Confusing Religions

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all,

Trying to understand what God wants from us can seem confusing, and often in conflict. On the one hand we each seek a deep and sincere faith and trust in God, and I recognise this in many of my Muslim brothers and sisters on this forum.

Beyond a doubt we are all created by the same God, and it seems strange that God should give you a deep and sincere faith through Islam and me the same through Christianity. Why would the same God do this?

As to our atheist, Hindu, Jewish and Sikh friends, they are still created by the same God, but why?

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric

 

[Keltoi]

I'm sure we all agree that what exists is because God willed it to be so. There are two ways to approach this problem:

1. We all worship the same God but in different ways, no particular faith being the one true path to salvation.

2. We all worship the same God, but only one faith is the true path to salvation.

 

[alcurad]

Why would the same God do this?

he is not "doing" it, we have free will, thus it is us who are doing it, not him.
and it is up to us to believe in whatever we will, and he will judge us accordingly. if we are found to have had faith in a false matter, that is not his fault, he has already sent the messengers, rather some of us choose to ignore knowingly, or blindly.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Keltoi;

1.We all worship the same God but in different ways, no particular faith being the one true path to salvation.

2. We all worship the same God, but only one faith is the true path to salvation.

Supposing God created us with number one as his goal, he accepts all beliefs, because they are all centred on justice to the poor, kindness and forgiveness.
And all goodness comes from God.

Supposing people in faith can only see your number two solution as being correct, and many of us do.

That might explain the conflict in this world.

In the spirit of praying to a just and merciful God,

Eric

 

[Trumble]

he is not "doing" it, we have free will, thus it is us who are doing it, not him.
and it is up to us to believe in whatever we will, and he will judge us accordingly. if we are found to have had faith in a false matter, that is not his fault, he has already sent the messengers, rather some of us choose to ignore knowingly, or blindly.

What sort of real 'choice' do you believe there to be? Sure, there are many exceptions but still for the vast majority religious beliefs are determined and conditioned by culture and upbringing, not some 'free choice' from a selection of equally weighted alternatives which are presented to them.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

We have appointed a law and a practice for every one of you. Had Allah willed, He would have made you a single community, but He wanted to test you regarding what has come to you. So compete with each other in doing good. Every one of you will return to Allah and He will inform you regarding the things about which you differed. Judge between them by what Allah has sent down and do not follow their whims and desires. And beware of them lest they lure you away from some of what Allah has sent down to you (The Qur’an)


Peace, Eric. Do not fall into the trap that so many theists are prey to. God has sent 1, just 1, perfect religion down. You believe it is CHristianity, I believe it is Islam. Our job is to find out who is right, not declare everyone right.

23 Had Allah known of any good in them He would have made them hear, but had He made them hear they would have turned away, averse.

God knows all and has appointed each of us a specific test. This is a long topic but to make it really short: Allah has introduced you to Islam because he knows that you would make a good believer. Take the chance or leave it. As for those who have never heard of it, Allah knows best.

 

[Hafswa]

he is not "doing" it, we have free will, thus it is us who are doing it, not him.
and it is up to us to believe in whatever we will, and he will judge us accordingly. if we are found to have had faith in a false matter, that is not his fault, he has already sent the messengers, rather some of us choose to ignore knowingly, or blindly.

Hi Eric,
Just as Alcurad said, we were each born with a free will and a desire to acknowledge a higher power(God) who created us and who requires us to live by His statues and Virtues.
Our will is the one thing that God or Satan cannot take over hence it is always our decision in the end. An example is how in movies you have a devil and an angel on each shoulder trying to persuade and sway your decision to suit their nature becasue thats all they can do. The decision is ours.
God only brings different situations our way so that we can
1. be tested
2. our faith can be sharpened and made stronger
3. that in our tribulation, we can come closer to him.

 

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Beyond a doubt we are all created by the same God, and it seems strange that God should give you a deep and sincere faith through Islam and me the same through Christianity. Why would the same God do this?

In the spirit of searching for God.

Eric

Eric,

i have always been pleased by your mannerisms so i apologise for any offense caused by my following words.


What needs to be addressed here is what is your sincere faith upon?

We believe in Allaah and his final messenger and all he has revealed. Every word is accepted as the words of God in the Quran. The Hadith are subject to scrutiny but also have been collected and authenticated in the thousands.


I must ask, Do you believe in the Bible, in the words of Paul to the very letter?

Or is your strong faith just on God... and God alone?...


hopefully by contemplating my questioning you will realise what i am getting at...


the strong faith is indeed in the same thing... but what surrounds it can either be false... or true, that shouldnt negate our faith in whats true... for example many of the companions of the prophet sallallahi alaihi wasallaam before islaam were indeed Idol Worshippers and polytheists etc but they always had a extremely Strong believe in Allaah. Even the disbelievers claimed to believe in Allaah, a strong belief indeed because when asked they would say that Allah created the heavens and the earth. SO the strong belief was there.. the difference comes in associating partners with Allaah.

You see the Devil Believers and KNOWS God exists, yet he chose to associate partners with him and drive people away from God.

What you must contemplate is... which form of worshipping God is most pure?... most unadulterated...




Peace Dear Eric

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Eric

Also, it must be remembered that as Muslims, we belive that Allah has taught us the same thing in every age. Many thousands of Prophets have gone out into the world with the same message, " There is no God except God." When humans corrupted their own scriptures by adding what they pleased and changing what they didnt like, we got all these differences and conflicts between faiths.

Those other religions were all steps up till when God revealed his final and complete way of life, Islam. This religion is here to unite the other faiths and remind them of what they once knew, but have long since forgotten. La ilaha ilala. There is no God but God.

In case, I didnt make it clear by my above statements, the answer to your question about confusing religions is that God did not make other religions, humans altered his religion. It is our duty to distinguish truth from falsehood.

 

[August]

While I agree that we should be trying to follow the correct religion, and believe the right things, I think part of this question is about the mercy of God. I'm Catholic, and I think that that is the correct church, and Christianity the correct religion. However, I have a hard time believing that God would condemn people just for following the wrong religion, if they are sincere in their committment to God.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

While I agree that we should be trying to follow the correct religion, and believe the right things, I think part of this question is about the mercy of God. I'm Catholic, and I think that that is the correct church, and Christianity the correct religion. However, I have a hard time believing that God would condemn people just for following the wrong religion, if they are sincere in their committment to God.

Really? I thought since CHristians belive that you would need to be Saved by Jesus, that everyone else would go to hell? Their sins are not forgiven by the sacrifice which is the cornerstone of your religion right? I am only saying this because I thought that that was what your Church fathers ahd taught for centuries?

“And they say, ‘None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.’ These are their own desires. Say (O Muhammad), ‘Produce your proof if you are truthful.’” Qur’an 2:111

 

[Grace Seeker]

What sort of real 'choice' do you believe there to be? Sure, there are many exceptions but still for the vast majority religious beliefs are determined and conditioned by culture and upbringing, not some 'free choice' from a selection of equally weighted alternatives which are presented to them.

How far are you willing to take these deterministic views? Sure simple observation teaches us that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, thus the person brought up by a father in the KKK is more likely to hold similar views, and a person brought up by a mother who does not even acknowledge the existence of God and lives a purely hedonistic lifestyle is not likely to become the next Pope. But I why modify your statement to refer to just religious beliefs? Isn't it true that the vast majority of all beliefs are determined and conditioned by culture and upbringing, everything from views about whether or not the world it flat or round to whether one wants a big or small family, even our preferences for foods, humor, and political parties. Keep pushing it and whether I choose to take the expressway or surface streets to work is no doubt a product of my conditioning through previous experiences, as is the type of job I look for, and the model of car I drive, or who I find appealing as a mate, and what clothes I choose to put on this morning. It isn't long before we have a purely deterministic view on all of life, including whether or not you even agree with this post.

I on the other hand happen to believe that people actually are empowered to make independent choices regarding what to eat and what to wear, and if things that we can easily be so conditioned regarding are areas in life where one can exercise freewill, then surely those aspects that engender such significant thought as one's religious views are open to free will as well.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Eric

Also, it must be remembered that as Muslims, we belive that Allah has taught us the same thing in every age. Many thousands of Prophets have gone out into the world with the same message, " There is no God except God." When humans corrupted their own scriptures by adding what they pleased and changing what they didnt like, we got all these differences and conflicts between faiths.

Those other religions were all steps up till when God revealed his final and complete way of life, Islam. This religion is here to unite the other faiths and remind them of what they once knew, but have long since forgotten. La ilaha ilala. There is no God but God.

In case, I didnt make it clear by my above statements, the answer to your question about confusing religions is that God did not make other religions, humans altered his religion. It is our duty to distinguish truth from falsehood.

And what if one believes that some of these above statements are indeed themselves falsehoods? Is there any objective source to determine whether your statements are true or your statements are themselves false?


For instance, since you will find that we don't in fact say "none shall enter Paradise unless he be a Christian or a Jew," (note August's statement above) is it possible that the following statement is itself in error?

“And they say, ‘None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.’ These are their own desires. Say (O Muhammad), ‘Produce your proof if you are truthful.’” Qur’an 2:111

 

[AntiKarateKid]

And what if one believes that some of these above statements are indeed themselves falsehoods? Is there any objective source to determine whether your statements are true or your statements are themselves false?


For instance, since you will find that we don't in fact say "none shall enter Paradise unless he be a Christian or a Jew," (note August's statement above) is it possible that the following statement is itself in error?

Are you really denying that the Church used to propagate this idea of a Christian only heaven?


The Vatican says that one who truly believes in Catholic teachings and lives a life in accord with those beliefs is guaranteed a place in heaven, said Matthew Ogilvie, assistant professor of systematic theology at the University of Dallas, a Catholic school in Irving.

What about non-Catholic Christians? "Fifty years ago, if you asked your average parish priest or nun, they would have told you than non-Catholics are not going to heaven," he said.

THis was an extremely pervasive view throughout Christiandom fromwhat I have heard.

It may or may not be supported by the Bible, but the fact is, that people were told this and many many belived it. Why else would it be a topic of discussion?

 

[August]

Really? I thought since CHristians belive that you would need to be Saved by Jesus, that everyone else would go to hell? Their sins are not forgiven by the sacrifice which is the cornerstone of your religion right? I am only saying this because I thought that that was what your Church fathers ahd taught for centuries?

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

847

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."


This is the Catholic view, some other Christians do believe that only Christians can be saved, no matter what.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

847

"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation."


This is the Catholic view, some other Christians do believe that only Christians can be saved, no matter what.

And what of the people who knew about the gospel, rejected its teachings, and followed another religionf aithfully like Judaism or Islam

 

[Trumble]

How far are you willing to take these deterministic views?

Not very, in this instance. I wasn't attempting to present a position in the free will v. determinism debate, only point out that religious beliefs are usually far more dependent on the factors you describe than on any deliberate choice.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Not very, in this instance. I wasn't attempting to present a position in the free will v. determinism debate, only point out that religious beliefs are usually far more dependent on the factors you describe than on any deliberate choice.

OK. Gotcha.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Are you really denying that the Church used to propagate this idea of a Christian only heaven?

You will notice that in addition to August's quoting of the official Catholic position, that the Qur'an quotation doesn't say anything about a "Christian only" heaven. It says

And they say, ‘None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.’

Those Christians that hold to a Christian only idea of heaven would not say the above which the Qur'an says we would say because such Christians would not admit any non-Christian, including Jews. And other Christians who will admit Jews will also admit other sincere believers who are neither Christian nor Jew. So the statement as it is formed in the Qur'an is not something that you are going to find Christians saying. Either we would say, "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Christian." Or we would say, "None shall enter Paradise that God does not reach out to in love." But you will find few Christians who will say what it is that the Qur'an says we will say. Though, I suppose given the 2 billion Christians that exist in the world, you may be able to find a handful that would say that other, so I guess that makes the statement factually true, even if it is inaccurate in terms of stating overall Christian theology.

 

[August]

And what of the people who knew about the gospel, rejected its teachings, and followed another religionf aithfully like Judaism or Islam

It depends. If they knew that the gospel was true, and then joined another religion anyway, then they would be rejecting God, and would probably not be saved. If they understood it poorly, or were given false information about the gospel, and then joined another religion out of a sincere desire to serve God, then they probably would be saved. However, I am not God, so I can't say with certainty.