Christians & Head Covering, Explanation

[جوري]

I'm not interested in discussing this topic further

That is because you're undereducated and couldn't hold your own for a couple of mins.

best,

 

[schpoogie]

Search on youtube for a video called:
Did the Umayyads change the Qur'an?
by a youtuber called "Lorientalist"

He is very educated about Islam,

I'm not an apologist, infact i hate reading and debating aimlessly, but i've seen debates; you can critisize the Bible, and we can critisize the Quran...it seems endless.
I think you just gotto stick with what sounds better, what you can related to the best, and which suits your needs more.
For me, Christianity is this.
If Islam had clear proofs then I would be persuaded, but i'm not.

 

[جوري]

Search on youtube for a video called:
Did the Umayyads change the Qur'an?
by a youtuber called "Lorientalist"

He is very educated about Islam,

I'm not an apologist, infact i hate reading and debating aimlessly, but i've seen debates; you can critisize the Bible, and we can critisize the Quran...it seems endless.
I think you just gotto stick with what sounds better, what you can related to the best, and which suits your needs more.
For me, Christianity is this.
If Islam had clear proofs then I would be persuaded, but i'm not.

Bring me the before and after Quran then if you're truthful. We have only one version, the one that has always been!
I can not do the same for the bible and to be frank I am not even interested. Even if it were legitimate and not a horrible concoction of the scribes attributed to god and laced with a zillion pagan practice, I would still not follow a religion where the main theme is worshiping a man. To me it is no different than worshiping Ganesh at least they had some semblance of originality in their paganism and didn't build it on assimilating pagan practices from a conglomerate of Egyptian, Grecian or Zoroastrian etc.

As for what persuades you, that is of no consequence, I don't find you philosophically, theologically or intellectually stimulating .. and it is your privilege to worship as you please.

best,

 

[Ramadhan]

Search on youtube for a video called:
Did the Umayyads change the Qur'an?
by a youtuber called "Lorientalist"

Please bring evidence here, tell me which parts of the qur'an are fabrications? when were they fabricated?

The umayyads changed the Qur'an? You don't know history do you? (eg. have you any idea
which umayyad? how it happened?
which verse that is fabrications?

Please state here, otherwise you are a liar.

Again, Amigo said a christian must not lie.
Or did amigo lie?

and if you believe in every youtuber, I have a bridge for you to sell.

Just for your information, have you any slightest idea that the qur'an had already been fully memorised by thousands if not tens of thousands of muslims by the time the umayyads dynasty went into power, and many of those memorisers lived far from ummayyads lands?
Have you any slightest idea that two copies of qur'an written during Ustman (ra) caliphate, which preceded the umayyads dynasty by hundred of years, still exist now and kept in the topkapi museum in istanbul and uzbekistan?
Have you any slightest idea that currently there are millions of hafiz/hafizah (memorisers of the qur'an, down to the t and dot), including my 16 yo girl-cousin, and several in this forum? If there had been changes during the umayyads dynasty, there would have been at least thousands of different versions of qur'an, but as you can see it, there is only one qur'an existing.

I'm not an apologist, infact i hate reading and debating aimlessly, but i've seen debates; you can critisize the Bible, and we can critisize the Quran...it seems endless.

You are welcome to debate Islam and the qur'an, that is why we have sections "comparative religion", "clarifications about Islam", 'discover Islam" etc.

But it seems you are not comfortable when people even bring tiny, simple FACTS about bible.

You cannot expect to come here, shove some bible verses on us and tell us they are the truth or say that Qur'an has been changed without us challenging them, otherwise you are trolling.

You cannot seriously think that you can come here and tell us that bible has been well preserved, and not expecting us to show you evidence that your bible is nothing preserved at all?

I think you just gotto stick with what sounds better, what you can related to the best, and which suits your needs more.
For me, Christianity is this.

So you believe that the truth must follow your desires and your needs?

That must have been why previous rabbis, scribes and priests changed messages by prophets (pbut) and word of god to suit their needs

If Islam had clear proofs then I would be persuaded, but i'm not

You remind me of these verses:
57. Say (O Muhammad

): "I am on clear proof from my Lord (Islamic Monotheism), but you deny (the truth that has come to me from Allah). I have not gotten what you are asking for impatiently (the torment). The decision is only for Allah, He declares the truth, and He is the Best of judges." (QS. Al An'am)

I see that you have minimal knowledge of bible, but that is to be expected from christians as they are discouraged from learning history of their own bible. Please read these books by one of the world's most important NT scholars:

http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Christia...=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1322142055&sr=1-4
http://www.amazon.com/Forged-Writin...=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1322142055&sr=1-2
http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Interru...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1322142055&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Je...=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1322142055&sr=1-3
http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Scriptur...=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1322142055&sr=1-6
http://www.amazon.com/Orthodox-Corr...=sr_1_9?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1322142055&sr=1-9

 

[schpoogie]

No I don't know the history, but why should I take anyone's word? Lorientalist has studied the history so I showed you his video, if there are errors in it then that's on his behalf not mine.
Please know that there is a difference between lying and making an error.

I did not post Bible verses as to say it was the truth, I was only intersted in knowing if the Quran had similar verses which promote love, and there were some good verses but none really emphasising on love.

As would anyone feel uncomfortable when facing criticism, you have indeed given me reason to not believe in the Bible but no reasons as to why the Quran is better.
I will be posting in Clarrifications then

 

[Ramadhan]

No I don't know the history, but why should I take anyone's word? Lorientalist has studied the history so I showed you his video, if there are errors in it then that's on his behalf not mine.

You claimed Al Qur'an has been changed.

I asked you for proof.

You are now saying you believe Al Qur'an has been changed because some youtuber said so.

Now please, bring to these forum the main points of evidence from that youtuber.

Otherwise you are just a liar.

Please know that there is a difference between lying and making an error.

Of course I do know.
But You DID claim that Qur'an has been changed.

Now bring evidence.

I did not post Bible verses as to say it was the truth, I was only intersted in knowing if the Quran had similar verses which promote love, and there were some good verses but none really emphasising on love.

As we have shown you on the other thread that you just opened, I counted there were more Qur'an verses about love than the whole of bible combined together.

But this thread is not for those, is it?

You claimed that ALL bible is inspired by God.

And then I asked you if the head covering commandment need to be followed.

And then you said the commandment need not be followed because it was fabrication. (which contradicted your previous claim that ALL bible is inspired by God)

And then you said bible has been preserved, and then I gave you evidence that bible is far from being preserved.

And then you claimed that even qur'an is not preserved, and then I asked you for evidence.

And then you are like "uh ..oh... some youtuber said so, and if there is error, that's the youtuber".

You keep changing your stance on most fundamental level. Everybody knows that when you stand on the truth, you don't keep changing your belief.

As would anyone feel uncomfortable when facing criticism, you have indeed given me reason to not believe in the Bible but no reasons as to why the Quran is better.
I will be posting in Clarrifications then

Please do not be dense.
You conceded that bible is inferior, but at the same time you don't think Qur'an is better? Is there some disconnect?

On authenticity alone, it is clear that Qur'an is the truth while bible is not. Not to mention on the content (as I have shown you in the other thread about lewdness, obscenity, sexual fantasies in bible).
I have not even touched upon errors, factual errors, contradictions in bible.

 

[Abz2000]

obama also claims to believe Jesus (pbuh) died for his sins - but feels the bible including the sermon on the mount (jesus (pbuh's) first public speech) is a radical piece of work to be reviled

.....................it seems to be a recurring theme among many..............

 

[syed1]

Subhanallah, he claims he has sufficient proof to not believe in the bible. Mashallah, that is one step towards seeking the truth. May allah guide you Inshallah, I am sure we are all eagerly waiting for you to post in the clarifications sections so that some of the more well versed may prove to you that quran is the word of god. then perhaps you will no longer be blind and openly accept our religion of peace . amen

 

[schpoogie]

Let me just ask you out of curiousity, why do you think the Quran is the word of God?

 

[جوري]

Let me just ask you out of curiousity, why do you think the Quran is the word of God?

Examining The Qur'an It is worthwhile knowing something about the Orientalism and its distortion of Islam. The academic study of the Oriental East by the Occidental West was often motivated and often co-operated hand-in-hand with the imperialistic aims of the European colonial powers. Without a doubt, the foundations of Orientalism are in the maxim "Know thy enemy". When the Christian Nations of Europe began their long campaign to colonize and conquer the rest of the world for their own benefit, they brought their academic and missionary resources to bear in order to help them with their task. Orientalists and missionaries whose ranks often overlapped, not just the servants of an imperialist government who were using their services as a way to subdue or weaken an enemy, however subtly.
Quite a few Orientalist scholars were Christian missionaries. Two examples worth mentioning are that of Sir William Muir and Rev. St. Claire Tisdall, who were active missionaries and authors of several books on Islam. Today, these books are viewed as very biased studies, even though they continue to be used as references for those wishing to attack Islam to this very day. That Christians were the source of some of the worst lies and distortions about Islam should come as no surprise, since Islam was its main "competitor" on the stage of World Religions. Far from honouring the commandment not to bear false witness against one's neighbour, Christians distortions and outright lies about Islam were widespread.
The modern day Orientalists may have become de-Christianised, but there still exist some age-old notions about Islam. The Christian missionaries as usual, rely on the material of Orientalists. But unfortunately, the Orientalists do not say what the Christian missionaries would like to point out. Hence misquoting is very rife in Christian missionary writing as most of the articles below would show.
This page exclusively deals with the Christian missionary propaganda, lies and distortion about the Qur'an. The Muslims assert that the Qur'an is same as recited by the Prophet Muhammad[SUP](P)[/SUP]. There are no additional materials added to it nor subtracted after the death of the Prophet[SUP](P)[/SUP].
We have divided them into following sections so as to enable the reader to understand the issues involved here.

Textual Integrity

Logical Consistency

Miraculous Features

Supernatural eloquence
Scientific statements far ahead of its time
​

Sources Of The Qur'an

Issue Of Abrogation

Tafsir of the Qur'an

In this section, the Tafsir of some of the important verses of the Qur'an misquoted by the Christian missionaries would be provided along with the methodology of interpreting the Qur'an.
​

Qur'anic Studies

The content is be primarily the interesting papers published in peer-reviewed journals. Some material is also the excerpts from books. The aim of bringing such material on the web is to disseminate interesting information which otherwise would end up getting stacked in the libraries, unread.
​

Integrity of the Bible according to the Qur'an?

May be we should first check what the Church tradition has to say about the integrity or lack of it of the Bible!

The Canons Of The Old Testament & The New Testament Through The Ages

A comprehensive collection of biblical canons throughout the history from the time of Jesus to the modern day critical editions.
​

On The Textual Sources Of The New International Version (NIV) Bible

What are the textual sources of the NIV Bible? Can these textual sources be considered "inspired" or "original"? Such issues are dealt with in this article. It should be added that the arguments made against the "inspiration" or "originality" of textual sources of the NIV Bible are also valid for RSV, NASV and other Bibles. Please note that the article is not about translations of the Bible; it is about their textual sources.
​

The Integrity Of The Bible According To The Church Tradition
What about the Bible at the time of Muhammad[SUP](P)[/SUP]?

Is The Bible In Our Hands Same As During The Time Of Muhammad[SUP](P)[/SUP]?
​

Insha'allah, more information can be obtained by clicking on the above and following the argument through the links.

 

[Ali_008]

Let me just ask you out of curiousity, why do you think the Quran is the word of God?

This question is too good. I can write all day why I believe the Qur'an to be the word of God but for your understanding I'll provide a few essential points and try to keep them brief at the same time, inshAllah.

1. There are no contradictions in the Qur'an whatsoever. The verses don't rival each other rather are supportive.
2. The Qur'an revealed facts about various fiels of science which have been discovered recently whereas the Qur'an was revealed over 1400 years ago.
3. Not even a single verse of the Qur'an ever sounds illogical or makes you think "what the !@#$ is this suppose to mean?".
4. Above all, the Qur'an supports monotheism which is the greatest fact ever.
5. The Qur'an's eloquence can not be compared to any book in the world at all and reading it really makes you believe that no human can write this good.
6. The Qur'an is an outstanding book. You won't find any obscenity anywhere and no hateful parts except for hardcore sinners and legendary miscreants like Pharaoh.
7. The Qur'an has been preserved from the past 1400 years. There are no 2 versions of the Qur'an unlike the Bible (which has, only God knows, how many versions).
8. It is filled with love, mercy and peace so much so that sometimes reading it with pure heart brings tears to your eyes and never ever makes you feel disgusted with what it has to say unless you are a repentant evildoer who indulges in self-disgust for his/her past.

 

[Ramadhan]

Let me just ask you out of curiousity, why do you think the Quran is the word of God?

For endless reasons.

For example, in the Qur'an, God made some definitive promises and those have passed, have been kept. One that you and everybody else in the world can test:

Muhsin Khan
Verily We: It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption). (QS. Hijr:9)

If Qur'an were not from the creator, surely qur'an wouldn't have been preserved?
But it is.

​

 

[Ramadhan]

More on the evidence why Qur'an cannot be from other than The creator of everything:

Qur'an was revealed as the guidance for all mankind, as the criterion for good and evil, etc. The miracles that the Qur'an inherently and outwardly contain are signs and evidence for those to believe that it is from none other than the creator of heavens and earth.

Those miracles such as:
1. complete preservation, despite being used by billions of people for more than 1,400 years in all continents. No other books, manuscripts, poetrys, etc is even close.

2. the fact that qur'an was revealed in 23 years, in stages, many of the verses responded to specific situations in specific times, and yet when completed became a book with unmatched and inimitable style and beauty with uninterrupted flow. The fact that prophet Muhammad SAW was fully illiterate also shows that there is no way the book was created by him, or even by any other human.

3. It contains descriptions about our nature from the biggest (the birth of the universe, how the universe is expanding, and the end of the universe) to the smallest (atomic sub particles, "zarrah"), to the make up of all living things, etc etc. These are popularly called "scientific miracles of the Qur'an". just google it. or read more here:
http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/islam1.html
http://thisistruth.org/

4. There are also numerical/mathematical miracles of the qur'an (for example: the number of mentions of the words for land and sea/ocean in the Qur'an are exactly the same as the proportions land and ocean on earth, the word of Adam (as) is mentioned the same time as Isa (as) which corresponds to the ayah of the Qur'an where " the creation of Isa ibn Maryam is the same as Adam", etc.
You can read more here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/31422-mathematical-miracles-quran.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/quran/25813-miracles-quraan-3.html

5. Linguistic Miracles. this is considered the main miracle of the Qur'an. I cannot summarize it in a sentence, but please read more here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/quran/134295527-divine-linguistic-miracle-quran-gems.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/health-science/134303460-scientific-linguistic-miracles-quran.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/general...racle-quran-what-orientalists-said-about.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-multimedia/134305949-miracles-quran.html

 

[Abz2000]

this video clears much up:
you have to copy paste the title of the video into the search box and change the "x" of 23