Do you recognize Israel's right to exist?

[Mustafa16]

I know this is going to sound like treason, but I recognize Israel's right to exist, however, I hate Israel's policies towards the Palestinians and believe they should be held accountable, and if they don't give the Palestinians a state, they're going to become an arab majority state anyway one way or another, probably due to demographics...
first of all, hear me out.....we, as Muslims, hate oppression, right? well, for the 1800 years the Jews were without a state, they have suffered numerous exiles, genocides, and persecutions, and have never felt safe wherever they lived....it is also a central part of Judaism that the land was "promised" to them, however, despite, from an Islamic perspective, the land was not, however, religious claims to the land will not get you anywhere, since people are stern about their religious beliefs....also, the consensus of historians is that the Holocaust did happen, and you have to look at it from the perspective of a holocaust survivor....you have been tortured, almost killed, and almost everyone you know has been brutally massacred, and you have been oppressed for over a decade....suddenly, a world power promises you a land (not part of Germany, where they are likely to not feel at ease), and this lands happens to be the land that your people have been praying about for 1800 years....also, it is virtually impossible to destroy Israel, as well as unethical, as this would make us no better....so the only solution is a two state solution, but that state for the Palestinians in the west bank can be taken over by force, its just that the Israeli zone can not.....that is my opinion....please don't throw stones at me....

 

[Zafran]

what about the people who already lived in Palestine?

You do know Israel doesn't recognize Palestine?

Israel has settlers taking territory in the west bank. They are also moving into east Jerusalem which is meant to be the capital of Palestine according to the UN resolution. Gaza is blockaded. Right now Israel is an apartheid state with the US arming them even more.

Its a sick situation.

 

[Little_Lion]

Do you know where the British suggested the Jews settle before what we now call Israel?

Uganda.

I do not recognize Israel as a state simply because it took one people and forced them on another, already established people. I would feel the same way whether or not they were Jews, and no matter what country they took over. The way they went about it was wrong.

There were talks back in the 80's between some Jews on the East Coast who wanted to establish a Jewish state in the Midwest US; they looked at North and South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana, that area. Their plan was to buy a bunch of adjacent ranches, which can number in hundreds of square miles each, and establish a state that way. THAT I would have supported whole-heartedly because they were not displacing anyone and they would have been entering the land as the rightful owners. Evidently their plans did not come to fruition. Rather a shame, too, as I talked to some of the ones who were planning this and they seemed like a good and sincere people.

 

[talibilm]

Yes , Every Human has the Right To exist. So are Nations. but let them be in their borders before 1967 with all our whole hearted Blessings of All Muslim Nations Put together.

IF THAT HAPPENS SO , Even Muslims can make something like a ' star alliance ' with them as they are our Big Brothers by Scriptures.

Shalom , :welcome: eace:

 

[Mustafa16]

Do you know where the British suggested the Jews settle before what we now call Israel?

Uganda.

I do not recognize Israel as a state simply because it took one people and forced them on another, already established people. I would feel the same way whether or not they were Jews, and no matter what country they took over. The way they went about it was wrong.

There were talks back in the 80's between some Jews on the East Coast who wanted to establish a Jewish state in the Midwest US; they looked at North and South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana, that area. Their plan was to buy a bunch of adjacent ranches, which can number in hundreds of square miles each, and establish a state that way. THAT I would have supported whole-heartedly because they were not displacing anyone and they would have been entering the land as the rightful owners. Evidently their plans did not come to fruition. Rather a shame, too, as I talked to some of the ones who were planning this and they seemed like a good and sincere people.

I did not know about that second Zionist project, thank you for sharing that with me....Indeed, it was the better plan....now look at where we're at.......

 

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

(Peace be upon you)

I do mind Israel's brutal policies against Palestinians as I think any person would if they learned in detail the devastating results of those policies. That said, there have been Jews that have been living there for more than a hundred years now, and I do not think it would be justice to suddenly demand they be driven out or repatriated as Iran likes to do or has threatened to do with annihilation; yes, historically, the Jews had no right to make illegal settlements, but the truth is that we cannot go back in history and erase the wrongs that were done; we have to look into the present and ensure all possible and proper reparations are made to people who'd faced these injustices and see what's the way forward in the future. So, yes, I do think that we have to work towards a peaceable solution. Do I think it will happen realistically? No, because what I've been seeing is that there's an overwhelming number of politicians and leaders in Israel who are actively working to prevent any peaceable solution from being reached ever. That's not healthy; and that's not part of good faith.

Also, unfortunately, the International community largely ignores Israel's injustices against Palestine because of strong Zionist lobbying in the West. Unfortunately, what seems to have happened is that many Israeli Jews seem not to mind committing oppression or justifying oppression despite the fact that they were badly persecuted in Europe and elsewhere for more then three millennia within Christian Europe; what's the saddest about this status quo is that those who have faced persecution should be more attuned to the need to fight injustice anywhere but that seems to not be the case.

I do think there are good Jews and bad Jews just as we'd also say the same about Muslims; and I don't think we can broadbrush Jews because antisemitism is not right and Islam explicitly addresses Jews in honored terms as the "People of the Book"; the problem, however, is that Zionism is a radical policy that seeks not only the protection of the Israeli state but also the expansion of that state without consideration of how that expansion is facilitated and demonizes those that would oppose that expansion. That is a poisonous policy; just as Daesh's policy is poisonous. And we can't ignore radicalized policies or radicalized actions (which emerge from these poisonous policies) in any place or space because they justify future atrocities which is a major concern and which should also be concerning to any human being with a modicum of regard for social justice and equity and future security of an already oppressed peoples.

Therefore, to say that all is okay despite what Israel has done historically and is continuing to do up to present day on devastating terms never agreed to by Palestinian peoples would be an incredible travesty of justice; despite what the media would ignore, many times what Palestinians are doing is not terrorism but what simply anyone of us as human beings would do in defense of our own lives and those of our families and our homes despite this unfortunate level because Palestinians are not recognized as a state unanimously in the International community and remain an occupied land unacknowledged, browbeaten, and forgotten.

So, to answer your question, I'll recognize the right of Israel to exist as a state in the Middle East if it formally recognizes the state of Palestine. What I don't believe is that they should have all their cake and eat it all too.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)

 

[kritikvernunft]

So, to answer your question, I'll recognize the right of Israel to exist as a state in the Middle East if it formally recognizes the state of Palestine.

Concerning the original plan for the State of Israel, on 2 November 1917, the United Kingdom's Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour to Walter Rothschild, 2nd Baron Rothschild, wrote the following, for transmission to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland:

His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

We can see that the execution of this plan has clearly led to prejudice to the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine. We can also clearly see that it has, later on, utterly destroyed the rights and political status enjoyed by the Jews in Germany. Therefore, the conditions upon which the plan was clearly understood to be predicated, were not respected whatsoever.

Even though the Zionist Federation had been warned about any prejudice to the civil and religious rights of the Palestinians, they still managed to reject the 1948 UN General Assembly Resolution 194:

The UN General Assembly resolves that the refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or in equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible.

Since a two-state proposal is contrary to the civil and religious rights of the non-Jewish communities in the former Ottoman province and British mandate of Palestine, I can only reject it.

In my impression, there are two solutions possible.

[1] The State of Israel annexes the occupied territories and grants all non-Jewish populations on its territory equal civil and religious rights, including free settlement and movement of persons, with compensation for the refugees.
[2] The continuation of the hostilities until either party annexes the other.

Since the partition of the former Ottoman province and British mandate of Palestine has never been feasible, this problem can only be solved by annexation. Since the State of Israel refuses to annex the occupied territories, it is most likely the occupied territories who will someday annex the State of Israel.

 

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

(Peace be upon you)

In my impression, there are two solutions possible.

[1] The State of Israel annexes the occupied territories and grants all non-Jewish populations on its territory equal civil and religious rights, including free settlement and movement of persons, with compensation for the refugees.
[2] The continuation of the hostilities until either party annexes the other.

Since the partition of the former Ottoman province and British mandate of Palestine has never been feasible, this problem can only be solved by annexation. Since the State of Israel refuses to annex the occupied territories, it is most likely the occupied territories who will someday annex the State of Israel.

I agree with you because the end-time prophecies do not support Israel being nice enough to act in the interests of justice and mercy for the non-Jewish populations in the way envisioned in our discussion. Therefore, you're right about what's to happen in terms of the end-time prophecies. That said, I do want to say something, which I think is important to note in the context of our discussion.

I heard from an Islamic scholar once that Ali :ra: (may God be pleased with him) was one day entering a mosque for Fajr prayer (morning prayer) when he saw a person laying down on his face and spiritually the realization in his heart came that this person in the mosque was going to one day kill him. He knew in that moment that Allah Almighty was showing him this spiritual knowledge to see whether he would accept to submit to divine will or not. Yet Ali :ra: was perfect through this test and submitted in his heart. But that person also realized that Ali :ra: had spiritually read his intentions and fell on Ali's :ra: feet saying to him to kill him before that person would kill him in the future. Ali :ra: said to him, “How can I do that. If I kill you, I will be killed under shariah (Islamic law). I cannot tell as an excuse that because I knew that you will kill me one day that I killed you. Shariah will not accept this defense." So, Ali :ra: was submitting to divine will and treating this person with still the respect and honor due to him as a human being even with this spiritual knowledge.

So, what am I trying tell you? I'm trying to tell you that while it is true that Israel will continue its atrocities on Palestinian people and a peaceful solution will not occur from what I understand of end-time prophecies, as Muslims we cannot under shariah use the excuse that we knew this will not occur and thereby leave trying for peace. No, we must try for a peaceful solution even if we know that it won't succeed, because our divine responsibility is not the end-results but the process of striving.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)

 

[anatolian]

Countries rights to exist are not given, they are taken by their nation but Israel's situation is different. It is given actually. Palestinians pay their grand fathers' mistake. They were deceived by the British and rebelled against the Ottoman Empire and then the British gave it to Jews.

 

[noraina]

It is such a hugely complex situation. The very creation of Israel as a state of its own has such unstable foundations, it was, in essence, snatched away unfairly and illegally from the Palestinians - and our Muslim brothers and sisters there suffer such terrible persecutions and senseless violence in the land which is originally and rightfully theirs.

Of course, the larger international groups and corporations are silent about this issue because it's not in their interests to correct this instability - they have their own agendas and bringing justice to the Palestinians is not one of them. Israel has consistently and openly committed outrageous war crimes and has not to this day been brought to question about them, as Zionism is extremely influential and to even suggest the fact Israel shouldn't be recognised as a state is *gasp* a sign of neo-Nazism or anti-semitism.

There is a major difference between being anti-zionist and anti-semitist. Israel's actions aren't a reflection of Judaism- in fact this whole mess is based in politics and geography rather than religion. There are many Jewish people who have spoken out against Israel's actions (I'm friends with such an amazing girl ) and I wouldn't mind recognising Israel as a state if it recognised Palestine, recognises the injustices it has committed in fair and open trials and gives heavy reparations. If that'll ever happen one day I have no idea.

 

[aaj]

It really doesn't matter what one thinks or believes. What is is and will be will be. The fact is that it is an Apartheid state occupying a nation of people and committing war crimes against them. Islamically they would be conquered, killed, made slaves of and/or kicked out, much like all those before them. And that is exactly what will happen with the next islamic rule coming in the near future.

 

[greenhill]

Do I recognise? Have never thought enough to decide. To do so on such a subject you would need to understand why Allah promised the land to them but allowed for them to be invaded and expelled from it for thousands of years. Although I pick up a lot of info on this topic over the years, I am of the opinion that there is a bigger story to it than we are seeing. Allah's Majestic Plan.

They incurred the Wrath of Allah which some scholars(?) believe ghoyrilmaghdhoobi3layheem to refer to. Hence their punishment. Exiled! Until they admit the Truth. They know!

But they made their choice. Do they deserve sympathy? Do they have any?

Consider this. Nabi Ibrahim pbuh asked Allah to have his seeds as the line of prophets. And so it was granted. All prophets were of his bloodline as we know it now. But one family had a more illustrious history of prophets but was punctuated with the final message from the other.. (I digress).. the Ishak line were incrementally trained and spread, preparing for the time when the final message arrived, the infrastructure, the spread, the knowledge, and practiced over generations, they were so to speak, a nation of priests. (that's one long sentence)

Imagine if the world was run truly Islamic (not going into details, but just a concept) had followers of the Book followed rather than opposed, we may have a world without riba and an entirely whole different world.

Instead, we have a situation where Iblees, as he vowed to Allah, used those very qualities trained through upbringing to make the laws on earth (man made) rank higher than religion.. (eventually outlawing religious beliefs.)

They know the enemy. They have had training. They chose. Do they still deserve?

Getting long already..


eace:

 

[M.I.A.]

...lol

its like when customers belittle the competition.. who is better or worse.. and all sorts.

...I point to other end of town where the road stretches farther and every door is a shop.

there is enough room for Jew, muslim and Christian.

depending on who holds the keys to the land.

..it is a difficult concept to maintain..

because if any one had a hand over the other..


they would write themselves the superior.



it's a flawed concept.. like a rainbow.