Crucifixion

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Re: sura 4:157

Greetings,
Many historians note that there were many sects during the early years of Christianity who differed on these beliefs, but they were the subject of brutal persecution and extermination which is in no way reflective of true Christian teachings. I will quote some of the historical research by Dr. Laurence Brown:
On the other hand, if the concept of another crucified in place of Jesus sounds foreign to Christianity, it isn’t. Amongst early Christian groups the Corinthians, the Basilidians, the Paulicians, and the Carpocratians all believed Christ Jesus to have been spared. The Basilidians, in specific, believed that Simon of Cyrene was crucified in his place. Typical of such dissenting groups, all of the above were judged to have been Gnostics and/or heretics by the orthodox Church, and were violently suppressed by a Trinitarian majority who systematically burned dissenters into oblivion for the first fifteen centuries of Roman Catholic rule (the most recent roasting having taken place in Mexico in 1,850 CE).

To be fair, Gnostic ideology did have a place in many, if not most or even all groups regarded to be dissenters from orthodoxy. But then again, Gnosticism has a place in Orthodoxy as well, for what is ‘gnosis’ if not the belief that initiates possess some esoteric but essential knowledge necessary for salvation, but which can neither be explained nor justified? And what else has the discussion of the preceding pages exposed, if not the lack of scriptural foundation for the canon of Trinitarian Orthodoxy?

Of the above groups, the Paulicians (initially known as ‘Paulinians,’ likely due to taking guidance from Paul of Samosata) hold special interest. Paul of Samosata reportedly took his teaching from Diodorus, head of the Nazarene Church in Antioch. His teachings in turn branched off the trunk of apostolic ideology through individuals such as Lucian (who in turn taught Arius), Eusebius of Nicomedia, and even Nestorius (whose sphere of influence expanded from Eastern Europe as far east as China and as far south as Abyssinia). The Paulician influence eventually spread to occupy most, if not all, of Europe and North Africa. Yet so complete was their annihilation by the Roman Catholic Church during the period of persecution, that both they and their books were virtually completely destroyed. Only in the mid-nineteenth century was one of their sacred books, The Key of Truth, discovered in Armenia and translated. From this document a view of the practices and beliefs responsible for the popularity of this group can be appreciated.

The Paulicians may invite condemnation for their dualistic ideology, acceptance of suicide, and excess of asceticism. Notable is the peculiar Paulician concept of Christ Jesus having been a phantasm, and not a man. On the other hand, the Paulicians did adhere to belief in Divine Unity, the Immaculate Conception, baptism, and other creeds and practices which date from the apostolic age. Included in the list of their particulars is the apparent lack of an organized priesthood or hierarchy of clergy. The leaders married and had families. The services were characterized by simplicity of worship and the lack of sacraments – not even holy water was accepted in their services. The Paulicians refused to adopt any visible object of worship – no relics, no images, not even the cross. All images, whether paintings or sculpture, were viewed as idolatrous, foreign to the teachings of Jesus, and in violation of the second commandment. The doctrine of Incarnation appears to have been denied, as were the doctrines of Original Sin and the Trinity, all rejected on the basis of lacking scriptural foundation. The Paulicians denied the alleged crucifixion of Jesus, and consequently rejected the doctrines of Resurrection, Atonement, and Redemption of Sins.

The Paulicians also shunned infant baptism as an innovation distant from the teachings and practice of Jesus, claiming that baptism without mature faith and repentance was of little or no value. Celebration of Christmas was likewise avoided on the grounds of being a manmade holiday constructed as a concession of the Catholic Church to coincide with the pagan festival of Sol Invictus (celebration of the return of the Sun-god [i.e. Sol invictus – the Invincible Sun] every year on December 25, which coincides with the winter solstice). Tithes were neither solicited nor accepted. Strict diet was maintained, devotion to worship in all aspects of life stressed, and cleanliness of temper, thoughts, work and words aspired to.

One inquisitor described such heretics under the following umbrella:
“Heretics are recognizable by their customs and speech, for they are modest and well regulated. They take no pride in their garments, which are neither costly nor vile. They do not engage in trade, to avoid lies and oaths and frauds, but they live by their labour as mechanics—their teachers are cobblers. They do not accumulate wealth, but are content with necessaries. They are chaste and temperate in meat and drink. They do not frequent taverns or dances or other vanities. They restrain themselves from anger. They are always at work; they teach and learn and consequently pray but little. They are to be known by their modesty and precision of speech, avoiding scurrility and detraction and light words and lies and oaths.” [1]​
A better model based upon the mold of the carpenter-King might be difficult to find. St. Bernard was quoted as having commented,
“If you interrogate them, nothing can be more Christian; as to their conversation, nothing can be less reprehensible, and what they speak they prove by deeds. As for the morals of the heretic, he cheats no one, he oppresses no one, he strikes no one; his cheeks are pale with fasting, he eats not the bread of idleness, his hands labour for his livelihood.”[2]​
But for their creed, they were killed. Over a period of centuries the Paulicians were hounded wherever they were to be found. The reign of Empress Theodora during the 9th century was known for the re-establishment of image worship in Constantinople and, as E. Gibbon notes,
“Her inquisitors explored the cities and mountains of the Lesser Asia, and the flatterers of the empress have affirmed, that, in a short reign, one hundred thousand Paulicians were extirpated by the sword, the gibbet, or the flames.”[3]​
The Paulicians eventually were driven from Armenia to Thrace, and on to Bulgaria. From Bulgaria they spread to Serbia, Bosnia and Herzegovinia, then north to Germany; west to France, and south into Italy. By sea they found routes to Venice, Sicily and Southern France. The rapid expansion of the Paulicians, who also became known as the ‘Catharii’ (meaning ‘the Pure’), became a threat to the Roman Catholic Church, and they were condemned at the Councils of Orleans in 1022, of Lombard in 1165, and of Verona in 1184. Not until the Medieval Inquisition of the thirteenth century was the church able to act upon their condemnation of the Paulicians, but then, opening floodgates on the dammed-up hostility of several centuries, they applied the full force of their vehement hatred with a vengeance sufficient to sever their lineage. The loss of the Paulicians, and of the various other Christian sects cloned from similar ideological germ cells, testifies to the terrible efficacy of the religious cleansing of the Medieval Inquisition and subsequent periods of persecution. F. C. Conybeare comments,
“It was no empty vow of their elect ones, ‘to be baptized with the baptism of Christ, to take on themselves scourgings, imprisonments, tortures, reproaches, crosses, blows, tribulation, and all temptations of the world.’ Theirs the tears, theirs the blood shed during more than ten centuries of fierce persecution in the East; and if we reckon of their number, as well we may, the early puritans of Europe, then the tale of wicked deeds wrought by the persecuting churches reaches dimensions which appal the mind. And as it was all done, nominally out of reverence for, but really in mockery of, the Prince of Peace, it is hard to say of the Inquisitors that they knew not what they did.”[4]​
That the Catholic Church was so effective in eliminating their opposition is of no surprise to those who study their methodology. The degree of savagery did not even spare their own people, at times sacrificing members of the orthodoxy to insure complete elimination of the Unitarians. For example, the mixed population of Catholics and Unitarians of the people of Beziers, in the South of France, were attacked in the following manner:
“From infancy in arms to tottering age, not one was spared – seven thousand, it is said, were slaughtered in the Church of Mary Magdalen to which they had fled for asylum – and the total number of slain is set down by the legates at nearly twenty thousand.”[5]​
The full horror of the callous cruelty of the leader of this massacre comes into focus in consideration of the fact that:
“A fervent Cistercian contemporary informs us that when Arnaud was asked whether the Catholics should be spared, he feared the heretics would escape by feigning orthodoxy, and fiercely replied, ‘Kill them all, for God knows his own!’ In the mad carnage and pillage the town was set on fire, and the sun of that awful July day closed on a mass of smouldering ruins and blackened corpses – a holocaust to a deity of mercy and love whom the Cathari might well be pardoned for regarding as the Principle of Evil.”[6]​
The use of torture by the inquisitors was equally horrific, for it did not end at confession. Once confession was offered torture was renewed to extract names of associates. Following this information, torture was again continued to ensure the last drop of information was squeezed from the mangled husk of what had once been a human being.

Once accused, the pitiful defendant was bound to suffer. Torture yielded an invariable result, if not out of truth, then out of desperation to bring an end to the pain. Horrifically, protestations of innocence and even the oath of orthodoxy did not bring relief, for suspects professing orthodox belief were committed to suffer a test of faith, of which the Church was creative. Trials by water and fire were popularized and sanctioned by the Catholic Church for the testing of a person’s faith by way of ‘Judicium Dei’ -- ‘Judgement of God.’ The concept was based upon the belief that the purity of water would not accept a guilty body into its midst (i.e. floaters were judged guilty and executed, sinkers were considered innocent, and if rescued before drowning, spared), while earthly fire, like the fire of Hell, would be forbidden to harm those who (in their view) were the faithful Christians bearing the promise of paradise. The ‘Hot Iron Test’ was the most commonly employed, as it was simple and readily available. In this test the accused was required to carry a red-hot piece of iron for a certain number of steps, usually nine. Judgement was offered either at the time of the test (those burned were judged guilty) or several days later (those whose wounds were healing were considered innocent, whereas those whose wounds showed signs of infection were judged guilty). Other variations existed, such as determining whether or not a person suffered a burn when an arm was immersed up to the elbow in boiling water or boiling oil.

Lest a person presume such methods rarely employed, the Council of Rheims in 1157 decreed that such trials by ordeal be employed to satisfy all cases of suspected heresy.[7]

Now, why all this discussion about what is now a little known and dead sect? Well, the intent is neither to glorify any religious sect beyond the merits of its ideology, nor to evoke sympathy for their cause. Rather, the above discussion is intended to call home the realization that alternate Christian ideologies occupied a position of significance in religious history -- a position which has for the most part become obscure in the shadow of prevailing Trinitarianism. The Corinthians, the Basilidians, the Paulicians, and the Carpocratians may be little known today, but they had a place in history. History, however, has not only been written by those who prevailed, but systematic effort to erase the record of all scriptures contrary to those of the Roman Catholic Church was largely successful in the first millennium of Roman Catholic rule. Additionally, historical attempts to villainize all other religions or sects of Christianity has prejudiced the minds of much of the populace. So successful were these efforts that the records and holy books of those who appear to have been closest to the worship of the apostolic fathers have been largely lost. Similarly, those closest to embodying the practices and creed of the prophet Jesus have come to be regarded as ‘heretics,’ not for any error inherent to their beliefs, but simply because they do not embrace the ‘evolved’ doctrines of that religious body which gained official sanction. In other words they became condemned for non-conformity -- non-conformity with views which, though lacking scriptural authority, were selected by men of position and propagated for reason of political expediency.

One of the curious elements of Trinitarian history lies in the fact that almost everywhere it went in the Christian world, it had to be imposed upon a previously Unitarian people. The Donatists and the Arians, the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths, the Vandals and the Paulicians all had to be muscled aside prior to the imposition of lasting Trinitarian rule. Even in England and Ireland there is suspicion that, contrary to official historical accounts, a good portion of the population were Unitarian Christian prior to receiving Trinitarian influence. Whereas Unitarians attempted to spread faith through example and invitation, the Roman Catholic Church spread Trinitarian faith by shearing the populace with the wickedly sharp blades of compulsion and elimination. Once the land was theirs, the torture marks and scars where the blades had bitten too deeply were covered with a thick ointment of claims of heresy and alterations in the accuracy of recorded history, for the satisfaction of those who would otherwise question the vicious methodology.

Reviewing what can be surmised from unprejudiced historical accounts, opposing views to those of Trinitarian Christianity are seen to have been voiced by a large population of the religious, and spanning the known world. And the opinions of those who denied the crucifixion and death of Christ Jesus were not necessarily either a minority in their time or incorrect in their claim. All that not withstanding, many would argue that from a gut level it makes more sense for God to have punished Judas for his treachery than to have tortured Jesus for his innocence. The argument would become more convincing if the doctrines of atonement and original sin could be shown to be invalid, for these two doctrines hinge off the doorframe of the alleged death of Jesus. The first hurdle for many people in considering such revolutionary thoughts straddles the ages old assertion that Christ Jesus was the “Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world” (John 1:29), for in the mind of the Trinitarian, this verse can have no relevance other than to that of the doctrine of atonement. Unitarians, however, conceive Jesus to have lived a life of sacrifice in order to bear a purifying teaching which, if adopted, would cleanse the world of deviation.
__________________
[1] Lea, Henry Charles. 1958. A History of The Inquisition of The Middle Ages. Vol. I. New York: Russell & Russell. p. 85.
[2] Lea, Henry Charles. Vol. I, p. 101.
[3] Gibbon, Edward, Esq. Vol. 6, Chapter LIV, p. 242.
[4] Conybeare, Fred. C., M.A. 1898. The Key of Truth. Oxford: Clarendon Press. Preface, p. xi.
[5] Lea, Henry Charles. Vol. I, p. 154.
[6] Lea, Henry Charles. Vol. I, p. 154.
[7] Lea, Henry Charles. Vol. I, p. 306.


Regards

 
Re: sura 4:157

I would like to know how - according to the Qu'ran - another person was arrested and cricified in Jesus' place.
Who was this substitute?
How did the switch take place?
Where did Jesus go, and when was he taken up to heaven?
Actually it won't be suprising if some early christian asked the very same question and tried to fill in those Gaps.
But what answers does the Qu'ran give to these questions?

Peace
 
Re: sura 4:157

Coming away from the bible, and looking elsewhere we find interesting statements in a collection of thirteen ancient codices containing over fifty texts that seems to have survived, discovered in 1945 Egypt, when once thought to be destroyed during early Christian struggle to define “Orthodoxy”

4.1. The Second Treaties of the Great Seth:
4.2. The Acts of John:
4.3 Coptic The Apocalypse of Peter:
4.4 The (First) Apocalypse of James:

One question bothers me:
Why Muslim find gnostic gospels reliable, when they say that Jesus wasn't crucified, but when the very same text says, that Jesus was divine and NOT human, those gospels suddenly become unreliable?

In fact, that's not the only question i have....
If you accept gnostic gospels as more reliable, then what about the fact, that most gnostic gospel (also form Nag Hammdi) accept crucifixion???


btw: it's not true that Acts of John were discovered in 1945 in Egipt. This text doesn't belong to Nag Hammadi library.
 
Re: sura 4:157

Read my previouse post. Post Number 19
Ah ... I missed that. :rollseyes

I gather from your post that the only reference in the Qu'ran is this:
“That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-“ (Quran 4:157)
Would that be correct? Or are there other references?

If this is the only verse in the Qu'ran, it answers my question, in the sense that the Qu'ran offers no answer to my previous questions ...
"I would like to know how - according to the Qu'ran - another person was arrested and cricified in Jesus' place.
Who was this substitute?
How did the switch take place?
Where did Jesus go, and when was he taken up to heaven?"


peace
 
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Re: sura 4:157

Hi, I still gotta reply to the Jesus and Jihad thing, InshaAllah I wont forget :p
and nice to see you back.

One question bothers me:
Why Muslim find gnostic gospels reliable, when they say that Jesus wasn't crucified, but when the very same text says, that Jesus was divine and NOT human, those gospels suddenly become unreliable?

In fact, that's not the only question i have....
If you accept gnostic gospels as more reliable, then what about the fact, that most gnostic gospel (also form Nag Hammdi) accept crucifixion???


btw: it's not true that Acts of John were discovered in 1945 in Egipt. This text doesn't belong to Nag Hammadi library.

Since you mentioned Muslims I assume yuo mean me aswell, so I will give my personal opinion.

I don't say Gnostic gospels are all reliable, I think it depends on which one and so forth. I don't think any Muslim will hold the view that any Gospel is with us 100% so maybe the accept the non-crucifixion to be true, but then not the divinity, because they hold the Qu'ran to be the testing method, because they see the Qu'ran as established truth, they know that anything that contradicts it is not true, thus they might believe the parts that dont contradict and leave the parts that do.

I hope that kinda explains it.
 
Re: sura 4:157

One question bothers me:
Why Muslim find gnostic gospels reliable, when they say that Jesus wasn't crucified, but when the very same text says, that Jesus was divine and NOT human, those gospels suddenly become unreliable?

It was not about the reliability of the text. It was about stressing the fact that "Jesus not dying on the cross but appeared to them" made it into some early (gnostic) scriptural writing in one form or another, despite how far removed their belief is.

It is possible that they drawed such belief from other traditions.


In fact, that's not the only question i have....
If you accept gnostic gospels as more reliable, then what about the fact, that most gnostic gospel (also form Nag Hammdi) accept crucifixion???

And vice versa. That's what I am only stressing. (However I am not sure about the "most gnostic gospel")

..and to end it...

Yusuf Ali translation of the Quran:

“That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-“ (Quran 4:157)


btw: it's not true that Acts of John were discovered in 1945 in Egipt. This text doesn't belong to Nag Hammadi library.

Sorry about that, I rushed it, and never got around to do editing it. (I did say it was un-edited.
 
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Re: sura 4:157

Ad. Ansar's post (i won't quote it, it's too long):

Paulicianism is a heresy started around VII AD (wiki: "flourished between 650 and 872 in Anatolia", and as a year of founding "about 656"). I'm not sure if we can accept it as early Christianity....
Still every religion has it heresy.
I'm not good in Islams history, and the only "heresy" i can name are Mutazilits. Using them, i could argue that first Muslims believed that Quran was created.
And my argument would be stronger at the point, that Mutazilits were much closer in time to first Muslims, than Paulicians to first Christians.

Hi, I still gotta reply to the Jesus and Jihad thing, InshaAllah I wont forget :p
and nice to see you back..
don't worry, I'm very patient person :D
Since you mentioned Muslims I assume yuo mean me aswell, so I will give my personal opinion.
i probably shouldn't use such a general word as "Muslims" :rollseyes

I don't say Gnostic gospels are all reliable, I think it depends on which one and so forth. I don't think any Muslim will hold the view that any Gospel is with us 100% so maybe the accept the non-crucifixion to be true, but then not the divinity, because they hold the Qu'ran to be the testing method, because they see the Qu'ran as established truth, they know that anything that contradicts it is not true, thus they might believe the parts that dont contradict and leave the parts that do.
I hope that kinda explains it.
yes, it explains. but as you see to accept such an argument, you have to accept Quran's authority. If you don't then this way of reasoning is a bit incoherent.
It was not about the reliability of the text. It was about stressing the fact that "Jesus not dying on the cross but appeared to them" made it into some early (gnostic) scriptural writing in one form or another, despite how far removed their belief is.
If it was only about it, then you have made your point.:)
I will add that this idea could be found in a few gnostic gospels [only 3 (i trust you here) texts out of around 50 (not sure about number) in Nag Hammadi; and in 1 (once again: you are my source :D) non-Nag Hammadi gnostic gospel (out of many, many)], which are not considered "reliable" neither by Muslims (because of their way of thinking about Jesus) nor by Christians (for the same reason)

there is a prayer in the Catholic church that says different than what is said above, you can believe what you want, i am just trying to give a different interpretation of what happened. This particular prayer is said at every mass in the Catholic church, it is called the Apostles Creed and reads as follows:

I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; he descended into hell; the third day he rose again from the dead; he ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost; the holy catholic Church; the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. AMEN.
i came across now quote recently:
Here I stand; I can do no other. God help me. Amen.
Martin Luther :D
...and it's not only catholic creed!! It's also accepted by many Protestants and some Orthodox Churches!!
 
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Re: sura 4:157

yes, it explains. but as you see to accept such an argument, you have to accept Quran's authority. If you don't then this way of reasoning is a bit incoherent.

Yep, that is why muslims should not say to others, accept it because the Quran says it, first they should rather show that the quran is what they believe it to be.

Then the logic might make more sense

or the muslim could just show the knowledge in the area that is being talkedabout.
 
Re: sura 4:157

Hi Duskiness,
I believe you missed the point in the material I quoted. If I may highlight some of the key points again:
On the other hand, if the concept of another crucified in place of Jesus sounds foreign to Christianity, it isn’t. Amongst early Christian groups the Corinthians, the Basilidians, the Paulicians, and the Carpocratians all believed Christ Jesus to have been spared. The Basilidians, in specific, believed that Simon of Cyrene was crucified in his place.

Now, why all this discussion about what is now a little known and dead sect? Well, the intent is neither to glorify any religious sect beyond the merits of its ideology, nor to evoke sympathy for their cause. Rather, the above discussion is intended to call home the realization that alternate Christian ideologies occupied a position of significance in religious history -- a position which has for the most part become obscure in the shadow of prevailing Trinitarianism. The Corinthians, the Basilidians, the Paulicians, and the Carpocratians may be little known today, but they had a place in history. History, however, has not only been written by those who prevailed, but systematic effort to erase the record of all scriptures contrary to those of the Roman Catholic Church was largely successful in the first millennium of Roman Catholic rule.

Reviewing what can be surmised from unprejudiced historical accounts, opposing views to those of Trinitarian Christianity are seen to have been voiced by a large population of the religious, and spanning the known world. And the opinions of those who denied the crucifixion and death of Christ Jesus were not necessarily either a minority in their time or incorrect in their claim.
So again, the point is not that these early sects were all correct in their beliefs and were the original true followers of Christ. The point is that the notion that belief in crucifixion or trinity has been the accepted creed of the majority of Christians throughout time is not entirely accurate. There were many early dissenting groups who were silenced often violently.
Paulicianism is a heresy started around VII AD (wiki: "flourished between 650 and 872 in Anatolia", and as a year of founding "about 656"). I'm not sure if we can accept it as early Christianity....
That is when it emerged as a movement under the name 'paulicianism' but as Dr. Brown points out the possible conntection to earlier figures most probable of them being Paul of Samosata (d. 275AD).
Still every religion has it heresy.
Absolutely. Hopefully from the above you will see why arguing that point is a strawman,

Regards
 
Re: sura 4:157

Well hear you have a choice, what I am suggesting that Jesus died on the cross was not undisputed belief.
Just that Jesus dying in the cross became a prominent belief in one way or anoter.

Other beliefs concerning Jesus death either got supressed, lost or destroyed later on.






Coming away from the bible, and looking elsewhere we find interesting statements in a collection of thirteen ancient codices containing over fifty texts that seems to have survived, discovered in 1945 Egypt, when once thought to be destroyed during early Christian struggle to define “Orthodoxy”

4.1. The Second Treaties of the Great Seth:

4.2. The Acts of John:

4.3 Coptic The Apocalypse of Peter:

4.4 The (First) Apocalypse of James:

5.0 Conclusion:

In conclusion this studies reveals an interesting fact concerning Jesus crucifixion whether was he crucified or not is contested before and still is now. It also sheds some light that Jesus crucifixion was not so readily believed amongst the followers and was not a common dogma during the period of early Christian faith.
What should be noted that all these scriptures reveals and agrees that it appeared to the multitude (i.e. they saw) that Jesus did get crucified and was killed on the stake (cross). However with the exception of the bible they insist it was not Jesus who in reality got crucified.
This does not change what is in the bible or the Christian belief, nor does it change what is in the Quran or the Muslim belief.

Peace.


My apologies for asking a few questions and then not being able to keep up with this thread. I still owe Eesa and others answers to questions they have put to me and will attempt to get to them. For the moment, allow me to make a quick response here.

You are most correct in saying that there were those within Christendom who expressed a view that it was not Christ who died upon the cross. And the documents you cite are those in which this expression is found. And you are also correct in saying that these documents and their teachings were suppressed and even lost until recently. But what is more telling about these documents is that they are NOT the oldest of Christian writings which speak about Jesus crucifixion (or supposed crucifixion, depending on one's point of view). These writings are, as I am sure you are well aware, from the Nag Hammadi collection and while the actual manuscripts in hand are from the 3rd and 4th century the original text is probably older, dating to even the 2nd century.

But being a 2nd century document is what makes it suspect. Perhaps you can correct me on this and find other dating of this material (and if so, I am interested), but I know of no 1st century Christians writings that speak of someone other than Jesus being the one on the cross. Not only Christians writing, but even the Jewish historian Josephus writes about Jesus crucifixion (which isn't so important) and that it was a fixture of Christian belief (which is important to our discussion).

Let be clear. I am in agreement with you that there are Christians writings (albiet gnostic in character) that talk about someone other than Jesus dying on the cross. But that idea is a 2nd century development and was not a part of the original belief, teaching, nor writings of first century Christianity or present among the contemporaries of Jesus. Thus in contrast to your position above, and in part because of the very evidence you cited, I hold that Jesus' crucifixion was indeed readily believed amongst the followers and was indeed a common dogma during the period of earliest Christian faith.

The corruption under exposure to gnostic influences came later, as is evidence by the Nag Hammadi documents, and it was precisely for this reason (namely that they were corrupted and did not represent the original teachings of the faith) that they were surpressed.
 
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Re: sura 4:157

I wanted to add a rule at the beginning to prevent the common, ping-pong arguments that tend to happen. A rule of discernment is what keeps things more condensed. Discernment is what we all should desire to grow in from our youth on up to old age. Wisdom comes with discernment, I think we can all agree with that. So to be wise, discerning intellectuals, let us agree to only comment with objective truth. Objective means only those truth statements that can be proven as fact, to the casual observer. Often scripture is used as objective fact, but even that will have to be proven for this thread, okay? Historical facts, archaological facts, witnesses, are examples for establilshing objective truth. Prophecies are always to be questioned until proven to be a true prophet. Scripture can be used only if proven to be the Word of Allah, by some objective means.

These are rules of discernment that should be common amoung intelligent men and women. Let us go forward with this intent.

Let me know if you all agree.

Shehzad

i hope i am being wise and discerning and intellectual in this post, lol!
i find it strange when religious people try to apply scientific concepts to religion. in my view, religion requires no proof.
this may be a stupid question (it won't be the first time) - is there "objective truth" and has there been proof that jesus even existed? please don't be offended by this question - i do not mean it that way.
how could it possibly be "objectively proven" whether he died or didn't die, rose from the dead or didn't rise?
 
The objectivity of the thread is not wheter Jesus crucifixion, death and ressurection can be proven beyond considerable doubt with some hard evidence, a thing we are not witness to.
What we can provide is what people at close to his time or part of his legacy believed considering this topic, which is difficult topic itself considering that much of the text got burnt with the heretic. This is where I need more research & time, and give apt & plausible response to Grace seeker. Also not forgetting that one can use what is only available.

Fundementaly what this texts show's (taken they are 2nd century) is that the alteriar belief of Jesus crucifixion is no later than 2nd century. It is also plausible given the different theme (story) of Jesus death potrayed in the 4 different scripture but all pointing to similiar concept may be an indication that it may indeed be a belief that is part of an older tradition (oral or even scriptural) that got absorbed into.

However I will not doubt that such a person Isa(pbuh) existed.
 
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However I will not doubt that such a person Isa(pbuh) existed.

just so there is no misunderstanding - i did not mean to cast doubt on whether jesus existed or not. actually, i have no opinion about it. i was just replying to the post that i quoted.
 
just so there is no misunderstanding - i did not mean to cast doubt on whether jesus existed or not. actually, i have no opinion about it. i was just replying to the post that i quoted.

Non-taken.
I was not really expecting a response, as I was not making a response to anyone in particular. Just was making a statment concerning the topic at hand, and you came in handy.
 

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