Crucifixion
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Re: sura 4:157
Peace be upon those who follow guidance,
Welcome
and nice of you to ask.
Sura 4 Ayah 157 says in the interpretation of the meaning:
May Peace be upon Jesus son of Mary and his mother.
I am glad you have joined the forum and I hope that you have a beneficial stay
There is also a Comperative Religion Section in which that question may have been more suitable.
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/
Also I hope you remember to:
"be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry"
And
"be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have."
With
"gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience"
Being
"slow to become angry, for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires."
Other than that, please do not be offended by others here, if anyone posts any offending matterial please be in the knowledge that it will not be tolerated, whether it be against Islam/Christianity/Judaism/Hindusm....
See ya Around, Eesa.
Peace be upon those who follow guidance,
Welcome
and nice of you to ask.Sura 4 Ayah 157 says in the interpretation of the meaning:
May Peace be upon Jesus son of Mary and his mother.
I am glad you have joined the forum and I hope that you have a beneficial stay
There is also a Comperative Religion Section in which that question may have been more suitable.
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/
Also I hope you remember to:
"be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry"
And
"be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have."
With
"gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience"
Being
"slow to become angry, for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires."
Other than that, please do not be offended by others here, if anyone posts any offending matterial please be in the knowledge that it will not be tolerated, whether it be against Islam/Christianity/Judaism/Hindusm....
See ya Around, Eesa.
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Re: sura 4:157
Greetings...:welcome: to the forums
you may find this thread relevant:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/30177-christ-islam.html?highlight=did+jesus+die?
hope you have a great and beneficial stay here
eace: peace
Greetings...:welcome: to the forums
you may find this thread relevant:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/30177-christ-islam.html?highlight=did+jesus+die?
hope you have a great and beneficial stay here
eace: peace Re: sura 4:157
Welcome
Allah says :
"And when Allah said: ‘O Jesus! I will take you and lift you up to Me, and purify you of those who disbelieve, and will make those who followed you above those who disbelieved until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me shall you all return, and I shall judge between you in that which you dispute.’" (3:54,55)
Then He said in Surat An-Nisa':
"For their breaking the covenant, and their disbelief in Allah ’s Signs, and their slaying the Prophets unjustly, and for their saying: 'Our hearts are impermeable'. No, but Allah has set a seal upon them for their blasphemy, so little it is what they believe. And for their rejection to the Faith, and for their uttering against Mary a monstrous lie." (4:155,156)
"And for their saying (in boast): 'We killed Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah'; but they killed him not nor crucified him. Only a likeness of that was shown to them. And those who differ therein are full of doubt with no certain knowledge, but only follow mere conjecture, for of a surety they killed him not. But Allah lifted him up to Him, and Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise. And there is none of the people of the Book, but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Judgment, he will be a witness against them." (4:157-159)
These Verses tell us that Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) was lifted up to the heaven after his opponents from Jews complained and misled the king of that time, as they wanted to slay him and crucify him.
Ibn Abu Hatim has narrated from Ibn Abbas saying: "'When Allah wanted to lift him up to heaven, Jesus came to his companions in the house. There were twelve people, with some from among his disciples. He had just a bath, and his head was still dribbling with water. He said to them: 'There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after he had believed in me! Then he said: 'Who will from among you take my likeness and be killed in my place, so will become in my rank?' A young youth came forwards. But Jesus said to him: 'Sit down! Then he repeated the same question, and the same youth stood up and came forwards, and said: ‘I.' Jesus said: 'You are the one,' and then the likeness of Jesus was put on him, and Jesus was lifted up to the heaven from the window of his house.
Jews came looking for him. They took the youth and killed him and then crucified him. Later they became three groups. One group, who are called Jacobites (Yaqubiyah), believe that it was God Himself among them who stayed with them as long as He wanted to, then went back to the heaven. Another group who are called Nestorian (Nasturiyah), believed that it was the son of God who was with them, and stayed among them as long as he wanted, then his father lifted him up. But the group of true believers said that he was the slave of Allah and His Messenger who stayed among them as long as he wanted, then his Lord Allah took him up to Him. The two disbeliever groups collided together against the believer group and killed them, and so real teachings of Islam taught by Jesus became obscure till Allah sent the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
Hasan Basri and Ibn Ishaq said: The king who ordered the killing of Jesus, was David bin Naura. He commanded Jesus to be killed and hanged. They surrounded Jesus who was in a house inside Bait-ul-Maqdis. It was a Saturday night. When they were about to enter the house, his likeness was put on one of those who were present there with him. And Jesus was lifted up from the window of that house to the heaven. When the police entered the house they found the youth on whom the likeness of Jesus was put, so they took him and crucified him. Even they put a crown of thorns on his head to mock him. Those Christians who were not present there at that time, believed what Jews claimed, that they killed Jesus.
Allah said: "And there is none of the people of the Book, but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Judgment, he will be a witness against them." This refers to the time when Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) will descend to the earth before the Day of Judgment, and kill the swine, break the Cross, impose the levy, and will not be pleased but with Islam."'
Ibn Jarir has narrated from Wahb bin Munabbih, saying: Jesus came along with seventeen of his disciples to a house. Then police came and surrounded the house. However, when they entered the house, Allah put the likeness of Jesus on all of those who were there. They were confused, and said: "You have bewitched us. Either Jesus come to us, or we will kill of you." Jesus said to his companions: "Who can buy today a place in Jannah (Paradise)?" A man said: "I"' and went out, claiming: "I am Jesus." They took him and crucified him, and so they were deluded in their belief that they have killed Jesus, and so are the Christians. But Jesus was lifted up to Allah on that day.
Ibn `Asakir said: Mary lived after Jesus for five years, and then died at the age of fifty-three years.
Hasan Basri said: Jesus was thirty-four years old when he was lifted to the heaven. Sa'id bin Musayyib said: He was thirty-three years old when he was raised up to the heaven.
Welcome
Allah says :
"And when Allah said: ‘O Jesus! I will take you and lift you up to Me, and purify you of those who disbelieve, and will make those who followed you above those who disbelieved until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me shall you all return, and I shall judge between you in that which you dispute.’" (3:54,55)
Then He said in Surat An-Nisa':
"For their breaking the covenant, and their disbelief in Allah ’s Signs, and their slaying the Prophets unjustly, and for their saying: 'Our hearts are impermeable'. No, but Allah has set a seal upon them for their blasphemy, so little it is what they believe. And for their rejection to the Faith, and for their uttering against Mary a monstrous lie." (4:155,156)
"And for their saying (in boast): 'We killed Messiah, Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah'; but they killed him not nor crucified him. Only a likeness of that was shown to them. And those who differ therein are full of doubt with no certain knowledge, but only follow mere conjecture, for of a surety they killed him not. But Allah lifted him up to Him, and Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise. And there is none of the people of the Book, but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Judgment, he will be a witness against them." (4:157-159)
These Verses tell us that Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) was lifted up to the heaven after his opponents from Jews complained and misled the king of that time, as they wanted to slay him and crucify him.
Ibn Abu Hatim has narrated from Ibn Abbas saying: "'When Allah wanted to lift him up to heaven, Jesus came to his companions in the house. There were twelve people, with some from among his disciples. He had just a bath, and his head was still dribbling with water. He said to them: 'There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after he had believed in me! Then he said: 'Who will from among you take my likeness and be killed in my place, so will become in my rank?' A young youth came forwards. But Jesus said to him: 'Sit down! Then he repeated the same question, and the same youth stood up and came forwards, and said: ‘I.' Jesus said: 'You are the one,' and then the likeness of Jesus was put on him, and Jesus was lifted up to the heaven from the window of his house.
Jews came looking for him. They took the youth and killed him and then crucified him. Later they became three groups. One group, who are called Jacobites (Yaqubiyah), believe that it was God Himself among them who stayed with them as long as He wanted to, then went back to the heaven. Another group who are called Nestorian (Nasturiyah), believed that it was the son of God who was with them, and stayed among them as long as he wanted, then his father lifted him up. But the group of true believers said that he was the slave of Allah and His Messenger who stayed among them as long as he wanted, then his Lord Allah took him up to Him. The two disbeliever groups collided together against the believer group and killed them, and so real teachings of Islam taught by Jesus became obscure till Allah sent the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).
Hasan Basri and Ibn Ishaq said: The king who ordered the killing of Jesus, was David bin Naura. He commanded Jesus to be killed and hanged. They surrounded Jesus who was in a house inside Bait-ul-Maqdis. It was a Saturday night. When they were about to enter the house, his likeness was put on one of those who were present there with him. And Jesus was lifted up from the window of that house to the heaven. When the police entered the house they found the youth on whom the likeness of Jesus was put, so they took him and crucified him. Even they put a crown of thorns on his head to mock him. Those Christians who were not present there at that time, believed what Jews claimed, that they killed Jesus.
Allah said: "And there is none of the people of the Book, but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Judgment, he will be a witness against them." This refers to the time when Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) will descend to the earth before the Day of Judgment, and kill the swine, break the Cross, impose the levy, and will not be pleased but with Islam."'
Ibn Jarir has narrated from Wahb bin Munabbih, saying: Jesus came along with seventeen of his disciples to a house. Then police came and surrounded the house. However, when they entered the house, Allah put the likeness of Jesus on all of those who were there. They were confused, and said: "You have bewitched us. Either Jesus come to us, or we will kill of you." Jesus said to his companions: "Who can buy today a place in Jannah (Paradise)?" A man said: "I"' and went out, claiming: "I am Jesus." They took him and crucified him, and so they were deluded in their belief that they have killed Jesus, and so are the Christians. But Jesus was lifted up to Allah on that day.
Ibn `Asakir said: Mary lived after Jesus for five years, and then died at the age of fifty-three years.
Hasan Basri said: Jesus was thirty-four years old when he was lifted to the heaven. Sa'id bin Musayyib said: He was thirty-three years old when he was raised up to the heaven.
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Re: sura 4:157
I wanted to add a rule at the beginning to prevent the common, ping-pong arguments that tend to happen. A rule of discernment is what keeps things more condensed. Discernment is what we all should desire to grow in from our youth on up to old age. Wisdom comes with discernment, I think we can all agree with that. So to be wise, discerning intellectuals, let us agree to only comment with objective truth. Objective means only those truth statements that can be proven as fact, to the casual observer. Often scripture is used as objective fact, but even that will have to be proven for this thread, okay? Historical facts, archaological facts, witnesses, are examples for establilshing objective truth. Prophecies are always to be questioned until proven to be a true prophet. Scripture can be used only if proven to be the Word of Allah, by some objective means.
These are rules of discernment that should be common amoung intelligent men and women. Let us go forward with this intent.
Let me know if you all agree.
Shehzad
I wanted to add a rule at the beginning to prevent the common, ping-pong arguments that tend to happen. A rule of discernment is what keeps things more condensed. Discernment is what we all should desire to grow in from our youth on up to old age. Wisdom comes with discernment, I think we can all agree with that. So to be wise, discerning intellectuals, let us agree to only comment with objective truth. Objective means only those truth statements that can be proven as fact, to the casual observer. Often scripture is used as objective fact, but even that will have to be proven for this thread, okay? Historical facts, archaological facts, witnesses, are examples for establilshing objective truth. Prophecies are always to be questioned until proven to be a true prophet. Scripture can be used only if proven to be the Word of Allah, by some objective means.
These are rules of discernment that should be common amoung intelligent men and women. Let us go forward with this intent.
Let me know if you all agree.
Shehzad
Re: sura 4:157
IsaAbdullah, Glacier, and Salmaan.
You all assume the Quran is Holy. To be an objective truth, this must be proven. I know you believe this, but is it true? I am real new at this, so I have to ask questions about each step along the way. It has kept me from going down the wrong road many times, so I won't believe it unless it really is true. I have discernment.
Allah expects us to believe only what he says. For all of his prophets he described a way to test them, all of them. He spoke those words to Moses in 1500 BC, who wrote them down in Dueteronomy. It was not mistaken, because we know Jesus quoted often from Dueteronomy, a clear endorsement from a true prophet. This is one area of the Bible that is surely true. I have tested the prophets: Jeremiah, Daniel, Isaiah. They had prophecies that indeed came true, therefore they must have been prophets of God. Signs and wonders were shown by God for them as well. Another endorsement of Allah. Here is the verse from Deut 18:20-22: But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
So here is the test of a prophet. You see by this test it really makes sure, because only God knows the future. If someone wanted to trick you, they may say their a prophet, but tell them to predict the future. If it comes true, he must be a true prophet. Only a true prophet could be right time after time, correct?
Have you ever tested the writings of Mohammed? Test the many world events that Mohammed predicted. Jeremiah predicted a 70-year exile of Israel, which actually happened. Daniel predicted a 490-year peroid before the Annoitned One would come, and Jesus came at that precise year! Show me Mohammed's prophecies and I will believe in the same strength as his prophecies are. Did he predict World War I or World War II? Did he predict the Crusades? Perhaps he is a prophet. Please let me know what facts are there. If he didn't predict anything of substance, we cannot know that he is even a prophet. Prophets prophecy. False prophets don't prophecy, or prophecy wrongly.
Thanks for your comments.
Please reply with objective facts, only.
IsaAbdullah, Glacier, and Salmaan.
You all assume the Quran is Holy. To be an objective truth, this must be proven. I know you believe this, but is it true? I am real new at this, so I have to ask questions about each step along the way. It has kept me from going down the wrong road many times, so I won't believe it unless it really is true. I have discernment.
Allah expects us to believe only what he says. For all of his prophets he described a way to test them, all of them. He spoke those words to Moses in 1500 BC, who wrote them down in Dueteronomy. It was not mistaken, because we know Jesus quoted often from Dueteronomy, a clear endorsement from a true prophet. This is one area of the Bible that is surely true. I have tested the prophets: Jeremiah, Daniel, Isaiah. They had prophecies that indeed came true, therefore they must have been prophets of God. Signs and wonders were shown by God for them as well. Another endorsement of Allah. Here is the verse from Deut 18:20-22: But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.
So here is the test of a prophet. You see by this test it really makes sure, because only God knows the future. If someone wanted to trick you, they may say their a prophet, but tell them to predict the future. If it comes true, he must be a true prophet. Only a true prophet could be right time after time, correct?
Have you ever tested the writings of Mohammed? Test the many world events that Mohammed predicted. Jeremiah predicted a 70-year exile of Israel, which actually happened. Daniel predicted a 490-year peroid before the Annoitned One would come, and Jesus came at that precise year! Show me Mohammed's prophecies and I will believe in the same strength as his prophecies are. Did he predict World War I or World War II? Did he predict the Crusades? Perhaps he is a prophet. Please let me know what facts are there. If he didn't predict anything of substance, we cannot know that he is even a prophet. Prophets prophecy. False prophets don't prophecy, or prophecy wrongly.
Thanks for your comments.
Please reply with objective facts, only.
glo
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Re: sura 4:157
I understand that according to the Qu'ran Jesus did not die, but was taking up to heaven.
I would like to know how - according to the Qu'ran - another person was arrested and cricified in Jesus' place.
Who was this substitute?
How did the switch take place?
Where did Jesus go, and when was he taken up to heaven?
Thanks
I understand that according to the Qu'ran Jesus did not die, but was taking up to heaven.
I would like to know how - according to the Qu'ran - another person was arrested and cricified in Jesus' place.
Who was this substitute?
How did the switch take place?
Where did Jesus go, and when was he taken up to heaven?
Thanks
Skillganon
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Re: sura 4:157
The concept that made way into the christian belief that Jesus died (got killed) on the cross was a so a popular belief among the early adherant.
I still mantain that early followers did not believe Jesus died on the cross but appeared to them who tried to kill him.
I can bring you proof that this belief was so, and it has made it into variouse scripture's in one form or another but all generally maintaining that he was not crucified, killed but appeared to be.
The concept that made way into the christian belief that Jesus died (got killed) on the cross was a so a popular belief among the early adherant.
I still mantain that early followers did not believe Jesus died on the cross but appeared to them who tried to kill him.
I can bring you proof that this belief was so, and it has made it into variouse scripture's in one form or another but all generally maintaining that he was not crucified, killed but appeared to be.
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Re: sura 4:157
I will reply in due course, I feel that I need to take time to reply,
Also, I will ask, Shehzad you claimed to have tested Prophets, am assuming with the Bible text used as a truthful account of what they said and done, so are we under the assumption that the Bible has not been changed?
I will reply in due course, I feel that I need to take time to reply,
Also, I will ask, Shehzad you claimed to have tested Prophets, am assuming with the Bible text used as a truthful account of what they said and done, so are we under the assumption that the Bible has not been changed?
Skillganon
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Re: sura 4:157
I'm confused. Is this from the Qur'an or some other source?
If this is found in the Qur'an could you please provide chapter and verse?
If this is from some other source, why does it seem to be treated with the same authority as the Qur'an?
I'm confused. Is this from the Qur'an or some other source?
If this is found in the Qur'an could you please provide chapter and verse?
If this is from some other source, why does it seem to be treated with the same authority as the Qur'an?
Re: sura 4:157
I believe the bit that you have quoted is not from the Qu'ran rather it is a statement of a companion of the Prophet, peace be upon him, Ibn Abbas, I think the brother quoted a passage out of Ibn Kathir's stories of the Prophets.
Is it on the same level as the Qu'ran?
I am not sure, the statements of the Prophet peace be upon him, are the same level as the Qu'ran, and some of the statements of the Companions, are actually indirectly statements that have come from the Prophet, but with regards as to whether Ibn Abbas got this from the Prophet? Someone of more knowledge should be able to answer you.
if the prophet said this then it is as authorative as the Qu'ran.
I believe the bit that you have quoted is not from the Qu'ran rather it is a statement of a companion of the Prophet, peace be upon him, Ibn Abbas, I think the brother quoted a passage out of Ibn Kathir's stories of the Prophets.
Is it on the same level as the Qu'ran?
I am not sure, the statements of the Prophet peace be upon him, are the same level as the Qu'ran, and some of the statements of the Companions, are actually indirectly statements that have come from the Prophet, but with regards as to whether Ibn Abbas got this from the Prophet? Someone of more knowledge should be able to answer you.
if the prophet said this then it is as authorative as the Qu'ran.
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Re: sura 4:157
I am confused by this also. These seem to me to be two self-contradictory statements.
If the concept that Jesus died on the cross was a popular belief among early Christians, how can you also say that early followers did not die on the cross. It seems that among early Christians either they did or they did not believe Jesus died on the cross. It seems highly unlikely that an individual would hold to two different and opposing beliefs of this nature at the same time.
Also we know from both Roman and Jewish sources that it was not only Christians but they also believed that Jesus died on the cross. Among Christians the chief claim was that not only did Jesus die on the cross, but that he was raised to life again after his death. This is not recorded in just one place, but in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Paul's letter to the church at Corinth and John's letter which was circulated to all churches.
The reason that Christianity broke away from Judaism is not that a few adherents claimed that Jesus was crucified when he was not, but that these people claimed that he was raised from the dead and thus should be understood to be God's messiah, when others did not want to accept what that implied. the historical reality of the development of Christianity as a new faith separate from Judaism is itself testimony that the early Christians truly believed these things, whether people to day think they were in error is another story. But it betrays logic to think their lives were so radically changed by something they did NOT believe in.
I am confused by this also. These seem to me to be two self-contradictory statements.
If the concept that Jesus died on the cross was a popular belief among early Christians, how can you also say that early followers did not die on the cross. It seems that among early Christians either they did or they did not believe Jesus died on the cross. It seems highly unlikely that an individual would hold to two different and opposing beliefs of this nature at the same time.
Also we know from both Roman and Jewish sources that it was not only Christians but they also believed that Jesus died on the cross. Among Christians the chief claim was that not only did Jesus die on the cross, but that he was raised to life again after his death. This is not recorded in just one place, but in Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Paul's letter to the church at Corinth and John's letter which was circulated to all churches.
The reason that Christianity broke away from Judaism is not that a few adherents claimed that Jesus was crucified when he was not, but that these people claimed that he was raised from the dead and thus should be understood to be God's messiah, when others did not want to accept what that implied. the historical reality of the development of Christianity as a new faith separate from Judaism is itself testimony that the early Christians truly believed these things, whether people to day think they were in error is another story. But it betrays logic to think their lives were so radically changed by something they did NOT believe in.
Re: sura 4:157
Yes, it surely does, Insha'Allah he will explain what he meant lol.
Early followers did not belive? I dont get that part a typo?
I could be possible that the Jewish and Roman sources thought they truly had witnessed Jesus die, the Qu'ran actually, as you see in the above quotes, says that the Jews boast/say that they killed the Messiah.
Are you familier with any of the theories on the compilations of the Cannocial Gospels?
Well, I guess maybe we all need to come on common terms as to what we mean by 'early' christians. I think thats a key point.
In the spirit of better inter-faith dialogue.
Yes, it surely does, Insha'Allah he will explain what he meant lol.
Early followers did not belive? I dont get that part a typo?
I could be possible that the Jewish and Roman sources thought they truly had witnessed Jesus die, the Qu'ran actually, as you see in the above quotes, says that the Jews boast/say that they killed the Messiah.
Are you familier with any of the theories on the compilations of the Cannocial Gospels?
Well, I guess maybe we all need to come on common terms as to what we mean by 'early' christians. I think thats a key point.
In the spirit of better inter-faith dialogue.
Re: sura 4:157
there is a prayer in the Catholic church that says different than what is said above, you can believe what you want, i am just trying to give a different interpretation of what happened. This particular prayer is said at every mass in the Catholic church, it is called the Apostles Creed and reads as follows:
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. AMEN.
there is a prayer in the Catholic church that says different than what is said above, you can believe what you want, i am just trying to give a different interpretation of what happened. This particular prayer is said at every mass in the Catholic church, it is called the Apostles Creed and reads as follows:
I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. AMEN.
Re: sura 4:157
You mean different to the Islamic belief?
And I have heard it before, I liked hearing the whole congregation say it together, though I think it was slightly different, non-catholic.
You mean different to the Islamic belief?
And I have heard it before, I liked hearing the whole congregation say it together, though I think it was slightly different, non-catholic.
Skillganon
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Re: sura 4:157
Well hear you have a choice, what I am suggesting that Jesus died on the cross was not undisputed belief.
Just that Jesus dying in the cross became a prominent belief in one way or anoter.
Other beliefs concerning Jesus death either got supressed, lost or destroyed later on.
Crucifixion of Jesus.
by Musa. (CopyRighted by me, non-reproducable without permission)
Unedited version. (Primary version with more work needed)
1.0 Introduction:
Christianity holds that Jesus got crucified on the cross for the redemption of the sin of mankind through shedding of his blood.
The Nicene Creed makes it an article of faith to believe in the crucifixion of Jesus:
“For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures;”[Nicene creed]
Islam holds that Jesus did not get crucified.
The purpose of this article is to reveals further insight concerning the crucifixion professed by these two faiths.
2.0. Crucifixion of Jesus according to the Bible
2.1. Leading up to the crucifixion:
Leading before the arrest of Jesus, Judas betrays him for money and all the disciples desert him and fled.
Gospel according to Luke describe Jesus being blasphemy by admitting His the son of God, when accused at the presence of the council of elders (Luke 22:70-71).
The next early morning the chief priests, with the elders, the teachers of the law and the whole Sanhedrin, reached a decision. They bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to Pilate.
However in front of Pilate Jesus is accused of subverting the nation and opposing the payment of taxes as well as calling himself of Christ, King and stirring up the people of Judea (Luke 23: 1-2). Although Pilate seems to acknowledge there is no basis for the charge brought on nor did Herod whom Jesus was sent onto. The narration goes onto say Pilate opposed the crucifixion of Jesus but with the consent insistence of the Jews present he finally releases him to their will.
According Matthew narrates that Pilate has Jesus flogged before handing him over to them.
2.2 The Crucifixion:
The scripture according to Luke describes as Jesus was led away to be crucified with two other criminals and Simon from cyrene (the father of Alexander and Rufus according to Mark 15:21) was made to carry the cross behind Jesus. They crucified Jesus along with the two criminals one on his left and the other on his right. The people cast lots to decide who will divide his clothes. The people watched him and Rulers sneered at him. Soldiers mocked him to save himself and offered him wine vinegar.
Jesus died when “It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, for the sun stopped shining…”(Luke 23:44-45)
All the people who gathered there to watch left but the women who followed from Galilee from a distance watch the spectacle. However according to Matthew Many women where watching from the distance who had followed from Galilee, amongst them Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons. (Mark adds “Salome” to the list)
However Gospel according to John that Jesus mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene stood by the Cross of Jesus and was indeed witness to the event. (John19:25)
The short account provided above, of the crucifixion, is according to the gospels that Christiana generally believe in.
3.0 Jesus Crucifixion according to the Quran:
According to the Quran Jesus did not get crucified but it was made to appear to them. This is provided in the Yusuf Ali translation of the Quran:
“That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-“ (Quran 4:157)
The Quran does not allude to how it was made to appear to them, i.e. whether it was someone else, an illusion.
4.0 Jesus Crucifixion according to other early Christian writing:
We have seen the position of the bible teaching on the death of Jesus, which did take place, and we have seen the Quran position on the Jesus Crucifixion, which Jesus did not get crucified but it was made to appear to them.
Coming away from the bible, and looking elsewhere we find interesting statements in a collection of thirteen ancient codices containing over fifty texts that seems to have survived, discovered in 1945 Egypt, when once thought to be destroyed during early Christian struggle to define “Orthodoxy”
4.1. The Second Treaties of the Great Seth:
According to “ The Second Treatise of the Great Seth” it describes Jesus not succumbing to the plan they devised for him. That he did not die in reality but appeared to them so, according to their sight and thought he was suffered and succumbed to fear.
“…For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death”[1]
It goes onto say that indeed they saw they where punishing him but it was another, their own man they nailed onto the cross and who drank the Vinegar, it also suggest it was Simon of cyrene, that they were deaf and blind and he, Jesus, was laughing at their ignorance.
4.2. The Acts of John:
The Act of John describes that John seeing that suffering of Jesus did not abide but fled unto the Mount of Olives, where he went to weep. Than Jesus appears in the midst of the cave and says:
“…John, unto the multitude below in Jerusalem I am being crucified and pierced with lances and reeds, and gall and vinegar is given me to drink….”[2] Jesus put it into the John’s mind for him to come up to this mountain so he can hear what Jesus has to say.
Jesus goes unto say “...Nothing, therefore, of the things which they will say of me have I suffered: nay, that suffering also which I showed unto thee and the rest in the dance…”[2]
That what you hear, did not happen to him, but was made to appear so, to the people present there.
“… Thou hearest that I suffered, yet did I not suffer; that I suffered not, yet did I suffer; that I was pierced, yet I was not smitten; hanged, and I was not hanged; that blood flowed from me, and it flowed not; and, in a word, what they say of me, that befell me not, but what they say not, that did I suffer…”[2]
Afterwards Jesus was taken up, and no one in the multitude beheld him.
4.3 Coptic The Apocalypse of Peter:
The Coptic Apocalypse of Peter reveals an interesting conversation between Peter and Jesus, where Peter sees they are taking Jesus, asks “who is the one glad and laughing on the tree, and is it another whom the feet and hand they are striking?”[3]
Jesus replies that the one on the tree is the living Jesus, but the one that peter sees is the substitute that came to being in his likeness.
“...He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me…”[3]
The narration goes onto say that Jesus, comes and tell that the one they crucified is a stony vessel where the demon resides, but the one standing near him is the real Jesus whom the arrested and released. Jesus laughs at their perception, knowing they are born blind.
4.4 The (First) Apocalypse of James:
According to the Apocalypse of James that when James heard of His suffering he went to the mountain called Gaugelan with his disciples where he prayed and waited for a sign of him. Jesus appears and John stops he’s prayer, embraces Jesus and kisses him, and say’s:
"Rabbi, I have found you! I have heard of your sufferings, which you endured. And I have been much distressed. My compassion you know. Therefore, on reflection, I was wishing that I would not see this people. They must be judged for these things that they have done. For these things that they have done are contrary to what is fitting."[4]
Jesus replied "...James, do not be concerned for me or for this people...” and that he did not undergo any suffering contrary to what James heard. Jesus say’s:
“...Never have I suffered in any way, nor have I been distressed. And this people has done me no harm...”[4]
5.0 Conclusion:
In conclusion this studies reveals an interesting fact concerning Jesus crucifixion whether was he crucified or not is contested before and still is now. It also sheds some light that Jesus crucifixion was not so readily believed amongst the followers and was not a common dogma during the period of early Christian faith.
What should be noted that all these scriptures reveals and agrees that it appeared to the multitude (i.e. they saw) that Jesus did get crucified and was killed on the stake (cross). However with the exception of the bible they insist it was not Jesus who in reality got crucified.
This does not change what is in the bible or the Christian belief, nor does it change what is in the Quran or the Muslim belief.
Peace.
Ref:
[1] Translated by Roger A. Bullard and Joseph A. Gibbons, The Second Treatise of the Great Seth, Selection made from James M. Robinson, ed., The Nag Hammadi Library, revised edition. HarperCollins, San Francisco, 1990.
[2] M.R. James-Translation and Notes, The Acts of John (verse 97-103), The Apocryphal New Testament, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1924
[3] Translated by James Brashler and Roger A. Bullard, (Coptic) The Apocalypse of Peter, Selection made from James M. Robinson, ed., The Nag Hammadi Library, revised edition. HarperCollins, San Francisco, 1990.
[4] Translated by William R. Schoedel, The (First) Apocalypse of James, Selection made from James M. Robinson, ed., The Nag Hammadi Library, revised edition. HarperCollins, San Francisco, 1990.
Well hear you have a choice, what I am suggesting that Jesus died on the cross was not undisputed belief.
Just that Jesus dying in the cross became a prominent belief in one way or anoter.
Other beliefs concerning Jesus death either got supressed, lost or destroyed later on.
Crucifixion of Jesus.
by Musa. (CopyRighted by me, non-reproducable without permission)
Unedited version. (Primary version with more work needed)
1.0 Introduction:
Christianity holds that Jesus got crucified on the cross for the redemption of the sin of mankind through shedding of his blood.
The Nicene Creed makes it an article of faith to believe in the crucifixion of Jesus:
“For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures;”[Nicene creed]
Islam holds that Jesus did not get crucified.
The purpose of this article is to reveals further insight concerning the crucifixion professed by these two faiths.
2.0. Crucifixion of Jesus according to the Bible
2.1. Leading up to the crucifixion:
Leading before the arrest of Jesus, Judas betrays him for money and all the disciples desert him and fled.
Gospel according to Luke describe Jesus being blasphemy by admitting His the son of God, when accused at the presence of the council of elders (Luke 22:70-71).
The next early morning the chief priests, with the elders, the teachers of the law and the whole Sanhedrin, reached a decision. They bound Jesus, led him away and handed him over to Pilate.
However in front of Pilate Jesus is accused of subverting the nation and opposing the payment of taxes as well as calling himself of Christ, King and stirring up the people of Judea (Luke 23: 1-2). Although Pilate seems to acknowledge there is no basis for the charge brought on nor did Herod whom Jesus was sent onto. The narration goes onto say Pilate opposed the crucifixion of Jesus but with the consent insistence of the Jews present he finally releases him to their will.
According Matthew narrates that Pilate has Jesus flogged before handing him over to them.
2.2 The Crucifixion:
The scripture according to Luke describes as Jesus was led away to be crucified with two other criminals and Simon from cyrene (the father of Alexander and Rufus according to Mark 15:21) was made to carry the cross behind Jesus. They crucified Jesus along with the two criminals one on his left and the other on his right. The people cast lots to decide who will divide his clothes. The people watched him and Rulers sneered at him. Soldiers mocked him to save himself and offered him wine vinegar.
Jesus died when “It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, for the sun stopped shining…”(Luke 23:44-45)
All the people who gathered there to watch left but the women who followed from Galilee from a distance watch the spectacle. However according to Matthew Many women where watching from the distance who had followed from Galilee, amongst them Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons. (Mark adds “Salome” to the list)
However Gospel according to John that Jesus mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene stood by the Cross of Jesus and was indeed witness to the event. (John19:25)
The short account provided above, of the crucifixion, is according to the gospels that Christiana generally believe in.
3.0 Jesus Crucifixion according to the Quran:
According to the Quran Jesus did not get crucified but it was made to appear to them. This is provided in the Yusuf Ali translation of the Quran:
“That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-“ (Quran 4:157)
The Quran does not allude to how it was made to appear to them, i.e. whether it was someone else, an illusion.
4.0 Jesus Crucifixion according to other early Christian writing:
We have seen the position of the bible teaching on the death of Jesus, which did take place, and we have seen the Quran position on the Jesus Crucifixion, which Jesus did not get crucified but it was made to appear to them.
Coming away from the bible, and looking elsewhere we find interesting statements in a collection of thirteen ancient codices containing over fifty texts that seems to have survived, discovered in 1945 Egypt, when once thought to be destroyed during early Christian struggle to define “Orthodoxy”
4.1. The Second Treaties of the Great Seth:
According to “ The Second Treatise of the Great Seth” it describes Jesus not succumbing to the plan they devised for him. That he did not die in reality but appeared to them so, according to their sight and thought he was suffered and succumbed to fear.
“…For my death, which they think happened, (happened) to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death”[1]
It goes onto say that indeed they saw they where punishing him but it was another, their own man they nailed onto the cross and who drank the Vinegar, it also suggest it was Simon of cyrene, that they were deaf and blind and he, Jesus, was laughing at their ignorance.
4.2. The Acts of John:
The Act of John describes that John seeing that suffering of Jesus did not abide but fled unto the Mount of Olives, where he went to weep. Than Jesus appears in the midst of the cave and says:
“…John, unto the multitude below in Jerusalem I am being crucified and pierced with lances and reeds, and gall and vinegar is given me to drink….”[2] Jesus put it into the John’s mind for him to come up to this mountain so he can hear what Jesus has to say.
Jesus goes unto say “...Nothing, therefore, of the things which they will say of me have I suffered: nay, that suffering also which I showed unto thee and the rest in the dance…”[2]
That what you hear, did not happen to him, but was made to appear so, to the people present there.
“… Thou hearest that I suffered, yet did I not suffer; that I suffered not, yet did I suffer; that I was pierced, yet I was not smitten; hanged, and I was not hanged; that blood flowed from me, and it flowed not; and, in a word, what they say of me, that befell me not, but what they say not, that did I suffer…”[2]
Afterwards Jesus was taken up, and no one in the multitude beheld him.
4.3 Coptic The Apocalypse of Peter:
The Coptic Apocalypse of Peter reveals an interesting conversation between Peter and Jesus, where Peter sees they are taking Jesus, asks “who is the one glad and laughing on the tree, and is it another whom the feet and hand they are striking?”[3]
Jesus replies that the one on the tree is the living Jesus, but the one that peter sees is the substitute that came to being in his likeness.
“...He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me…”[3]
The narration goes onto say that Jesus, comes and tell that the one they crucified is a stony vessel where the demon resides, but the one standing near him is the real Jesus whom the arrested and released. Jesus laughs at their perception, knowing they are born blind.
4.4 The (First) Apocalypse of James:
According to the Apocalypse of James that when James heard of His suffering he went to the mountain called Gaugelan with his disciples where he prayed and waited for a sign of him. Jesus appears and John stops he’s prayer, embraces Jesus and kisses him, and say’s:
"Rabbi, I have found you! I have heard of your sufferings, which you endured. And I have been much distressed. My compassion you know. Therefore, on reflection, I was wishing that I would not see this people. They must be judged for these things that they have done. For these things that they have done are contrary to what is fitting."[4]
Jesus replied "...James, do not be concerned for me or for this people...” and that he did not undergo any suffering contrary to what James heard. Jesus say’s:
“...Never have I suffered in any way, nor have I been distressed. And this people has done me no harm...”[4]
5.0 Conclusion:
In conclusion this studies reveals an interesting fact concerning Jesus crucifixion whether was he crucified or not is contested before and still is now. It also sheds some light that Jesus crucifixion was not so readily believed amongst the followers and was not a common dogma during the period of early Christian faith.
What should be noted that all these scriptures reveals and agrees that it appeared to the multitude (i.e. they saw) that Jesus did get crucified and was killed on the stake (cross). However with the exception of the bible they insist it was not Jesus who in reality got crucified.
This does not change what is in the bible or the Christian belief, nor does it change what is in the Quran or the Muslim belief.
Peace.
Ref:
[1] Translated by Roger A. Bullard and Joseph A. Gibbons, The Second Treatise of the Great Seth, Selection made from James M. Robinson, ed., The Nag Hammadi Library, revised edition. HarperCollins, San Francisco, 1990.
[2] M.R. James-Translation and Notes, The Acts of John (verse 97-103), The Apocryphal New Testament, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1924
[3] Translated by James Brashler and Roger A. Bullard, (Coptic) The Apocalypse of Peter, Selection made from James M. Robinson, ed., The Nag Hammadi Library, revised edition. HarperCollins, San Francisco, 1990.
[4] Translated by William R. Schoedel, The (First) Apocalypse of James, Selection made from James M. Robinson, ed., The Nag Hammadi Library, revised edition. HarperCollins, San Francisco, 1990.
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Re: sura 4:157
I could not agree more.
I don't think I have ever agreed this much with you
And long time no see in this section.
I could not agree more.
I don't think I have ever agreed this much with you
And long time no see in this section.