Do you believe in (dis)belief?

[Pygoscelis]

For a number of years I strongly doubted that anybody truly believed in the Gods of the Christian, Jewish, or Muslim religions. I thought people deep down knew the stories were just stories and that they only went along with them to fit into culture and to gain a sense of belonging, purpose, direction, cosmic justice etc.

I have also met many theists who do not seem to be able to accept that non-believers truly don't believe in God. They insist that atheists do believe in God but rebel against him and hide their belief in him.

I think there is a strong tendency for many of us to gravitate towards these positions, both believer and non-believer alike. But I may be wrong. What are your views on this? Do you believe in (non)belief? Do you believe others do?

 

[wilberhum]

I believe that when people say they believe that in fact they do believe.
Also,I believe that when people say they don't believe that in fact they do not believe.

Now that may change if someone is holding a sword over your head, but if there in no reason to lie, people don't.

 

[chacha_jalebi]

^ well said willy

i think the same, definately if someone says they believe then yeah they do,

also its important to realise that some people may say they believe but they dont practice, so maybe they might have doubts like you mentioned, but majority of people when they say we believe (practicin or not) they do honestly mean it

 

[glo]

I believe that some people genuinely don't believe (in God, that is).

In fact, I have met non-believers who almost wish they could believe ... but feel that they cannot.

Belief is something from within. Waking up one morning and repeating a hundred times 'I believe in God, I believe in God, I ...' will not make anybody a believer.
Either one believes or one doesn't.

Of course one can pretend to believe, but that's not the same.

Most believers will tell you that God knows our hearts and innermost feelings. Hence he also knows whether we believe or not.
In that sense running to church/synagoge/temple/mosque without really believing in the purpose behind it, would only serve our relationship with other believers - not that with God.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Woodrow]

I believe there are people who honestly disbelieve in the existence of a deity.

But, with some there does appear to be evidence that they are adamant in their stated views for the purpose of reinforcing their stated disbelief. I would say that those are the ones with the highest visibility as I believe the ones comfortable with their disbelief would be nonchalant and see no need to vocalize it.

 

[glo]

But, with some there does appear to be evidence that they are adamant in their stated views for the purpose of reinforcing their stated disbelief. I would say that those are the ones with the highest visibility as I believe the ones comfortable with their disbelief would be nonchalant and see no need to vocalize it.

Peace, Woodrow

Do you feel the same statement could be applied to believers?

"But, with some there does appear to be evidence that they are adamant in their stated views for the purpose of reinforcing their stated belief. I would say that those are the ones with the highest visibility as I believe the ones comfortable with their belief would be nonchalant and see no need to vocalize it."

 

[Woodrow]

Peace, Woodrow

Do you feel the same statement could be applied to believers?

I believe it would to a select group of believers. Those that seem to worship their religion, rather than worshipping God(swt). ie; Those who are perfect in the visible participation of the rituals, but fail to practice the meaning.

With believers I see a bit of a paradox. I strongly believe that people are born with a feeling of a belief in a power greater than themselves. As their initial belief becomes exposed to disagreement people go through a stage of adamant profession of their believes for the purpose of coming to an understanding. This is a conflict that needs to be resolved before a person is capable of believing from free choice and not peer pressure.

Once this conflict is resolved, the argument usually becomes one of the proper recognition of a diety, without further questioning of the existence of one. You will notice that arguments between Christian/Jews/ Muslims is not over the existence of God(swt), but over proper worship.

I suspect that some powerful Evangelists/Ministers/etc, have the weakest belief of the existence of God(swt). As they need continued reinforcement, as seen through the "conversion" of others, to justify their faith. In other words, they have little faith themselves, but engage in a proxy participation through the faith of others.

 

[snakelegs]

i'm a lifelong agnostic. for most of my life i held no belief about god one way or the other.
but i don't understand actively not believing in something - that too, is a belief?
i must admit, i find atheists very puzzling critters.
but if someone says something about his beliefs or disbeliefs, why would i question it?

 

[BlackMamba]

(2:7) "God; has sealed their hearts and their hearing, and over their eyes is a veil and awesome suffering awaits them."
So some can never believe.

 

[glo]

(2:7) "God; has sealed their hearts and their hearing, and over their eyes is a veil and awesome suffering awaits them."
So some can never believe.

According to Islamic teaching, are those people divinely intended to be unbelievers? Is it outside of their control?

Peace

 

[wilberhum]

(2:7) "God; has sealed their hearts and their hearing, and over their eyes is a veil and awesome suffering awaits them."
So some can never believe.

So god will send me to hell because he sealed my heart? :-\

 

[Pygoscelis]

i'm a lifelong agnostic. for most of my life i held no belief about god one way or the other.
but i don't understand actively not believing in something - that too, is a belief?

No more than not believing in unicorns or the flying spaghetti monster is a belief. I hold God as likely as them, I can't actively dismiss fully any of them for for all intents and purposes I can say they don't exist so I call myself an atheist. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any atheists who do actively believe with certainty that there is no deity.

but if someone says something about his beliefs or disbeliefs, why would i question it?

With me it was because I met so many (dozens and dozens) of people who were publicly Christian but in secret admitted to me that they really are not believers and just go along with it all due to social pressure or to please loved ones. There are as many atheists in the closet as out of it, perhaps more. This wrongly led me to overexagerate their number and I came to suspect that few if any who claimed to be believers actually were. I especially found it hard to believe that anybody could believe some of the more fantastic claims of the holy books as literally true.

 

[ummzayd]

According to Islamic teaching, are those people divinely intended to be unbelievers? Is it outside of their control?

Peace

It is not outside their control. That would be an injustice and according to Islamic teachings God is 'the Just' and He will never do an injustice to anyone. The people referred to have already made their choice, and God has reacted accordingly (bearing in mind that He knows everything, we can be sure that if there was any chance of them turning back to God with sincerity He would never refuse to forgive them and guide them).

The original question is a difficult one for me. I believe that humans have been given an innate sense of their Creator by the One who created them. Atheists, to me, are those who have turned their back on that. The athiests I know are definitely stubborn and rebellious when it comes to God, by which I mean they get terribly angry at the idea of God and the idea of bowing down and worshipping Him (almost enraged I would say). If it was simply a case of not believing in Him, I would think they would stay detached. I would add that I am not at all a confrontational debater, it is always they who bring up the question of 'God' and want to fight me about it (I am speaking mostly of family members).

I would never say to them "you know, really you DO believe in God you are just rebelling", because I don't believe it is as simple as that. There is a hadith qudsi that says something like "come closer to God by a hand's span and he will come closer to you by an arm's length; and if you go to God walking he will come to you running". Perhaps the reverse is also the case? move away from God and He will move away from you - until you turn back to Him (if you ever do).

peace

 

[Trumble]

I believe that when people say they believe that in fact they do believe.
Also,I believe that when people say they don't believe that in fact they do not believe.

Likewise, although there might be a small element of truth in what Woodrow said - both ways.

I, for one, am not remotely "rebellious". For me there is far more evidence that the Judeo/Christian/Islamic God doesn't exist than that He does, hence from my perspective a belief in God would be totally irrational. Should that weight of evidence ever change my religious views will change accordingly - but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[ricardo_sousa]

just a fair question: why believe in just one God, when we can believe in several Gods, like the romans, greeks, egypcians...?

because it is true that we can disprove the existence of God, but can we disprove the existence of several Gods?

 

[Trumble]

because it is true that we can disprove the existence of God.....

Is it? I thought the reason we (and not just "we"!) keep having this discussion is that the matter can't be proven either way.

 

[Jayda]

For a number of years I strongly doubted that anybody truly believed in the Gods of the Christian, Jewish, or Muslim religions. I thought people deep down knew the stories were just stories and that they only went along with them to fit into culture and to gain a sense of belonging, purpose, direction, cosmic justice etc.

I have also met many theists who do not seem to be able to accept that non-believers truly don't believe in God. They insist that atheists do believe in God but rebel against him and hide their belief in him.

I think there is a strong tendency for many of us to gravitate towards these positions, both believer and non-believer alike. But I may be wrong. What are your views on this? Do you believe in (non)belief? Do you believe others do?

hola,

this is an interesting question. i think it is certainly possible to believe whole heartedly in the wrong things. but who can say on an individual basis? only God can know what is in a person... and only the Holy Spirit can put the faith into people... Christians can only carry the message. i'm convinced that most of the time we will be ignored, laughed at, shrugged off or injured... but who knows what happens in time.

que Dios te bendiga

 

[------]

:salamext:

because it is true that we can disprove the existence of God, but can we disprove the existence of several Gods?

Erm... :-\

No it isn't.

 

[Woodrow]

just a fair question: why believe in just one God, when we can believe in several Gods, like the romans, greeks, egypcians...?

because it is true that we can disprove the existence of God, but can we disprove the existence of several Gods?

the simply fact of life is we can not disprove anything. This is a fallacy made by too many people when they believe they are debating.

You can not disprove that you are Joan of Arc and that you painted the Sistine chapel while you were discussing the nature of fire with Aristotle while you were being burned at the stake by by an albino werewolf.

 

[ricardo_sousa]

the simply fact of life is we can not disprove anything. This is a fallacy made by too many people when they believe they are debating.

exactly. We can´t disprove anything. But you believe in one God... you believe in your faith...

But for me "God" is a concept created by humans, just like art... There isn´t anything to believe or disbelieve... Is just a concept, an human creation to be admired.

And this is my response to this thread.