Burka

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In the case of Hijab or niqab I would follow the opinion of the majority of scholars (from the past and the present),followed by majority of muslims...

It is that niqab isn't obligatory..

I'm not going to refute ,the niqab is obligatory opinion (which I believe to be easy task,was done by infamous scholars eg; Al-Albani,the great muhadith ) just I advice the sisters who believe niqab is obligatory not to give the impression that such opinion represents Islam,or a school versus another school...... it is,again majority versus minorty opinion......

peace
read the opinion of classical scholars, not modern. Niqab is Islamic and will remain Islamic. You cannot take the right from our niqabi sisters to call it Islamic.
 
Quran

''O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around the whole of their bodies.that will be better for them so they are known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed.''

Quran 33:59




Hadith

"I covered my face with my garment from him"(reported by Al-Bukhaaree)

"She would drop the garment from her head over her face".(Reported by Abu Dawood)

"We used to cover our faces from the men"(reported Al-Haakim).
 
Quran

''O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the believing women to draw their outer garments around the whole of their bodies.that will be better for them so they are known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed.''

Quran 33:59




Hadith

"I covered my face with my garment from him"(reported by Al-Bukhaaree)

"She would drop the garment from her head over her face".(Reported by Abu Dawood)

"We used to cover our faces from the men"(reported Al-Haakim).

Still, its a minority opinion, brother! :p Few umm al momineen vs millions of muslimahs. :p
 
You said you would follow the opinion followed by majority of muslims?

In the case of Hijab ,then yes....


I also follow the opinion of niqab not being obligatory, but it is without a doubt recommendable .

and I have no problem with that ,it is recommended if place,time of fitnah (mischief)...... but the fact that nowadays the fitnah basically comes not from those who wear hijab but those who wear neither hijab nor niqab.....

our priority now to encourage those to wear hijab..


peace
 
:sl:
In the case of Hijab or niqab I would follow the opinion of the majority of scholars (from the past and the present),followed by majority of muslims...

It is that niqab isn't obligatory..

I'm not going to refute ,the niqab is obligatory opinion (which I believe to be easy task,was done by infamous scholars eg; Al-Albani,the great muhadith ) just I advice the sisters who believe niqab is obligatory not to give the impression that such opinion represents Islam,or a school versus another school...... it is,again majority versus minorty opinion......

peace


you do know that many sahabas and scholars including the 4 imams considered it obligatory and the verses referring to the face (there is disagreement as to whether imam abu hanifa considered it obligatory, the general opinion is he did too though)...would you by any chance have any statements from sahabahs indicating what you say?

Originally Posted by Supreme
I know, but if women should cover their faces, surely men should to?
forget the issue of veil for a minute. lets look at attraction differences in men and women. it is known that men look for visual attraction in women firstly/and this isnt really the case for women. would you agree or not?

Still, its a minority opinion, brother! Few umm al momineen vs millions of muslimahs
not only the wives wore it, the women of the muhajireen and ansar wore it too when the ayahs were revealed. so the Vs is actually
understanding of women and men around Muhammed :arabic5: Vs understanding of women today :p
 
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In the case of Hijab ,then yes....

Do then if I bring you evidence from satistics and from polls that muslims think that eating pig is permissible then you follow that opinion?


and I have no problem with that ,it is recommended if place,time of fitnah (mischief)......

Brother since when did Islamic rulings depend on circumstances? (apart from cases of necessity).

The Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “you must adhere to my Sunnah and the way of the Rightly Guided Caliphs. Hold on to it and cling fast to it. And beware of newly-invented matters, for every newly-invented matter is an innovation and every innovation is a going astray.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (4607)

but the fact that nowadays the fitnah basically comes not from those who wear hijab but those who wear neither hijab nor niqab.....


peace

Yeah, though there are those who put tight jeans etc.
 
According to Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Malik and Imam Shafi'i, woman's awrah is her body except face and hands. But I don't know yet what Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal's view about it.
 
not that it is important or I care about but show me that question in your first post if you are not a liar

Sure:


Why do some women wear the burka?
Don't want to go into details in this point but we are not talking about whether they are referenced in the Qur'an or whether scholars accept it. It was a grave error on your part for making a distinction between two topics by saying that one is integral part of Islam and other is not.

OK, let us talk about what integral means. It means necessary, and not complete without. If the Burkha is an integral part of Islam, why are so many Muslim women not complete in their faith by wearing it? Are they still proper, 'complete' Muslims?

huh? You said that a certain space (of body) should be covered and I am asking you 2 simple questions: 1) how much and 2) who decides it?

How much depends on the culture, and the leaders of that culture decide. However, there are subjective extremes- a bikini is a revealing bit of clothing whether you're Western or Islamic, a Burkha is a concealing bit of clothing whether you're Western or Muslim- only the social acceptability of these clothes change.

you are very slow and master at ignoring the key points, aren't you? You stated/implied, one way or the other, that burka (generlally speaking Islamic dress code for women) is sexist. Yet, when it was asked how and why, you run around with same flawed claims. Before we go into rational of wearing burka, we need to decide who we are going to follow in regard to acceptable dress code. I have asked you at least 4-5 times already so why can't you answer a simple question? Moreover, what is the rational for wearing any clothes at all? What is the rationale for Marry (peace be upon her) to cover herself by dressing modestly? Was she also wearing sexist clothing and coming out as a sex object? How many of your women address like her? Lastly, the laws of the Creator are not based upon human rationale. As a Christian you should at least now this and abide by it.

It is sexist because it is a loose, massive, and generally billowy outfit designed specifically for women, but also because it pre-supposes women are sex objects and not a great deal else because the woman has to hide any *access* to her body from men who are not her husband, thus nullifying any physical femininity about her. In addition, it also is sexist in the way it assumes all men are somehow perverse, sexually obssessed rapists, and that the garment will somehow 'quench' such desires.
In case that's still too much for you to wrap your mind around, let me give you a little example:
Person A enjoys it when his trophy wife wears revealing dresses in public, just to show her off like a prized possession.
Person B explodes with jealousy at the mere thought of someone else seeing as much as a single hair of his wife, because he wants this prized possession all to himself.

Now, who treats his spouse as a full-fledged human being in this scenario? And which is more sexist?

Finally, rationale of Islamic dress code is to follow the command of the Lord and to be shy and dress modestly. Unlike you people, we operate on methodology of the Prophets, following the commands of the Creator, which extends to blocking any means to any evil.


And has it worked? Has the Burkha prevented evil, as you put it?

To be blunt, to a man, a woman's body is one of things to fulfill physical pleasure. Hence, one of things he seeks in her or thoughts he has about her is her physical body. You wanna label this is considering women as sex object, be my guest but we are not extreme like you.

Really? So all men are sex crazed rapists? I'd disagree with this fully, but let's assume it is the case; why aren't all females born with burkhas on already? Surely that'd be a better act of design by God, or even better, why create all men as sex crazed rapists in the first place?

so what? how is it relevant if it doesnt have thoughts and feelings? it is still valuable (extremely valuable). for crying out loud, use your imagination, instead of twisting the argument and making yourself look stupid.

A person is valuable, but not in the same way as gold. That is called objectifying women, ie comparing women to an object to justify actions regarding women, and it is a bad example at that.

You don't seem to be interested to change your views regarding the burqa Mmm... Dressing modesty is oppressing other's thoughts and hurting feelings, but dressing revealingly - the way you dress - makes you/your life less- oppressive???

Then change my mind about the Burkha. And I agree, both forms of clothing are oppressive.
 
Niqab is Islamic and will remain Islamic.

who said that niqab non-islamic? I said just don't make the impression that it is only represents Islam ,and that is what I feel whenever I read the arguments of those adhere to it...


_muslim_ said:
Do then if I bring you evidence from satistics and from polls that muslims think that eating pig is permissible then you follow that opinion?

and that is my point, facts should be taken through daleel not vote......
the validity of the prohibition of pork is based on the validity of the Quran proof text... not the opinions..

the proof text should always has the priority..

that is why I said (in the case of hijab) as there are some few other issues I disagree with the opinion of the majority (though never ruled out the possibility of the validity of their opinion)..

there must be those who disagree,but that is not our point of discussion now....

_muslim_ said:
Brother since when did Islamic rulings depend on circumstances?

you assume that niqab is a rule not a mustahab.

again I'm not attacking the niqab or those who wear it,I wish them all the best..and be rewarded if they think that what they do will bring them nearer to Allah....


amani said:
you do know that many sahabas and scholars including the 4 imams considered it obligatory .


I'm afraid you have been misinformed !


The school of Abu Hanifa


Abu Ja'far Ahmad ibn Muhammad At-Tahaawee,in his book Sharh Ma'ani al-Athar :



It is lawful for the people to look at the faces and the hands of women and that is the saying of Imam Abu Hanifa,and his students Abu yusuf and Mohamed ,may Allah bless their souls....


قال أبو جعفر الطحاوي في "شرح معاني الآثار" (2|392): «أبيح للناس أن ينظروا إلى ما ليس بمحرَّم عليهم من النساء إلى وجوههن وأكفهن، وحرم ذلك عليهم من أزواج النبي
وهو قول أبي حنيفة وأبي يوسف ومحمد رحمهم الله
».

other quotations regarding the hanafi opinion:


Imam Mohamed ben alhasan Alshaibany in his book Almabsot:


The opinion of Abu Hanifa is that the face and hands are not awrah.....................


جاء في "المبسوط" للإمام محمد بن الحسن الشيباني (3|56): «وأما المرأة الحرة التي لا نكاح بينه وبينها ولا حرمة ممن يحل له نكاحها، فليس ينبغي له أن ينظر إلى شيء منها مكشوفاً، إلا الوجه والكف. ولا بأس بأن ينظر إلى وجهها وإلى كفها. ولا ينظر إلى شيء غير ذلك منها. وهذا قول أبي حنيفة.



and


Alkasani in his book badai alsanai:

it is unlawful to look at the woman except the face and the hands............................

بدائع الصنائع للكاسانى ج4 ص 266 : (لا يحل النظر للأجنبى من الأجنبية الحرة إلا إلى مواقع الزينة الظاهرة و هى الوجه و الكفان ، رخص بقوله تعالى : (ولا يبدين زينتهن إلا ما ظهر منها) (النور: 31) .والمراد من الزينة الظاهرة هى الوجه و الكفان ، فالكحل زينة الوجه و الخاتم زينة الكف، ولأنها تحتاج إلى البيع و الشراء و الأخذ و العطاء ولا يمكنها ذلك عادة إلا بكشف الوجه و الكفين فيحل لها الكشف وهذا رأى أبى حنيفة رضى الله عنه ، وروى الحسن عن أبى حنيفة أنه يحل النظر إلى القدمين أيضاً


and


قال المرغينانى من الحنفية : (وبدن الحرة كلها عورة إلا وجهها وكفيها ) ، لقوله صلى الله عليه وسلم : ( المرأة عورة مستورة) واستثناء العضوين للابتداء بإبدائهما




and

ذكره الشيباني في "المبسوط" (3|56) واختاره,



and


وكذلك السرخسي في كتابه المبسوط (10/152-153


and



قال ابن هبيرة الحنبلي في " الإفصاح" (1/118-حلب):

" واختلفوا في عورة المرأة الحرة وحدِّها فقال أبو حنيفة: كلها عورة إلا الوجه والكفين والقدمين. وقد روي عنه أن قدميها عورة

etc..............................................


The school of Malik:


his student Abdul rahman ben alqasem narrated:

روى عنه صاحبه عبد الرحمن بن القاسم المصري في "المدونة" (2/221) نحو قول الغمام محمد في المحرمة إذا أرادت أن تسدل على وجهها وزاد في البيان فقال:

" فإن كانت لا تريد ستراً فلا تسدل".

ونقله ابن عبد البر في " التمهيد" (15-111) وارتضاه.

وقال بعد أن ذكر تفسير ابن عباس وابن عمر لآية: {إلا ما ظهر منها} بالوجه والكفين (6/369):

" وعلى قول ابن عباس وابن عمر الفقهاء في هذا الباب. (قال (هذا ما جاء في المرأة وحكمها في الاستتار في صلاتها وغير صلاتها". تأمل قوله:" وغير صلاتها"!


وفي " الموطأ" رواية يحيى (2/935):
" سئل مالك: هل تأكل المرأة مع غير ذي محرم منها أو مع غلامها؟ فقال مالك: ليس بذلك بأس إذا كان ذلك على وجه ما يُعرفُ للمرأة أن تأكل معه من الرجال قال: وقد تأكل المرأة مع زوجها ومع غيره ممن يؤاكله".
قال الباجي في" المنتفى شرح الموطأ" (7/252) عقب هذا النص:
" يقضي أن نظر الرجل إلى وجه المرأة وكفيها مباح لأن ذلك يبدو منها عند مؤاكلتها".


and

قال الشيخ ابن خلف الباجى فى المنتقى شرح الموطأ ، ج4 ص 105 / (وجميع المرأة عورة إلا وجهها وكفيها).


and

نقل ابن حجر الهيثمى فى تحفة المحتاج شرح المنهاج ج7 ص 193 ، عن القاضى عياض أن المرأة غير ملتزمة بستر وجهها إجماعاً حيث قال : (نقل المصنف عن عياض الإجماع على أنه لا يلزمها فى طريقها ستر وجهها ، وإنما هو سنة وعلى الرجال غض البصر عنهن للآية).



and

قال حافظ المغرب ابن عبد البر فى التمهيد ج 6 ص 364 ، 365 ، 366 : (قال مالك و أبو حنيفة و الشافعى و أصحابهم ، وهو قول الأوزاعى و أبى ثور: على المرأة أن تغطى منها ما سوى وجهها وكفيها ، إجماع العلماء على أن للمرأة أن تصلى المكتوبة ، و يداها ووجهها مكشوف ، ذلك كله منها تباشر الأرض به و أجمعوا على أن لا تصلى منتقبة، و لا عليها أن تلبس قفازين ، و فى هذا أوضح دليل على أن ذلك منها غير عورة).


The school of Imam Alshafi:


Imam al-Shafi` himself in his book Al-Umm wrote, "All a woman's body is awrah with the exception of her hands and her face. The top of her feet is also awrah".

Another Shafi`i scholar

Imam Fakhr ad-Din Razi (d. 606 A.H. which is 1209 C.E.), who wrote, "Since the showing of the face and hands is necessary, the fuqaha had no choice but to agree that they are not awra".



Ben hubairah,in his book Al-efsaah wrote:

They disagreed regarding woman's awrah ..Abu Hanifa said the woman all awrah with the exception of the face and hands, Malik and Shafi ,held the same opinion.....

قال ابن هبيرة الحنبلي في " الإفصاح" (1/118-حلب):
" واختلفوا في عورة المرأة الحرة وحدِّها فقال أبو حنيفة: كلها عورة إلا الوجه والكفين والقدمين. وقد روي عنه أن قدميها عورة وقال مالك الشافع: كلها عورة إلا وجهها وكفيها وهو قول أحمد في إحدى روايتيه والرواية الأخرى: كلها عورة إلا وجهها وخاصة. وهي المشهورة واختارها الخرقي".


Ibn abdul bar wrote in his book Altamhid:

the saying that woman is awrah except the face and hands belongs to the three founders of madhabs and their students, and also the saying of al-awzai and abi thawr...

قال ابن عبد البر في "التمهيد" (6/364) - وقد ذكر أن المرأة كلها عورة إلا الوجه والكفين وأنمه قول الائمة الثلاثة وأصحابهم وقول الأوزاعي وأبي ثور


and

قال الإمام النووى فى المجموع ج3 ص 175 : (وعورة المرأة جميع بدنها إلا الوجه والكفين).
وقال أيضاً : المشهور من مذهبنا أن عورة الحرة جميع بدنها إلا الوجه والكفين .. وبهذا كله قال مالك وطائفة ، وهى رواية عن أحمد ، وممن قال عورة الحرة جميع بدنها إلا الوجه والكفين الأوزاعى وأبو ثور ، وقال أبو حنيفة والثورى والمزنى : قدماها أيضاً ليسا بعورة ، وقال أحمد : جميع بدنها إلا وجهها فقط.


and


قال ابن قدامة فى المغنى ج1 ص 522 : (قال أبو حنيفة القدمان ليسا من العورة لأنهما يظهران غالباً فهما كالوجه ، وقال مالك والأوزاعى والشافعى جميع المرأة عورة إلا وجهها وكفيها


If only one native Arab speaker would help translate the material with me,it would be so much appreciated...

the fact is that, The majority of imams — including those of the four schools of fiqh(with the exception of Ibn hanbal) hold the opinion that a woman is not obliged to cover her face and hands...


to be continued
 
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would you by any chance have any statements from sahabahs indicating what you say?

Ibn Abbas (may Peace Be Upon Him) with reference to Surah An-Nur “except only that which is apparent” as Ibn Kathir narrated with a Sahih (authentic) chain of narrators, said it’s "The hand, the ring, and the face." Abdullah Ibn Omar Ibn Al-Khattab (ra) said “the face and the two hands”. Anas Ibn Malik (ra) said “the hand and the ring”. Ibn Hazm said: “all of this (statements) are in the highest of accuracy. And so are statements by Ali (ra), Aisha (ra), and other Tabi’een”.
 
I don't think niqab is obligatory, and what was expected from the mothers of the believers isn't necessarily what is expected from the rest of the Muslim women. Be that as it may, I don't think anyone should force a woman to take off or put on clothes by some ridiculous secular mandate. I wonder if they realize where they are headed with a bill like that.. if people kowtow to this in the future they might pass another mandate that is equally absurd.. people should wear what they believe is best for them.

btw even more ridiculous than france a secular godless country, is Egypt for passing a fatwa forcing Muslims sisters from wearing the niqab and even those who simply cover with a surgical mask force them to have it removed, disallow them from entrance into universities etc...

we should start with our end of the spectrum, I don't expect much from hedonistic countries anyway.. but what is our excuse?
 
Whether or not the Niqab is obligatory is a fiqhi issue, about which there is a difference of opinion amongst mainstream scholars with some holding the position that it is indeed obligatory and others holding the view that it is merely recommended.

Since the OP has probably got the idea by now and, in accordance with forum rule #12 which states:
This is not a Fiqh discussion board. Prolonged threads arguing over Fatwas and the details of Islamic law will be closed.
this thread will now be closed.
 
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