Catalan independence referendum

[Simple_Person]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41461032


The true face of democracy is FINALLY being shown and no way to hide it as internet reveals all the lies. All the so called pro-democratic countries being against democracy when it comes to a democracy being against their political interests.

Based on such world affairs, i say things are heading downwards very quickly according to Islamic eschatology. As when force is used on people who want to practice their democratic right through peaceful means because the "fundamental principle" of those so called democratic countries is build on democracy one can only conclude that people wake up from the dream of "freedom", "human rights" and "democracy"..all lies. Which also one can conclude that it means that people will lose faith in the current system called "democracy".

However when this belief of democracy being the ultimate way of having a good stable society, is shattered i only hold my breath as to what is coming...

We say we live in bad times, but sub'han'Allah it makes me remind of this hadith....

=========Hadith==========
" I came to 'Abdullah bin Amr bin Al-As while he was sitting in the shade of Kabah, and the people were gathered around him, and I heard him say: 'While we were with the Messenger of Allah on a journey, we stopped to camp, and some of us were pitching tents, some were competing in shooting arrows, and some were taking the animals out to race them. Then the caller of the Prophet called out: As-Salatu Jamiah (prayer is about to begin). So we gathered, and the Messenger of Allah stood up and addressed us. He said: There has a never been a prophet before me who was not obliged to tell his nation of what he knew was good for them, and to warn against that he knew was bad for them. With regard to Ummah of yours, soundness (of religious commitment) has been placed in its earlier generations, and the last of them will be afflicted with calamities and things that you dislike. Then there will come tribulations which will make the earlier ones pale into significances, and the believer will say: This will be then end of me, then relief will come. Then (more) tribulations will come and the believer will say: this will be the end of me, then relief will come. Whoever would like to be taken far away from the Fire and admitted to Paradise, let him die believing in Allah and the Last Day, and let him treat people as he would like to be treated. Whoever pledges to a ruler and gives him the grasp of his hand and the sincerity of his heart, the let him obey him as much as he can, and if another comes and challenges him, let them strike the neck of (i.e., kill) the second one."' He said: " I drew near to him and said: 'Did you hear the Messenger of Allah say that? He 'Yes, and quoted the Hadith without interruption (in the chain)

Source used: https://sunnah.com/nasai/39/43
=======================

A shocking thing to me is, how unaware people are of what is going on in the world and not even caring about. Muslims especially are so busy with day to day lives. When one even speaks about signs of the end times, Muslims brand you a lunatic. And sub'han'Allah what you often hear from even the serious among such people is that they say to you, "we will not witness those signs in our life time". This scares me the most of all the things, as such tribulations come when people do not expect them to come..with the biggest fitna of them all being dajjal.

https://www.rt.com/news/405272-cata..._medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome

 

[Singularity]

Excerpt:

https://www.aol.com/article/news/20...sh-with-defiant-voters-in-catalonia/23228929/

Hundreds injured as Spanish police clash with defiant voters in Catalonia
NBC news
SAPHORA SMITH AND MATT BRADLEY
Oct 1st 2017 4:14PM
BARCELONA, Spain — Hundreds were injured as armed police descended on some polling stations in Catalonia Sunday as defiant voters attempted to take part in a banned referendum on independence from Madrid.

As regional health officials announced on Sunday night that the number of people wounded had nearly doubled, rising from more than 460 to over 760, conservative Spanish Prime Minster Mariano Rajoy said that there had been no referendum because “the great majority of Catalans have decided not to participate.”

During a news conference, Rajoy added that “some have tried to break the rule of law, and we have answered with serenity and sanity.”

Meanwhile, in Catalonia's capital city, Barcelona, Mayor Ada Colau called for Rajoy's resignation, the AP reported, and demanded "an immediate end to police charges against the defenseless population."

"I call for a halt to the police actions that are taking place in our city at this very moment immediately because it is unacceptable that the police should be thrown against a populace that has mobilized to exercise its right to vote, that is behaving absolutely peacefully and is defenseless," she told reporters, according to a clip posted and translated by the Barcelona City Council on Twitter.

Jordi Turull, the spokesman for Catalonia's pro-independence government, said earlier that more than 300 people had been injured in clashes with Spanish police. While Spain’s interior ministry tweeted shortly after 1 p.m. local time (7 a.m. ET) that people had thrown objects at officers, and that so far nine policemen and two civil guards had been injured.

One person is in a critical condition at a hospital in Lleida, a town in western Catalonia, a spokesperson from the hospital confirmed.

In the region of Girona, Spanish officers scuffled with angry voters before smashing their way into a school being used as a polling station and seizing ballot boxes as voting began.

Armed police also clashed with voters outside some polling centers in Barcelona.

Rubber bullets were fired at protesters in the center of the city, the Associated Press reported, with people showing minor wounds to TV cameras.

The poll has no legal status, as it has been blocked by Spain’s Constitutional Court and Madrid for being at odds with the 1978 constitution, but tens of thousands of voters were still expected to take part.

Carles Puigdemont, the head of the regional government, said Spain had used “unjustified, irrational and irresponsible violence,” adding that it wouldn’t stop Catalans voting “peacefully and democratically.”

He said batons and rubber bullets had been used against people who were protecting ballot papers and polling stations.

“Today Spain has lost even more that it had lost until now and the citizens of Catalonia we’ve achieved even more than we’ve had achieved till now,” he said.

Spanish deputy prime minister Soraya Saenz de Santamaria said Madrid intervened with "firmness and proportionality" against the Catalan vote, adding that the regional government had behaved with absolute irresponsibility in holding the referendum, according to the Associated Press.

But Juho Romakkaniemi, a senior European Union official, tweeted that while it was "clear" the Spanish government was legally right about the Catalan referendum, "excessive actions may endanger its legitimacy."

 

[anatolian]

Useless. They already have right to speak their language. Why the need for independance?

 

[Futuwwa]

The true face of democracy is FINALLY being shown and no way to hide it as internet reveals all the lies. All the so called pro-democratic countries being against democracy when it comes to a democracy being against their political interests.

Who is being against democracy? The Spanish state, or the Catalan secessionists?

 

[Simple_Person]

Useless. They already have right to speak their language. Why the need for independance?

Go ask them, typical Turkish behavior sorry to say this, but if THEY want independence who are you or me to say ..they are wrong? Maybe you are lacking a bit of empathy to understand them ..i don't know..it just could be.

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Who is being against democracy? The Spanish state, or the Catalan secessionists?

Based on logic, one could say the Spanish state. These people want to practice their democratic right, so they are not being let to do it. Usually modern day countries are being held together by something called nationalism, however this glue called nationalism has somehow lost it's use in some parts of the world. Which you see clearly.

 

[Futuwwa]

What democratic right? Sovereignty over the entire territory of Spain belongs to the Spanish state, which belongs equally to all its citizens, regardless of place of residence. How is it democratic that a small minority of the citizenry decide to separate a part of that territory against the objections of the overwhelming majority of the citizens?

 

[Simple_Person]

What democratic right? Sovereignty over the entire territory of Spain belongs to the Spanish state, which belongs equally to all its citizens, regardless of place of residence. How is it democratic that a small minority of the citizenry decide to separate a part of that territory against the objections of the overwhelming majority of the citizens?

So let me confirm how i have understood your comment and do correct me if i have understood it incorrectly.

So based on this you say the majority how unfair and unjust it even is towards that minority, has based on democracy still all the power over you and should stay like this? As that is currently the case according the the original inhabitants of Catalonia.

 

[anatolian]

Go ask them, typical Turkish behavior sorry to say this, but if THEY want independence who are you or me to say ..they are wrong? Maybe you are lacking a bit of empathy to understand them ..i don't know..it just could be.

I didnt say wrong, but I said useless. I need to know all the details to decide whether it is wrong or not. But it is definitely useless. I know that they have their own federative governemnt and parliement. They have their minority identity and language. You will have the same things when you are independant but as major not minor.

So, do you think that the central Spanish government is unjust towards the Catalans? Then how?

Also as Futuwwa stated, all of the Spanish citizents have the same right on Catalonia, at least all the civil welfare in Catalonia since they have been paid the same taxes and these taxes have been distributed to entire country including Catalonia. So even if the independacy is the case, all of the Spanish citizents must be given right to vote, not only the Catalans.

 

[Futuwwa]

So let me confirm how i have understood your comment and do correct me if i have understood it incorrectly.

So based on this you say the majority how unfair and unjust it even is towards that minority, has based on democracy still all the power over you and should stay like this? As that is currently the case according the the original inhabitants of Catalonia.

I'm not taking any position on the morality of things being the way they are. I'm contesting your assertion that it's objectively undemocratic that the population of Catalonia aren't allowed to secede by a vote. It all depends on what you consider the legitimate entity to be subject to democratic rule by its constituents. You say it's regional (Catalonia, Kurdistan), others say it's whatever is currently a sovereign state.

 

[Simple_Person]

I didnt say wrong, but I said useless. I need to know all the details to decide whether it is wrong or not. But it is definitely useless. I know that they have their own federative governemnt and parliement. They have their minority identity and language. You will have the same things when you are independant but as major not minor.

So, do you think that the central Spanish government is unjust towards the Catalans? Then how?

Also as Futuwwa stated, all of the Spanish citizents have the same right on Catalonia, at least all the civil welfare in Catalonia since they have been paid the same taxes and these taxes have been distributed to entire country including Catalonia. So even if the independacy is the case, all of the Spanish citizents must be given right to vote, not only the Catalans.

As far as i have educated myself from their point of view as well as objective point of view is that for a long time the same discriminatory actions were forced upon them (Catalans) as what was done for example with the Kurds. The culture, language etc. to safeguard the Spanish identity.

So Spanish cultural habits being implemented in Catalonia to the dissatisfaction of the people there as they do not acknowledge it to be part of their culture.

The biggest issue that i have understood was that Catalonia province makes up for about 20% of the national financial input (GDP). However many people living in Catalonia are not satisfied about the amount of financial spending on Catalonia. So in other words the amount of money that Catalonia brings up only a very small percentage is given back. So all in all, they argue that we must separate from the corrupt Spanish. Which if one asks me is their right or not? I say they HAVE good arguments based on objectively analyzing it. The other thing that one can bring up is, have they done whatever is possible to do something about it? ..The logical answer is, well a referendum to separate from Spain rather looks like the ultimate solution if all other ones have not worked. So again, if somebody asks me, i say well a problem needs a solution. If all other options have been tried and the problem still exists, then this if they are happy with it, i can only agree with them. The people who are pro-government should rather look at their government as they are the problem apparently for the dissatisfaction of the Catalonia.

Now the whole defending of Spanish sovereignty. How come Kosovo declaring independence (2008) was supported by western powers as far as i have read? Isn't that going against sovereignty of a country then?

So something being useless or not, it is not for you or me to decide what is useless according to us. In every country the people need to be satisfied one way or the other. If people are not satisfied, one can expect 2 things. Civil war(2 groups - pro vs anti government)/revolution(1 group vs government) or separation. Often even if certain steps are met to satisfy the people, the biggest issue is the emotional pain has already been done, so based on emotion some people just do not want to be part of a country anymore. Even this i can understand. As for example if person X betrays the trust of person Y, then even if person X apologizes for it, when the bond of trust is broken there is no way to restore such ties. This is a typical emotional thing..but you can do whatever is in your power, but still not achieve old ties.

With Catalonia because of such aggressive stance against the referendum, it is driving people (Catalonian people) who even were against the referendum themselves becoming one with the already pro-referendum people. In other words making people even more determined to separate from the country they currently are part of.

This for example Turkey and Iran also are a bit afraid of by taking actual action themselves against the Kurds living in south Kurdistan (modern day northern Iraq). Because if they would do that, they rather are uniting the Kurds even on their parts with other Kurds (revolting against government). So now you heard things for example from Turkey and Iraq saying, "we are not against Kurdish people, but we are against the ones who are responsible for making the referendum possible". While the logical person would say, what has those people(people in power) to do with Kurds(population) wanting to be independent? They want to create this dissatisfaction between Kurds and the leaders. This is the psychological warfare they TRY to again apply so Kurds get disunited again and fight among each other. A logical person off course would see clearly through those lies as stopping food trucks and airplanes landing, is rather punishing the Kurdish population with it..so how come it is said they are not against Kurdish people? ..So all rather contradicting.

All in all, the firm stance of Spanish aggressive actions is uniting people to even be pro-Catalonia. It will come sooner or later, or Spain will fall in to civil war/chaos.

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I'm not taking any position on the morality of things being the way they are. I'm contesting your assertion that it's objectively undemocratic that the population of Catalonia aren't allowed to secede by a vote. It all depends on what you consider the legitimate entity to be subject to democratic rule by its constituents. You say it's regional (Catalonia, Kurdistan), others say it's whatever is currently a sovereign state.

Democracy is being portrayed as something wonderful. However referendums are the most PURE way of democracy. As i already said to anatolian, if some people or ethnicity is dissatisfied with the government doing things. Either the government MUST take direct actions to meet the demands or find a solution in the middle, or it goes very wrong.

If it is being ignored which you i guess have seen in some parts of the world, that those demands or dissatisfaction is not listened to, then the PURE way of democracy is their right to use..which is independence refenrendum. This for example you see with KRG (Kurdistan Regional Government) and Iraq. The Kurds said after so much oppression by Saddam Hussein we were glad that he was gone and a new beginning is about to start back in 2003. However the Kurds said the leadership in Baghdad went the same road. There was a Iraqi constitution, but the Iraqi leadership was cherry picking what they liked and left what they disliked. The Kurds said we tried every possible way, but continuously Baghdad did not work according to the constitution. So now we are going to have this referendum.

Now is the question, have the Kurds or even Catalonians, the right to do such a thing? The logical answer is, when you have a agreement or contract with somebody and that individual does not do things according that what you both agreed on, then that agreement or contract is automatically being nullified. This is just a logical step off course.

So one cannot say, well you cannot do your own thing that is against our agreement, but i can. This sub'han'Allah you also see with history of Islam and the treaty of Hudaybiyyah. As far as i have read is that even the Muslims when they escaped the Meccans and fled to Yathrib, Rasullah(saws) turned his back to them, because of the contract he signed with the Meccans. After that the Meccans themselves had broken the treaty by killing the Muslims.

 

[Mustafa16]

[MENTION=16149]anatolian[/MENTION] [MENTION=31766]Futuwwa[/MENTION] nation states are typically founded upon kinship ties, such as shared language, heritage, customs, history, ethnicity, etc. The Catalans are their own ethnic group, with their own history. Why should they be denied a state? surely people who are familiar with the PKK reasoning would know why the Catalans have even thought of this.

 

[Simple_Person]

@anatolian @Futuwwa nation states are typically founded upon kinship ties, such as shared language, heritage, customs, history, ethnicity, etc. The Catalans are their own ethnic group, with their own history. Why should they be denied a state? surely people who are familiar with the PKK reasoning would know why the Catalans have even thought of this.

What you concluded is rather empathy. Which indeed people who are oppressed can understand each other better. However following logic, rationality and reason one can also come to the same conclusion without even being oppressed themselves. So as there are people who besides not having the emphatic skills, but cannot come to the same conclusion using logic, rationality and reason says there is something else that is preventing them. What might this problem be? You will come to the conclusion is that the problem lies in the heart. When the fitrah is messed up, everything can be found a excuse to do.

This for example you see with many Turks. There are Turks among other Turks that have certain limit of "brainwashing" so to say. When the government for example does something that their fitrah finally wakes up they start to question. However some people based on nationalism are so brainwashed (love of nationalism) they will defend everything that represents nationalism..including the decisions made by the leadership of that country.

To make this less abstract, this for example as Muslims we also have it. When somebody attacks Islam, we say NO..Islam does absolutely NO injustice towards anybody including the criminal it self while we not know the exact reasoning yet. When one indeed with every aspect/ruling of Islam step by step investigates and studies the ruling so to say, you always come to a logical, rational and reasonable answer that is well backed up with good arguments and has NO injustice towards anybody including the criminal. But looking at people who their love for nationalism is so great, they do the same and will defend anything and everything even if there is absolutely no logical, rational and reasonable justified answered to do some action like killing innocent people.

This also you see for example with some Muslims who go to extremes, either being extreme-left (culture-"moderate"-Muslims) and extreme-right (people like ISIS by killing innocent people for example...)

So it's really is the heart that causes so much problems for us even being blind for the basic things, because we are ourselves so filthy within. When it comes to giving money to good causes (poor people for example) we rather give less, then give more. Or we think we have everything in our control, while our trust in Allah is superficial. Another aspect sadly there are these days Muslims especially that count themselves as i have done everything in my power and i am "clean". For such people awaits big punishment one could even argue, as they already based on their mindset have placed themselves in paradise. While the mu'min will never see him/herself as clean as there is always something to work on until you are in your grave.

 

[Simple_Person]

Like i said, the aggressive stance towards Catalonia created more unity among the Catalonian people.

News article: 700K protest Spain's referendum crackdown in Barcelona - local police (Photo, videos): https://www.rt.com/news/405586-thousands-protest-barcelona-catalonia/

Well that escalated quickly....

News article: Catalonia Plans to Proclaim Independence From Spain within Several Days: https://sputniknews.com/europe/201710041057921594-catalonia-proclaim-independence-soon/

I say good for them, who am i to object if it is what THEY want. Free will in everything is what i believe not just in religion.

 

[Futuwwa]

@anatolian @Futuwwa nation states are typically founded upon kinship ties, such as shared language, heritage, customs, history, ethnicity, etc. The Catalans are their own ethnic group, with their own history. Why should they be denied a state? surely people who are familiar with the PKK reasoning would know why the Catalans have even thought of this.

See first two sentences of post #9.

 

[Serinity]

I support, principally, the independence of Calistonia, regardless of them being 20% of the GDP of Spain.

and it does NOT need other states to acknowledge it for it to be a state, if we play the democracy game.

Allahu alam.

 

[Singularity]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...dependence-from-spain-on-monday-idUSKCN1C9109


#WORLD NEWSOCTOBER 4, 2017 / 2:12 AM / UPDATED 11 HOURS AGO
Catalonia moves to declare independence from Spain on Monday
Angus Berwick, Sonya Dowsett
7 MIN READ


BARCELONA/MADRID (Reuters) - Catalonia will move on Monday to declare independence from Spain after holding a banned referendum, pushing the European Union nation toward a rupture that threatens the foundations of its young democracy.


Catalan President Carles Puigdemont said he favored mediation to find a way out of the crisis but that Spain’s central government had rejected this. Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy’s government responded by calling on Catalonia to “return to the path of law” first before any negotiations.


Mireia Boya, a Catalan lawmaker from the pro-independence Popular Unity Candidacy (CUP) party, said a declaration of independence would follow a parliamentary session on Monday to evaluate the results of the Oct. 1 vote to break away.


“We know that there may be disbarments, arrests ... But we are prepared, and in no case will it be stopped,” she said on Twitter.
Puigdemont told the BBC he would ask the region’s parliament to declare independence following the referendum, which Spain’s government and constitutional court say was illegal and in which only a minority of Catalans voted.


In a televised address on Wednesday night, Puigdemont said: “This moment calls for mediation. We have received various offers in the last hours and we will receive more.”


Without specifically mentioning plans for an independence declaration, he added: ”I am sure that in the next few days we will show the best of our country when the institutions of Catalonia will have to apply the results of the referendum.


“Today we are closer than yesterday to our historic wish.”


Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy’s government replied that Puigdemont had wasted an opportunity to put Catalonia back on a legal course. “If Mr. Puigdemont wants to talk or negotiate, or wants to send mediators, he knows perfectly well what he must do first: Return to the path of the law,” it said in a statement.


Participants in the referendum opted overwhelmingly for independence, but turnout was only about 43 percent as Catalans who favor remaining part of Spain mainly boycotted the ballot.


Spain was only restored to democracy following the death in 1975 of military dictator Francisco Franco, under whom the Catalan language and traditions were suppressed.




FINANCIAL MARKETS HIT


The constitutional crisis in Spain, the euro zone’s fourth-biggest economy, has shaken the common currency and hit Spanish stocks and bonds. Madrid’s borrowing costs have risen sharply and reached their highest since March on Wednesday.


The cost of insuring against potential losses on Spanish bank debt and Spanish, Italian and Portuguese sovereign debt has also jumped, suggesting an impact on the wider euro zone.


Bank stocks were hit especially hard as the Ibex stock index .IBEX fell below 10,000 points on Wednesday for the first time since March 2015. In a sign of the nervous public mood, Catalonia's biggest bank, Caixabank (CABK.MC), and Spain's economy minister had earlier sought to assure bank customers that their deposits were safe.


Puigdemont criticized Spain’s King Felipe VI who on Tuesday lambasted the “irresponsible behavior” of the Catalan leaders.


He said the king had disappointed many people in Catalonia by failing to call for dialogue and he accused King Felipe of endorsing the policies of Rajoy, which he said had been “catastrophic” for Catalonia.


Catalan Regional President Carles Puigdemont gestures as he makes an statement at Generalitat Palace in Barcelona, Spain, October 4, 2017. Catalan Goverment/Jordi Bedmar Handout via REUTERS
The EU executive called again on Wednesday for the Spanish government and Catalan authorities to open a dialogue. “It’s time to talk,” the European Commission’s deputy head, Frans Timmermans, told the European Parliament.


Various attempts to find a mediated solution to the crisis emerged on Wednesday.Pablo Iglesias, leader of the left-wing Podemos party, proposed the Spanish and Catalan government try to agree on a mediator while the FC Barcelona football club said it had joined other groups in Catalonia seeking a negotiated solution.


Spanish media reports said the Catalan regional government had been in touch with senior church figures to sound out the possibility of them playing a mediating role.


But the Spanish government rejected mediation.


Rajoy told Iglesias that Puigdemont had to give up the idea of unilaterally declaring independence, a government source said. “That is not negotiable. You can’t deal with people who plan to blackmail the state so brutally,” the source added.


Slideshow (14 Images)
Rajoy, a conservative who has taken a hard line on Catalan independence, is considering the unprecedented step of dissolving the Catalan parliament and triggering regional elections, ruling party lawmakers say.


But he is struggling to secure support from across the traditional political divide - a lack of consensus that could compound Spain’s worst political crisis for decades.


POLICE REINFORCEMENTS STAYING ON?


In a sign that Spanish police reinforcements sent to Catalonia might be there for an extended stay, an army logistics unit sent bunkbeds, kitchens and showers to an army barracks near Barcelona in case the police need to use the military base at some point, a Ministry of Defence spokesman said.


Some police staying at hotels in Catalonia have come under pressure from local residents to leave.


Spain has been jolted by the Catalan vote and the Spanish police response to it, with batons and rubber bullets used to prevent people voting. Hundreds were injured in scenes that brought international condemnation.


Catalans came out onto the streets on Tuesday to condemn the police action, shutting down traffic, public transport and businesses, and stoking fears about intensifying unrest in a region that makes up one-fifth of the Spanish economy.


“As a businessman, as a Spaniard and as a person, I am very worried and I am scared by what’s going on (in Catalonia),” said Juan Roig, chairman of Spain’s biggest food retailer Mercadona.


Pro-independence parties that control the Catalan government staged the referendum in defiance of a Constitutional Court ruling that the vote violated Spain’s 1978 constitution, which states that the country is indivisible.


Catalonia has its own language and culture and a political movement for secession that has strengthened in recent years.


Outside Catalonia, most Spaniards appear strongly opposed to its independence drive.


Opinion polls conducted before the vote suggested a minority of around 40 percent of residents in Catalonia backed independence. But a majority wanted a referendum to be held, and the violent police crackdown angered Catalans across the divide.


Additional reporting by Adrian Croft, Julien Toyer Tomas Cobos and Carlos Ruano in Madrid, Michael Nienaber in Berlin; Writing by Mark Bendeich and Sonya Dowsett; Editing by Julien Toyer and Mark Heinrich
Our Standards:The Thomson Reuters Trust Principles.

 

[anatolian]

As far as i have educated myself from their point of view as well as objective point of view is that for a long time the same discriminatory actions were forced upon them (Catalans) as what was done for example with the Kurds. The culture, language etc. to safeguard the Spanish identity.

So Spanish cultural habits being implemented in Catalonia to the dissatisfaction of the people there as they do not acknowledge it to be part of their culture.

The biggest issue that i have understood was that Catalonia province makes up for about 20% of the national financial input (GDP). However many people living in Catalonia are not satisfied about the amount of financial spending on Catalonia. So in other words the amount of money that Catalonia brings up only a very small percentage is given back. So all in all, they argue that we must separate from the corrupt Spanish. Which if one asks me is their right or not? I say they HAVE good arguments based on objectively analyzing it. The other thing that one can bring up is, have they done whatever is possible to do something about it? ..The logical answer is, well a referendum to separate from Spain rather looks like the ultimate solution if all other ones have not worked. So again, if somebody asks me, i say well a problem needs a solution. If all other options have been tried and the problem still exists, then this if they are happy with it, i can only agree with them. The people who are pro-government should rather look at their government as they are the problem apparently for the dissatisfaction of the Catalonia.

Now the whole defending of Spanish sovereignty. How come Kosovo declaring independence (2008) was supported by western powers as far as i have read? Isn't that going against sovereignty of a country then?

So something being useless or not, it is not for you or me to decide what is useless according to us. In every country the people need to be satisfied one way or the other. If people are not satisfied, one can expect 2 things. Civil war(2 groups - pro vs anti government)/revolution(1 group vs government) or separation. Often even if certain steps are met to satisfy the people, the biggest issue is the emotional pain has already been done, so based on emotion some people just do not want to be part of a country anymore. Even this i can understand. As for example if person X betrays the trust of person Y, then even if person X apologizes for it, when the bond of trust is broken there is no way to restore such ties. This is a typical emotional thing..but you can do whatever is in your power, but still not achieve old ties.

With Catalonia because of such aggressive stance against the referendum, it is driving people (Catalonian people) who even were against the referendum themselves becoming one with the already pro-referendum people. In other words making people even more determined to separate from the country they currently are part of.

This for example Turkey and Iran also are a bit afraid of by taking actual action themselves against the Kurds living in south Kurdistan (modern day northern Iraq). Because if they would do that, they rather are uniting the Kurds even on their parts with other Kurds (revolting against government). So now you heard things for example from Turkey and Iraq saying, "we are not against Kurdish people, but we are against the ones who are responsible for making the referendum possible". While the logical person would say, what has those people(people in power) to do with Kurds(population) wanting to be independent? They want to create this dissatisfaction between Kurds and the leaders. This is the psychological warfare they TRY to again apply so Kurds get disunited again and fight among each other. A logical person off course would see clearly through those lies as stopping food trucks and airplanes landing, is rather punishing the Kurdish population with it..so how come it is said they are not against Kurdish people? ..So all rather contradicting.

All in all, the firm stance of Spanish aggressive actions is uniting people to even be pro-Catalonia. It will come sooner or later, or Spain will fall in to civil war/chaos.

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Democracy is being portrayed as something wonderful. However referendums are the most PURE way of democracy. As i already said to anatolian, if some people or ethnicity is dissatisfied with the government doing things. Either the government MUST take direct actions to meet the demands or find a solution in the middle, or it goes very wrong.

If it is being ignored which you i guess have seen in some parts of the world, that those demands or dissatisfaction is not listened to, then the PURE way of democracy is their right to use..which is independence refenrendum. This for example you see with KRG (Kurdistan Regional Government) and Iraq. The Kurds said after so much oppression by Saddam Hussein we were glad that he was gone and a new beginning is about to start back in 2003. However the Kurds said the leadership in Baghdad went the same road. There was a Iraqi constitution, but the Iraqi leadership was cherry picking what they liked and left what they disliked. The Kurds said we tried every possible way, but continuously Baghdad did not work according to the constitution. So now we are going to have this referendum.

Now is the question, have the Kurds or even Catalonians, the right to do such a thing? The logical answer is, when you have a agreement or contract with somebody and that individual does not do things according that what you both agreed on, then that agreement or contract is automatically being nullified. This is just a logical step off course.

So one cannot say, well you cannot do your own thing that is against our agreement, but i can. This sub'han'Allah you also see with history of Islam and the treaty of Hudaybiyyah. As far as i have read is that even the Muslims when they escaped the Meccans and fled to Yathrib, Rasullah(saws) turned his back to them, because of the contract he signed with the Meccans. After that the Meccans themselves had broken the treaty by killing the Muslims.

If the sovereign state is cruel to that specific minority just because of their ethnicity, they have right to demand independance. That's the case for Kosovans. Serbia had been proven as a genocidial country towards it's Muslim minorities very recently. If that's not the case, as in Catalonia, either the entire nation, majority and minority, must agree on this independance or that specific minority demanding independance must pay a compensation to the rest of the nation.

 

[Simple_Person]

If the sovereign state is cruel to that specific minority just because of their ethnicity, they have right to demand independance. That's the case for Kosovans. Serbia had been proven as a genocidial country towards it's Muslim minorities very recently. If that's not the case, as in Catalonia, either the entire nation, majority and minority, must agree on this independance or that specific minority demanding independance must pay a compensation to the rest of the nation.

If a state does not listen to the minority or the problem of that minority/give the rights of that minority, that leaves also no other choice. Barzani (president of KRG) made for example in his speech a good point. In the past with Halabja genocide and Anfal genocide, many Kurds were killed. That was the typical dictatorial behavior of Saddam Hussein. Barzani in his speech talked about that they thought after 2003 new people who also were oppressed by Saddam Hussein (Shia Arabs) would understand the Kurds (also oppressed) and thus show different leadership. However he said that after 2003, the new people in power followed the same behavior as the previous dictator, by not doing according to the agreement (constitution) and thus we want to prevent another Halabja-genocide and Anfa-genocide. That is why we choose our own way instead of being part of the anarchy that Baghdad has caused.

Now Kurds have good argument based on logic and rationality and not because i says so, we now look at the Spain and Catalonia. If you look at the brutality how things were going during the Catalonian referendum, you see people as if they are dolls.. A person is a wise person if they BEFORE genocide happens take the high way. There are enough signs that give you that clear view. Which i believe in this case with Catalonia was their referendum, as apparently they already have done what needs to be done and nothing has changed. If something does not change while you clearly have made it known, those are signs of dictatorial tendencies.

What you make it look like is to let people be beaten up, killed etc, before they say we seek independence. Which to me but to any rational human being is very unwise to begin with. Islam itself for example is a religion of prevention, instead of healing. If you look at all the rulings is ALL about preventing something to happen. In other words, the mindset of a human being should be focused on preventing awful things to happen instead of healing form it.

The majority of a country will NEVER agree for independence of a minority, you KNOW it self. If a minority seeks independence, it means a few things. Fewer inhabitants of that country (less GDP, less military power, less ground, less fossil fuel, and what i forgot to say..) About compensation, i believe Catalonia will have to carry 1/5 debt of the country which is what i have read (200 billion euro) if there is also the case of compensation for being independent, i am not sure, however if you look at the case of Catalonia. What i have read is that Spain got 20% from their GDP every year from Catalonia alone, and invested less back in to Catalonia. Maybe all those years Spain got their compensation more than enough. About the debt i can agree off course. One cannot say goodbye and leaving all the burden with somebody else. You were part of a group and should also carry your share of the burden.

 

[Singularity]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/thousa...ce=cx_picks&cx_tag=video&cx_artPos=2#cxrecs_s
Thousands Rally in Barcelona Against Catalan Independence
High turnout represents rare show of strength for pro-union movement


Thousands of Protesters March in Barcelona
Thousands of people rallied on Sunday in central Barcelona to protest plans by Catalonia's regional government to secede from Spain. Photo: Getty Images
By Jeannette Neumann and Giovanni Legorano
Updated Oct. 8, 2017 9:16 a.m. ET
37 COMMENTS
BARCELONA—Hundreds of thousands of Spaniards gathered in Barcelona on Sunday to decry Catalonia’s secessionist push, a bid by pro-union groups to build momentum against a unilateral declaration of independence that could come as soon as this week.


The demonstration in central Barcelona, the capital of Spain’s Catalonia region, is a rare show of strength for the pro-union movement, whose gatherings have typically attracted several thousand protesters in recent years, compared with the hundreds of thousands routinely mobilized by pro-independence groups.


On Sunday, though, Barcelona’s streets were filled with an atypical sight: people waving red-and-yellow Spanish flags, unfurled alongside Catalan regional flags.


“For some time now, nationalism has been wreaking havoc in Catalonia and that’s why we’re here, to stop it,” Nobel Literature Prize laureate Mario Vargas Llosa told the 930,000 people gathered, according to organizers. Local police in Barcelona put that figure at closer to 350,000. Such discrepancies are common.


“We are fed up with this situation. We haven’t been out on the street until now, but this time around has been so surreal, so unfair, that we had to do something,” Juan Maldonado, a 52-year-old electrician from Barcelona said, as people chanted “here are the other Catalans.”


Polls by the region’s survey agency indicate that more than a third of Catalans support an independent Catalonia, although sentiment could have shifted following the Oct. 1 independence referendum, which was marred by clashes between police and voters and declared illegal by Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy.


Catalan President Carles Puigdemont is expected to address Catalonia’s regional parliament on Tuesday and could make a declaration of independence.


“We will prevent independence from materializing,” Mr. Rajoy said in an interview published Sunday by top Spanish daily El País. “I can say with absolute frankness that it won’t happen.” He said he didn’t rule out invoking constitutional powers that would allow him to seize control of the regional Catalan government.


Lawmakers who led Sunday’s demonstration were mainly from Mr. Rajoy’s center-right Popular Party and from centrist Ciudadanos.


Tens of thousands of people had also gathered across Spain on Saturday, many dressed in white, to call for talks between political leaders to resolve the country’s greatest political crisis in decades.
People stand behind a banner during a pro-union demonstration in Barcelona on Sunday. PHOTO: GONZALO FUENTES/REUTERS
The pro-union march on Sunday adds to building momentum against secession, putting additional pressure on moderate separatists to seek another route, such as pulling back and focusing on talks with the central government or calling new regional elections. Some lawmakers in Catalonia’s parliament, where separatists have a majority of seats, say new elections could increase their representation in the assembly and strengthen their hand in potential talks with Madrid.


Last week, several flagship Catalan companies, such as CaixaBank SA and Gas Natural SDG SA, said they were shifting their legal headquarters outside of Catalonia on fears of a declaration of independence. Investors had punished their share prices for being based in the restive region. Although the moves are largely symbolic, simply requiring more board meetings in the cities they choose to move to, the announcements still dealt a blow to moderate separatists who had promised supporters that such moves wouldn’t happen.


Emiliano Valmorisco, a 36-year-old bus driver, was holding up a sign warning about the impact of companies leaving Catalonia. “We have just been through the crisis and we are worried again for the economy,” he said. Spain is four years into a robust economic recovery after a deep recession triggered by a real estate boom gone bust.


One organizer of Sunday’s demonstration, which calls for a “return to reason,” said the gathering would be a “catharsis” for many pro-union Catalans who say they have felt impotent during the past several weeks as Catalan authorities prepared for and then staged a referendum that was suspended by a top Spanish court and which the central government in Madrid says violates the constitution’s pledge of Spain’s “indissoluble unity.”


Catalan authorities say 40% of the region’s roughly five million eligible voters cast a ballot in the referendum, with nine in ten voting in favor of secession.


However, the referendum was plagued by irregularities, such as the absence of an officially-approved census to determine who was eligible to vote. Many Catalans also say they boycotted the vote.


“The referendum was illegal, as simple as that. That’s why I didn’t vote,” said David Galega, a 36-year-old laboratory technician in Barcelona, during Sunday’s demonstration.


Write to Jeannette Neumann at [email protected] and Giovanni Legorano at [email protected]


Appeared in the October 9, 2017, print edition as 'Big Barcelona March Backs Government.'

 

[Futuwwa]

Democracy is being portrayed as something wonderful. However referendums are the most PURE way of democracy.

That doesn't answer my post, that's merely an unsubstantiated just-so statement.