Draygombs paradox.

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Jon Paul

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Hello, everyone!

I feel this is important. Through the past couple of years I have increasingly met people who would deny the existance of God using the Draygombs paradox.

It follows as such:

Draygombs paradox

Without Time God didn't have enough Time to decide to create Time.

God is defined as The Conscious First Cause -
The First Cause is That which caused Time.
Consciousness is that which lets one make a decision.
A Decision is the action of changing ones mind from undecided to decided.
Time is the measure of change.

Premises:

Something which is caused can't be required by that which causes it.

Conclusions:

Time is required for Change.
A Decision is a Change.
Decisions require Time.
Consciousness can't let one make a decision without Time.
Consciousness requires Time.
God is Conscious.
God requires Time.
God can't be the cause of Time if God requires Time.
God isn't the cause of Time.
God isn't The First Cause.
If God isn't The Conscious First Cause then God doesn't exist.
God doesn't exist.
Click to expand...

It is important for us to be able to defend God and His existance in the face of the modern world and their denials and this seems to be a plopular method.

Can you see the error?

They make a key fallacious claim... their first premise that "Time is required for Change". Everything falls with it. If time is required for change, then time does not exist. Since time is finite and temporal and was actually caused by a change. Time is finite meaning that it had a beginning. There was no time before times beginning and then there was time at times beginning. This is a fact and it excplicitly contradicts the idea that "Time is required for Change".

If they argue against the finitey of time and claim it to be infinite, then they argue that the universe doesn't exist since if time is not finite, it would take infinity to reach this moment and since we can never reach infinity+1, this moment would never be reached.

It is quite simple, but many innocent people fall for this. Hopefully this prepares you in case you meet one such ignorant and you have a chance to educate them.

Regards,
JP.
 
Nice post. Time is itself a change from when it didn't exist so how could we say that time is required for every change?

Did I get that right? It was the first thing that popped into my head. :p
 
Time itself has no ontology, and is so fluid and relative, as to render such arguments shaky to say the least.
 
Muezzin said:
Time itself has no ontology, and is so fluid and relative, as to render such arguments shaky to say the least.
Click to expand...

Bro, I'm not sure what you mean exactly. Are you saying that time is simply a concept and not an entity?
 
AntiKarateKid said:
Bro, I'm not sure what you mean exactly. Are you saying that time is simply a concept and not an entity?
Click to expand...
Yes. It's simply a means to understand the universe in which we live.

But I'm probably completely incorrect.
 
The very definitions of God here are faulty.. he starts off well enough, then sets a chain of definitions from previous each one more constrictive than the first.. God is completely outside our physical laws and universe.. he is the creator of said laws, and we can't use them to better understand his being...

Allah (swt ), says:
" And they say: "There is nothing but our life in this world: We die and we live and nothing destroys us except time." And they have no knowledge of it, they only conjecture" (Qur'an 45:24)
​
Allah (swt ), Most Glorified, Most High, informs us in this verse about the disbelieving dahris1 from among the Arabs and others, who do not believe in any life, save the life of this world, nor in the Rabb and Creator, Allah (swt ), Most High. They believe that nothing causes death except the passage of time. Then Allah (swt ), Most Glorified, Most High, refutes their claims, saying that they have absolutely no evidence for what they claim, but instead, depend upon surmise and their own vain opinions.
Benefits Derived From This Verse
1. That attributing good or evil to the passage of time is a sign of atheism.
2. Confirmation of a life after death for mankind.
3. That ad-dahr (time) is not one of Allah's Names.
​
Relevance of This Verse to the Subject of the Chapter
That the verse rejects those who attribute events to time, for they commit a great wrong against Allah (swt ).
Relevance of This Verse to the Subject of Tawheed
That it rejects those who attribute events to time, because in so doing, they are ascribing a partner to Allah (swt ), for it is He, Alone Who decrees what will be and what will not be.
..ooOOoo..​
It is authentically reported on the authority of Abu Hurairah (ra ) that the Prophet (saas ) said: "Allah (swt ), Most Blessed, Most High, says: "The son of Adam wrongs Me: He curses time, though I am time: In My Hands are all things and I cause the night to follow the day." 2 In another narration, He (saas ) says: "Do not curse time, for verily, time is Allah (swt )."
Allah (swt ), Most Glorified, Most High informs us in this Hadith Qudsi, that man commits a great wrong against Allah (swt ) when he curses time and attributes the occurrence of events to it, for Allah (swt ) is the Rabb of time and the Disposer of affairs and it is by His Qadr that events take place. Therefore to curse time is to curse the Owner of time.
In the second narration, the Prophet (saas ) forbids us from cursing time, saying that Allah (swt ) is the Owner of time and the Disposer of it and all events and affairs, and this is confirmation of what was reported in the preceding Hadith Qudsi.
Benefits Derived From This Hadith
1. The forbiddance of cursing time.
2. That no actions may be attributed to time.
​
Relevance of This Hadith to the Subject of the Chapter
That it proves that to curse time is to commit a great wrong against Allah (swt ).
Relevance of This Hadith to the Subject of Tawheed
That the Hadithproves that cursing time is a great wrong against Allah (swt ), because those who do so believe that it is time which causes events to take place and this is shirk in Tawheed Ar-Ruboobiyyah, for it is Allah (swt ), Alone Who determines events.
Footnotes
1. Dahris: An atheistic sect among the Arabs, their views are widely held in the West today: There is no God, no Resurrection, no punishment, no reward etc., etc.

2. Narrated by Bukhari.
 
Hello, Gossamer skye!

Of course, God is wholly transcendent to time and is not subject to linear timeline. It is not subject to any timeline because it's simply not time. You are right, of course.

But now you take away my fun at playing intellectual :p!

Regards,
JP.
 
Hi, this philosophical approach is the result of the intuitive belief of many; that time is an abstract concept; a measurement of change.
From the more scientific p.o.v. where time is a physical container, the paradox disappears.
 
Abdul Fattah said:
Hi, this philosophical approach is the result of the intuitive belief of many; that time is an abstract concept; a measurement of change.
From the more scientific p.o.v. where time is a physical container, the paradox disappears.
Click to expand...

I don't get it bro. Could you explain it more?
 
We are forbidden to ponder on the essence of Allah [swt] because it is beyond our capacity. The nature of the relation of Allah [swt] and His Eternal presence to that of time I think gets dangerously close to pondering His [swt] essence.

We could resolve this whole issue by sticking to the Qu'ran and Sunnah when it comes to pondering Allah's [swt] creation. How studying Islam and discerning truth about religion is supposed to work as put forth by our Prophet [saas] and his pious predecessors is as follows:

1. Empty your heart of arrogance in all it's forms [this is the fatwa of Imam Junayb who said before you learn about God you must first remove arrogance from your heart].

2. Study the claims of the religion, and what makes sense, accept it, and what doesn't make sense, ask the people of knowledge, such as Imams and scholars.

3. If they are unable to resolve the issue, then re-examine the religion. The vast majority of the religion, it's laws, proofs of it's Divine origin, and so on should be based on evidence, proof, and reason.

4. If you find that the vast majority of the religion is reasonable as mentioned above, but there are still issues which we cannot resolve, particularly involving the essence of God or His nature, then this should not be a cause of doubt, as some things are beyond our capacity. Being able to accept that is part of no. 1 on this list. :-)
 

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