hmmm ^o) Definition of Kill: Cause the death of (a person, animal, or other living thing). Whether Jesus was raised from the dead or not is a separate issue, but I think we can agree that he first had to have died (was killed) in order to be later resurrected. Do you not believe that Jesus was as dead from a spear thrust to his side while on the cross as John the Baptist was when his head was brought to Herod on a platter?
Can God Become A Man??
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You've probably seen it before, MustafaMc. If it's a friendly argument you're after then I'm afraid I don't have the board presence for it these days. I've kind of been doing my own thing. But when you see why I've been away, and what project I've been working on to keep myself busy because of it, you'll know why. I can only hope that some people will be pleasantly surprised.
Suffice to say Idris was "raised to a high station", and this is generally how the verse has been interpreted, especially due to the Enoch parallel and all the extra-Koranic traditions that have arisen surrounding the notion. If you want to interpret the verse in a different way then that's fine.
Suffice to say Idris was "raised to a high station", and this is generally how the verse has been interpreted, especially due to the Enoch parallel and all the extra-Koranic traditions that have arisen surrounding the notion. If you want to interpret the verse in a different way then that's fine.
glo
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I see that I have caused some confusion. ;D
Of course the traditional positions are clear:
Christians believe that Jesus died on the cross, was buried and rose to life again.
Muslim believe that Jesus did not die on the cross in the first place, but it was made to look like he did.
I was just interested to hear a group of people come up with a different interpretation of the Qu'ranic verses, which seemed to marry up the Christian view that Jesus did die without attributing divine qualities to him or going as far as believing in the resurrection.
Anyway, has this taken the thread off topic? :embarrass
I merely asked for an ayat or hadith, but I should have just searched for it. I did find this, "And make mention in the Scripture of Idris. Lo! he was a saint, a prophet; And We raised him to high station." Quran 19:56-57 and from http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2673&Itemid=75 "Allah complimented Idris for being a truthful Prophet and He mentioned that he raised him to a high station. It has previously been mentioned that in the Sahih it is recorded that the Messenger of Allah passed by Idris on the night of the Isra (Night Journey) and he (Idris) was in the fourth heaven. Sufyan reported from Mansur that Mujahid said, (And We raised him to a high station.) "This means the fourth heaven.'' Al-Hasan and others said concerning Allah's statement, (And We raised him to a high station.) "This means Paradise.''
Yes, Prophet Muhammad (saaws) met Idris in Heaven during his ascension, but so also did he meet Adam, Jesus, Yahya, Joseph, Aaron, Moses, and Abraham. I understand that of this later list, only Jesus is believed to have not died. If Idris is believed to have not died, then I am not aware of that. If you have a hadith to share stating that he did not die, then I am interested in reading it.
glo, the interpretation that you postulated calls for an extreme twisting of words in the Qur'an that have an obvious, simple meaning to me. It seemed that you were also doing so with saying, "They did not kill Jesus". This appears to me along the lines of trying to get me to see that white is black and black is white, if you know what I mean. You may have had a different intention, but that is how it seemed to me. Whether Jesus actually died and was resurrected is a different question than the opening one for this thread though they are probably not so different to you.
Mustafa2012
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Say (O Muhammad ): "He is Allah, (the) One.
"Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).
"He begets not, nor was He begotten;
"And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him." (Interpretation of the meaning of The Holy Qur'an 112:1-4)
Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He knows what happens to them (His creatures) in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter . And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. [This Verse is called Ayat-ul-Kursi.] (Interpretation of the meaning of The Holy Qur'an 2:255)
He is the First (nothing is before Him) and the Last (nothing is after Him), the Most High (nothing is above Him) and the Most Near (nothing is nearer than Him). And He is the All-Knower of every thing.
He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then Istawa (rose over) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). He knows what goes into the earth and what comes forth from it, what descends from the heaven and what ascends thereto. And He is with you (by His Knowledge) wheresoever you may be. And Allah is the All-Seer of what you do.
His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. And to Allah return all the matters (for decision).
He merges night into day (i.e. the decrease in the hours of the night is added into the hours of the day), and merges day into night (i.e. the decrease in the hours of the day is added into the hours of the night), and He has full knowledge of whatsoever is in the breasts. (Interpretation of the meaning of The Holy Qur'an 57:3-6)
He is Allah, than Whom there is La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He) the All-Knower of the unseen and the seen (open). He is the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
He is Allah than Whom there is La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He) the King, the Holy, the One Free from all defects, the Giver of security, the Watcher over His creatures, the All-Mighty, the Compeller, the Supreme. Glory be to Allah! (High is He) above all that they associate as partners with Him.
He is Allah, the Creator, the Inventor of all things, the Bestower of forms. To Him belong the Best Names . All that is in the heavens and the earth glorify Him. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. (Interpretation of the meaning of The Holy Qur'an 59:22-24)
"Allah-us-Samad (The Self-Sufficient Master, Whom all creatures need, He neither eats nor drinks).
"He begets not, nor was He begotten;
"And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him." (Interpretation of the meaning of The Holy Qur'an 112:1-4)
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Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He), the Ever Living, the One Who sustains and protects all that exists. Neither slumber, nor sleep overtake Him. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on earth. Who is he that can intercede with Him except with His Permission? He knows what happens to them (His creatures) in this world, and what will happen to them in the Hereafter . And they will never compass anything of His Knowledge except that which He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. And He is the Most High, the Most Great. [This Verse is called Ayat-ul-Kursi.] (Interpretation of the meaning of The Holy Qur'an 2:255)
---
He is the First (nothing is before Him) and the Last (nothing is after Him), the Most High (nothing is above Him) and the Most Near (nothing is nearer than Him). And He is the All-Knower of every thing.
He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then Istawa (rose over) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). He knows what goes into the earth and what comes forth from it, what descends from the heaven and what ascends thereto. And He is with you (by His Knowledge) wheresoever you may be. And Allah is the All-Seer of what you do.
His is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth. And to Allah return all the matters (for decision).
He merges night into day (i.e. the decrease in the hours of the night is added into the hours of the day), and merges day into night (i.e. the decrease in the hours of the day is added into the hours of the night), and He has full knowledge of whatsoever is in the breasts. (Interpretation of the meaning of The Holy Qur'an 57:3-6)
---
He is Allah, than Whom there is La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He) the All-Knower of the unseen and the seen (open). He is the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
He is Allah than Whom there is La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He) the King, the Holy, the One Free from all defects, the Giver of security, the Watcher over His creatures, the All-Mighty, the Compeller, the Supreme. Glory be to Allah! (High is He) above all that they associate as partners with Him.
He is Allah, the Creator, the Inventor of all things, the Bestower of forms. To Him belong the Best Names . All that is in the heavens and the earth glorify Him. And He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. (Interpretation of the meaning of The Holy Qur'an 59:22-24)
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They made not a just estimate of Allah such as is due to Him. And on the Day of Resurrection the whole of the earth will be grasped by His Hand and the heavens will be rolled up in His Right Hand. Glorified is He, and High is He above all that they associate as partners with Him! (Interpretation of the meaning of The Holy Qur'an 39:69)
IAmMuslim409
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Here are some verses from the Jewish Bible AKA Old Testament that prove God is NOT a man..
"To whom can you liken G-d; What likeness can you attribute to Him?" - Isaiah 40:18
"To whom can you liken Me that I should be his equal?' says the Holy One." -Isaiah 40:25
"Thus says the L-RD, 'The heavens are My 'throne,' and the earth My 'footstool;' What house can you build for Me? What place could be My resting place?" - Isaiah 66:1
"Really, would G-d dwell on earth with man? Behold, the heavens and the heaven of heavens can not contain You; Certainly not this House that I have built." - II Chronicles 6:18
"G-d is not a man that He should lie, nor a son of man that He should relent.." - Numbers 23:19
"I will not carry out My wrath, I will not recant and destroy Ephraim, for I am G-d and not a man, the Holy One in your midst; I will not enter a city." - Hosea 11:9
"For I am the ALL-TRANSCENDENT, and I do not change; Therefore you, sons of Jacob, you have not been destroyed." - Malachi 3:6
"Egypt is man and not G-d.." - Isaiah 31:3
"..sword of one who is NOT a man, and the sword of one who is NOT a human will consume him.." - Isaiah 31:8
"The sword of the L-RD..." - Isaiah 34:6
"To whom can you liken G-d; What likeness can you attribute to Him?" - Isaiah 40:18
"To whom can you liken Me that I should be his equal?' says the Holy One." -Isaiah 40:25
"Thus says the L-RD, 'The heavens are My 'throne,' and the earth My 'footstool;' What house can you build for Me? What place could be My resting place?" - Isaiah 66:1
"Really, would G-d dwell on earth with man? Behold, the heavens and the heaven of heavens can not contain You; Certainly not this House that I have built." - II Chronicles 6:18
"G-d is not a man that He should lie, nor a son of man that He should relent.." - Numbers 23:19
"I will not carry out My wrath, I will not recant and destroy Ephraim, for I am G-d and not a man, the Holy One in your midst; I will not enter a city." - Hosea 11:9
"For I am the ALL-TRANSCENDENT, and I do not change; Therefore you, sons of Jacob, you have not been destroyed." - Malachi 3:6
"Egypt is man and not G-d.." - Isaiah 31:3
"..sword of one who is NOT a man, and the sword of one who is NOT a human will consume him.." - Isaiah 31:8
"The sword of the L-RD..." - Isaiah 34:6