Does the Bible need a defense?

[poga]

God has already shown me Muhammad, but not because I asked. Why would I want to ask about a person to begin with? He was a prophet but just a man. I am not a respecter of any human flesh unless of course that flesh is the WORD OF GOD INCARNATED.

every thing is word of god
but just as our echo lives without any of my physical part being in it
so doe's word of god as prerecorded continious sustenence for this creation
i think what you want to know is what is the singular reason of this creation
in many belief there is mention of one universal men
even those who worship femenine deity they too believe she was created by the first male essence
what i ask you to do is go through every candidate with unbiased judgement and categorise theirs deeds
and who ever passes all the spiritual and physical test take him as the best of the creation
we know human are best of creation so we only have look for who is the best of human being

 

[Umar001]

AL QURAN speaks of living people of caves
are there any connection with them and dead sea scroll

Akhi I do not understand what you mean,

this thread is supposed to be about the defense of the Bible, part of that is the evidence brought forth of the Dead sea scrolls.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I have been skimmin some stuff about the Dead sea scrolls, I will ask you, under what evidences were the scrolls dated at 200 BCE?

That date is just something that is filed under general knowledge in the back of my brain. I'm sure that if you've been reading about the currently you probably have better access to answering that question than do I.

If you're not finding the answer in what you are reading, I might suggest Biblical Archaeology magaize, Biblical Review, Christian History, and other similar magazines as places to find up to day articles about them.

Also as a General Reminder any new posts from Friday, meaning about 8 hours from now, which are off topic will be deleted.

Yeah!!! I've never seen a thread go so far afield from it's stated topic.

 

[Grace Seeker]

AL QURAN speaks of living people of caves
are there any connection with them and dead sea scroll

The dead sea scrolls were a collection of papyri scrolls found in clay jars in a cave near the dead sea -- hence the name. The community they were believed to have come from was a group that lived in the area, but not in caves, they just put the scrolls there. One suspects for safe keeping. It is highly unlikely that the Qur'an was referring to them, or that Muhammed or any of the rest of the Ummah was even aware of this community at the time the Qur'an was written.

 

[Redeemed]

every thing is word of god
but just as our echo lives without any of my physical part being in it
so doe's word of god as prerecorded continious sustenence for this creation
i think what you want to know is what is the singular reason of this creation
in many belief there is mention of one universal men
even those who worship femenine deity they too believe she was created by the first male essence
what i ask you to do is go through every candidate with unbiased judgement and categorise theirs deeds
and who ever passes all the spiritual and physical test take him as the best of the creation
we know human are best of creation so we only have look for who is the best of human being

I understand what you are trying to say, I think; however, this is where the Bible and the Koran clash. The Bible says that all things were made by Him and for Him (Jesus). I don't believe the Bible is as corrupt as Muslims say; however, I do understand why they say that. It is because they can't except the Bible is true and remain Muslim. I can't prove that the Bible is God's word, but I believe it by faith. All the titles that were given to Allah Jesus had claimed for himself and others (prophets and Apostles) have declared it so as well. Yes, I know that He also took the humble position too. That was because He was also a man (flesh and blood), but the spirit part of Him is God in the flesh. How do you know that it's true that God is not a begetter nor is He begotten? Do you think that it is impossible for God who created life not to be a begetter even if He wants to beget Himself in human flesh? Think about it. Ask God to show this doctrine through His eyes. Have you done that?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Of all criticisms levelled at the Bible, there is one to which I would offer not a defense, but an instructive parry. The criticism is the one of the countless different copies of the Bible that one can find today.

I understand this issue. I once worked in a Christian bookstore where we sold King James Version bibles, New International Version bibles, Revised Standard Version bibles, New American Standard Bibles, Jerusalem Bibles, Living Bibles, Philips' Bibles, and more.

There were annotated bibles, study bibles, children's bibles, giant print bibles, and reference bibles. We had bibles with Scoffield's notes, Drake's annotations, Thompson's references, Nelson's illustrations, and an unknown person's amilpifications. There are bibles with copyright dates of 1611, 1947, 1978, and 2001. There are bibles translated by Coverdale, Tyndale, Wycliffe and whole committees. There are some bibles that claim to be "Authorized", others are "Open", and some proclaim the "Good News" or will tell you "The Way".

And that is just Bibles in English. There are also Spanish, French, German, Chinese, Urdu. I have a friend who is right now in the midst of translating the bible into the native language of a tribe of only a few thousand people in the Democratic Republic of the Congo.

So, which one of these is the right Bible? Answer: none of them are, and all of them are.

None of them are the original Bible, and none of them claim to be. Each of them was translated, annotated, supplied with notes and other material such as maps or charts or explanatory commentaries, and printed with a particular audience in mind. For a child it might have lots of pictures. For a student it might have notes to answer questions, for someone with failing eyesight it is in large print, for some who speaks English it is in that language and is maybe even in Elizabethean English for those who grew up using it and in a more modern rendering for more modern English speakers. Each one of these things makes it the "right" bible for a particular person and the "wrong" Bible for someone else. Yet, of course, while they appear to be so many different Bibles they are in reality all just one Bible.

How can this be? How can many Bibles with all these different variations, really be all just one Bible? I might ask how many different translations have been made available of the Qur'an? How many different translations are there in English alone? Does that mean that there are many different Qur'ans? Of course not. And why not? Because the real Qur'an, the true one is that one which was given to Muhammad, not the book which was made from a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of that Qur'an and then translated into English and now sits on my shelf. What I possess is at best an interpretation of the Qur'an.

And so it is with all of these Bibles we speak of. They are not the real Bible, but they do convey the essence of God's message revealed to us in the Bible to those who can't read the Bible in its original form and who depend on the work of others to get it to us to read today.

My friend in the Democratic Republic of the Congo knows that the book he will put into the hands of eager readers is but an interpretation of what was originally written. He knows it very well, for he has spent 20 years of his life doing that interpretaion. He can't just go grab and English copy off of a bookstore shelf and then translate it quickly like he could do with a letter. No, he has to start with as close to the copy of the original text as can be determined. And then learning both the original languages and the new language into which it shall be placed he has to be sure to translate more than just the words on the page, but even the meaning behind them. Is the building you live in a house or a home? In one sentence the two terms mean the same thing, but in another we recognize that a house is just a building, but a home is where the heart is. Or does house mean tribal family and home mean an institution that old people are kept in when they are no longer able to care for themselves? And how do any of these concepts translate to people who live in grass huts that they tear down and rebuild in new places as needed?

And when he gets done, there will no doubt be someone who will truthfully say that they might have chosen a different word or an alternate turn of a phrase in this place or that one. And indeed they might be right if thinking about a different person in a different context than my friend was thinking of at the time he chose the word he did. The process of translating and making the bible available to people to read today will never be complete. As people and language and the meaning behind words change, the interpretation provided must change along with them or we shall loose their meaning all together.

Yes, there are thousands of choices when one goes to select a Bible to read from today. But these many different productions of the Bible are not different Bibles anymore than Mohammad Asad's The Message of the Qur'an Translated and Explained!, The Meaning of the Glorious Koran by Mohammad Marmaduke Pickthall, or translations by Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali, Ph.D. and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan or Yusuf Ali are different Qur'ans. And so, the many versions and translations and special editions do not mean that there are thousands or millions of different Bibles. Indeed there is really just one Bible, that which God revealed to his servants, that they recorded, that the early Church preserved, and has now been passed on to us by the hand of God and the hands of many different men.

 

[poga]

Of all criticisms levelled at the Bible, there is one to which I would offer not a defense, but an instructive parry. The criticism is the one of the countless different copies of the Bible that one can find today.

I understand this issue. I once worked in a Christian bookstore where we sold King James Version bibles, New International Version bibles, Revised Standard Version bibles, New American Standard Bibles, Jerusalem Bibles, Living Bibles, Philips' Bibles, and more.

There were annotated bibles, study bibles, children's bibles, giant print bibles, and reference bibles. We have bibles with Scoffield's notes, Drake's annotations, Thompson's references, Nelson's illustrations, and an unknown person's amilpifications. There are bibles with copyright dates of 1611, 1947, 1978, and 2001. There are bibles translated by Coverdale, Tyndale, Wycliffe and whole committees. There are some bibles that claim to be "Authorized", others are "Open", and some proclaim the "Good News" or will tell you "The Way".

And that is just Bibles in English. There are also Spanish, French, German, Chinese, Urdu. I have a friend who is right now in the midst of translating the bible into the native language of a tribe of only a few thousand people in the Democratice Republic of the Congo.

So, which one of these is the right Bible? Answer: none of them are, and all of them are.

None of them are the original Bible, and none of them claim to be. Each of them was translated, annotated, supplied with notes and other material such as maps or charts or explanatory commentaries, and printed with a particular audience in mind. For a child it might have lots of pictures. For a student it might have notes to answer questions, for someone with failing eyesight it is in large print, for some who speaks English it is in that language and maybe even is in Elizabethean English for those who grew up using it and a more modern rendering for more modern English speakers. Each one of these things makes it the "right" bible for a particular person and the "wrong" Bible for someone else. Yet, of course, while they appear to be so many different Bibles they are in reality all just one Bible.

How can this be? How can many Bibles with all these different variations, really be all just one Bible? I might ask how many different translations have been made available of the Qur'an? How many different translations are there in English alone? Does that mean that there are many different Qur'ans? Of course not. And why not? Because the real Qur'an, the true one is that one which was given to Muhammad, not the book which which was made from a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of that Qur'an and then translated into English and now sits on my shelf. What I possess is at best an interpretation of the Qur'an.

And so it is with all of these Bibles we speak of. They are not the real Bible, but they do convey the essence of God's message revealed to us in the Bible to those who can't read the Bible in its original form and who depend on the work of others to get it to us to read today.

My friend in the Democratic Republic of the Congo knows that the book he will put into the hands of eager readers is but an interpretation of what was originally written. He knows it very well, for he has spent 20 year of his life doing that interpretaion. He can't just go grab and English copy of a bookstore shelf and then translate it quickly like he could do with a letter. No, he has to start with as close to the copy of the original text as can be determined. And then learning both the original languages and the new language into which it shall be placed he has to be sure to translate more than just the words on the page, but even the meaning behind them. Is the building you live in a house or a home. In one sentence they mean the same thing, but in another we recognize that a house is just a building, but a home is where the heart is. Or does house mean tribal family and home mean an institution that old people are kept in when they are no longer able to care for themselves? And how do any of these concepts translate to people who live in grass huts that they tear down and rebuild in new places as needed?

And when he gets done, there will no doubt be someone who will truthfully say that they might have chosen a different word or turn of a phrase in this place or that. And indeed they might be right if thinking about a different person in a different context than my friend was thinking of at the time he chose the one he did. The process of translating and making the bible available to people to read today will never be complete. As people and language and the meaning behind words change, the interpretation provided must change along with them or we shall loose there meaning all together.

Yes, there are thousands of choices when one goes to select a Bible to read from today. But these many different productions of the Bible are not different Bibles anymore than Mohammad Asad's The Message of the Qur'an Translated and Explained!, The Meaning of the Glorious Koran by Mohammad Marmaduke Pickthall, or translations by Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali, Ph.D. and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan or Yusuf Ali are different Qur'ans. And so, the many versions and translations and special editions do not mean that there are thousands or millions of different Bibles. Indeed there is really just one Bible, that which God revealed to his servants, that they recorded, that the early Church preserved, and has now been passed on to us by the hand of many different men.

bible quran thora puran all are book of belief they all need defense against unbeliever
they all claim book of god yet only AL QURAN have god as defender
rest needs alapiana or........