Ezekiel's failed Prophecy Against Egypt

[ManchesterFolk]

Back_to_faith, if you’re very interested in discovery of the truth, then you will be open to the information I will supply you with. If not, then oh well.

Please present your problems with assumptions that the author has made, and before you do.

I also, warn you to think about Egyptian history. The Egyptians rarely presented in their records when they had a downfall. Just like how many kingdoms at this time only recorded their victories, and great triumphs:

The Displaced Dynasties series by Jim Reilly is intriguing.

For more information, you should read these books (all four can be skimmed since they are provided):

http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasties/

In 564 B.C. Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon invaded Egypt, demolished every temple in the country, slaughtered most of the population & exiled all but a remnant of those who survived. For twenty years Egypt was left without a resident pharaoh. Temple worship ceased. For another twenty years, following the arrival of the Persians under Cyrus the Great, sporadic restoration activity was underway throughout the country. This rebuilding continued under Cambyses, following his 525 B.C. expedition to Egypt, and into the reign of Darius I.

There is but a single problem with this history. According to Egyptologists it never happened. The denial is based on an Egyptian history which places Manetho’s 26th dynasty in the time frame 664-525 B.C., leaving no room either for a twenty year interregnum or for a twenty year rule by the Persians prior to 525 B.C. Amasis, the penultimate Saite dynasty king, ruled throughout the critical forty year period (570-526 B.C.)

But historians are wrong. The fault lies in the Egyptian chronology on which the traditional history is based. That chronology, throughout the relevant period, is in error by 121 years! Saite dynasty dates need to be lowered by that amount, moving the dynasty to a position overlapping the first Persian domination of Egypt.

Here are links to each chapter:

http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasties/NebuchadnezzarChapter1.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasties/NebuchadrezzarChapter2.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasties/NebuchadnezzarChapter3.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasties/NebuchadnezzarChapter4.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasties/NebuchadnezzarChapter4.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasties/NebuchadnezzarChapter5.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasties/Book1MasterDocumentEndnoteVersion10POINTBackupFromRICHTEXT.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasties/NebuchadnezzarChapter7.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasties/NebuchadnezzarChapter8.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasties/NebuchadnezzarChapter9.htm
http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasties/NebuchadnezzarChapter11.htm

The other books can be viewed as well from the same site with the link I first provided above.

 

[back_to_faith]

Back_to_faith, if you’re very interested in discovery of the truth, then you will be open to the information I will supply you with. If not, then oh well.

Please present your problems with assumptions that the author has made, and before you do.

I also, warn you to think about Egyptian history. The Egyptians rarely presented in their records when they had a downfall. Just like how many kingdoms at this time only recorded their victories, and great triumphs:

The Displaced Dynasties series by Jim Reilly is intriguing.

For more information, you should read these books (all four can be skimmed since they are provided):

http://www.kent.net/DisplacedDynasties/

In 564 B.C. Nebuchadrezzar of Babylon invaded Egypt, demolished every temple in the country, slaughtered most of the population & exiled all but a remnant of those who survived. For twenty years Egypt was left without a resident pharaoh. Temple worship ceased. For another twenty years, following the arrival of the Persians under Cyrus the Great, sporadic restoration activity was underway throughout the country. This rebuilding continued under Cambyses, following his 525 B.C. expedition to Egypt, and into the reign of Darius I.

There is but a single problem with this history. According to Egyptologists it never happened. The denial is based on an Egyptian history which places Manetho’s 26th dynasty in the time frame 664-525 B.C., leaving no room either for a twenty year interregnum or for a twenty year rule by the Persians prior to 525 B.C. Amasis, the penultimate Saite dynasty king, ruled throughout the critical forty year period (570-526 B.C.)

But historians are wrong. The fault lies in the Egyptian chronology on which the traditional history is based. That chronology, throughout the relevant period, is in error by 121 years! Saite dynasty dates need to be lowered by that amount, moving the dynasty to a position overlapping the first Persian domination of Egypt.

.[/FONT]

My friend, you obviously missed the problem under discussion:

Anyone wish to defend Ezekiel's Prophecy Against Egypt has to prove that it has been fulfilled in all of its details ,anyone claims that it has been fulfilled partially or yet to be fulfilled in the future ,is advised to save his time and ours and save his posts to another forum............

You hero who all of a sudden tried to cahllenge the whole academic work of Egyptologists ,and the serioud problem of that Egyptian history places Manetho’s 26th dynasty in the time frame 664-525 B.C., leaving no room either for a twenty year interregnum or for a twenty year rule by the Persians prior to 525 B.C. Amasis, the penultimate Saite dynasty king, ruled throughout the critical forty year period (570-526 B.C.)

claims the following:

The Egyptian Holocaust


In 564 B.C. a foreign army invaded Egypt, laying waste the country. Tens of thousands died. Thousands more, primarily the skilled and educated elite, priests and artisans alike, were taken captive and deported. A minority escaped into the surrounding desert, among them the ruling pharaoh. Only a small remnant survived.
The physical structures of the country were also decimated. Temples and tombs were destroyed and looted. Cities were burned. From Migdol in the eastern Delta to Syene near Elephantine south of Thebes, 500 miles upriver on the Nile, the country was ravaged.

It was, quite literally, a holocaust.

Twenty years passed as the land languished, raped of its treasure by garrisons left behind by the foreigners. No pharaoh ruled to restore order. Another twenty years saw limited rebuilding and the gradual renewal of religious and political life. Temples were repaired. Training began for a new generation of priests and artisans.

The few traumatized survivors of the exile, now old, had only a vague recollection of the days when the priests were taken away and the population vanished. They told tales about the nšn, “the devastation”.



Does that fulfill Ezekiel?

" 'Because you said, "The Nile is mine; I made it," 10 therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush. 11 No foot of man or animal will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years.

My friend,

If such Holocaust ever happened,is still so far away from fulfilling Ezekiel's Prophecy

1-According to the prophecy,No foot of man or animal will pass through Egypt
,Egypt had to be a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan.
any survivors from the Holocaust ,come through the door,the fulfillment goes through the window.
(A minority escaped into the surrounding desert, among them the ruling pharaoh. Only a small remnant survived).

Alas, You have been victimized by the obvious exaggeration of Ezekiel,claiming that A country with rich soil as Egypt would be desolate for 40 years ,and No foot of man or animal will pass through it....

History teaches us that after any military attack whatever destructive it is,there must be some who survive and escape it and never surrender themselves to the aggressive power..........


The writer shot himself and his inspired writer in the foot,when he claimed that there were survivors of the exile whoes feet passed through Egypt.

 

[ManchesterFolk]

You hero who all of a sudden tried to cahllenge the whole academic work of Egyptologists ,and the serioud problem of that Egyptian history places Manetho’s 26th dynasty in the time frame 664-525 B.C., leaving no room either for a twenty year interregnum or for a twenty year rule by the Persians prior to 525 B.C. Amasis, the penultimate Saite dynasty king, ruled throughout the critical forty year period (570-526 B.C.)

My "hero" :blind: Did nothing except produce a work which he cites very thoroughly, and shows his opinions. As for the academic world of Egyptian history, they cannot even date when the Exodus happend and some deny it did. The Quran to the best of my knowledge says it occured. Let me ask you something better. In 2000 years, if someone finds a tape and it is USA propaganda that shows the USA going into Iraq everyone happy and the Iraq war as a sucess, we know that is not the case, but many experts would consider it history. The academic world is not perfect at all. Dating everything is a very tough buissness.

" 'Because you said, "The Nile is mine; I made it," 10 therefore I am against you and against your streams, and I will make the land of Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush. 11 No foot of man or animal will pass through it; no one will live there for forty years.

Interesting. I see you have taken the liberty to decide exactly how the Bible interpreted. I assume you believe that the Pharoh was literally a great dragon.

"Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers" (Ezekiel 29:3)

The Bible also doesn't really believe that the nations of the earth with come from "four corners" either, but it uses a device in Hebrew to refer to coming from all sides. Sucha device is obviously used here as well to describe carnage. To take every word completly literally is a huge mistake, because then the Bible is seen to describe things like the actual "Hand of God" sweeping evil, and many other things that we know did not actually happen. Verse 11 could very well refer to a symbolic way to describe a land completely destroyed.

A minority escaped into the surrounding desert, among them the ruling pharaoh. Only a small remnant survived.

Since you believe we have to take this compeltly literally, the small minority which survived among the ruling pharoh escaped into a sorounding desert.

Ezekiel says: "Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush"

So what exactly is wrong with survivors escaping to the "sorounding deserts"?

such Holocaust ever happened,is still so far away from fulfilling Ezekiel's Prophecy

1-According to the prophecy,No foot of man or animal will pass through Egypt
,Egypt had to be a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan.
any survivors from the Holocaust ,come through the door,the fulfillment goes through the window.
(A minority escaped into the surrounding desert, among them the ruling pharaoh. Only a small remnant survived).

How, so? By your literal interpretation of every man and animal, does not say that every person will die. It says that everyone who remains in Egypt will die, and no men will pass through. Since many were to be exiled and then brought back later, the passage does not infer everyone will die.

Alas, You have been victimized by the obvious exaggeration of Ezekiel,claiming that A country with rich soil as Egypt would be desolate for 40 years ,and No foot of man or animal will pass through it....

The same "History" according to many also teaches us that no such thing as the flood ever occured, and let me ask does the Quran mention the flood at all?

 

[ManchesterFolk]

I would also like to point out this:

 

[ManchesterFolk]

sorry for the double post above it was incomplete when i accidently posted it.

Egyptian dating although many try to form a consensus has never met one because if the facts were so straight foward they would have.

The creation of a reliable Chronology of Ancient Egypt is a task fraught with problems. While the overwhelming majority of Egyptologists agree on the outline and many of the details of a common chronology, disagreements either individually or in groups have resulted in a variety of dates offered for rulers and events.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_chronology

This conventional chronology of the rulers of ancient Egypt, taking into account well accepted developments during the 20th century but not including any of the major revision proposals that have also been made in that time. Even within a single work, often archeologists will offer several possible dates or even several whole chronologies as possibilities. Consequently, there may be discrepancies between dates shown here and in articles on particular rulers. Often there are also several possible spellings of the names. All dates are in the chronology are BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventional_Egyptian_chronology

The reader is advised to include this factor of uncertainty with any date offered either in Wikipedia or any history of Ancient Egypt.

This warning is there because the uncertainty.

The first problem the student of Egyptian chronology faces is that they used no single system of dating: they had no concept of an Era similar to Anno Domini, Anno Hajirae — or even the concept of named years like limmu used in Mesopotamia. As a result, the chronologer is forced to compile a list of pharaohs, determine the length of their reigns, and adjust for any interregnums or coregencies. This leads to other problems:

All king lists are either comprehensive but have significant gaps in their text (for example, the Turin King List), or textually complete but fail to provide a complete list of rulers, even for a short period of Egyptian history.
There is conflicting information on the same regnal period from different versions of the same text; the Egyptian historian Manetho's history of Egypt is only known by extensive references to it made by subsequent writers, such as Eusebius and Sextus Julius Africanus. Unfortunately the dates for the same pharaoh often vary substantially depending on the referring source.
For almost all kings of Egypt, we lack an accurate count for the length of their reigns.

 

[back_to_faith]

Interesting. I see you have taken the liberty to decide exactly how the Bible interpreted. I assume you believe that the Pharoh was literally a great dragon.

"Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers" (Ezekiel 29:3)

Verse 11 could very well refer to a symbolic way to describe a land completely destroyed.


Since you believe we have to take this compeltly literally, the small minority which survived among the ruling pharoh escaped into a sorounding desert.


Ezekiel says: "Egypt a ruin and a desolate waste from Migdol to Aswan, as far as the border of Cush"

So what exactly is wrong with survivors escaping to the "sorounding deserts"?

If it is claimed that there were minority who escaped to the "sorounding deserts",and such deserts ,is included in the land of Egypt(from Migdol to Aswan) then the claim:
The land would be an "utter waste and a desolation" from Migdol (in the north) to the border of Ethiopia (in the south),to the extent that "neither foot of man nor foot of beast would pass through it, and it would be uninhabited for 40 years and the Egyptians scattered among the nations

You claim:
How, so? By your literal interpretation of every man and animal, does not say that every person will die. It says that everyone who remains in Egypt will die, and no men will pass through. Since many were to be exiled and then brought back later, the passage does not infer everyone will die.

You see How your absured argument ,led you to contradict yourself?

the passage does not infer everyone will die,It infer that some will be killed and the whole rest will be captives,leaving Egypt as"utter waste and a desolation" from Migdol (in the north) to the border of Ethiopia (in the south),and it would be uninhabited(in every inch ,including the deserts and the oasis too) for 40 years,and no men will pass through it(whether those who escaped to the desert as he claim ,or any other foriegner)...

you complain of the lack of accurate history to prove the fulfillment of the prophecy.......in other words the prophecy can't be proven historically ....and that is our topic ..one could search historical documents till day of judgment and never find a fulfillment to Ezekiel's prophecy against Egypt ........................

the point whether does it matter for the bible believer to accept the validity of the Bible without the the proofs of the historical fulfillment of Ezekiel,is off topic...and you can make another thread to argue this matter if you like.
the space in this thread is supposed only to post
HISTORICAL FULFILLMENT TO THE EZEKIEL' PROPHECY AGAINST EGYPT

 

[back_to_faith]

Here a golden chance for you to prove Ezekiel ,without making so much effort in historical readings....

Where is the proofs that Egypt considered to be the lowest of kingdoms from the time of the prophecy till now?

Ezekiel 29:14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom. 15 It will be the lowliest of kingdoms

 

[ManchesterFolk]

If it is claimed that there were minority who escaped to the "sorounding deserts",and such deserts ,is included in the land of Egypt(from Migdol to Aswan) then the claim:
The land would be an "utter waste and a desolation" from Migdol (in the north) to the border of Ethiopia (in the south),to the extent that "neither foot of man nor foot of beast would pass through it, and it would be uninhabited for 40 years and the Egyptians scattered among the nations

Yes. The sorounding deserts would be outside the area of destruction obviously since they survived! Since we are taking the whole passage so literally. Of course, if we take everything Ezekiel says to be compeltely literal, in the english sense of the language, when hebrew and english are so different, Pharoh was obviously not a human but a "great dragon" as the passage describes him!

Ezekiel writes: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries.

Therefore, since these people who escaped to the sorounding deserts left the area of destruction, they were in different countries.

You see How your absured argument ,led you to contradict yourself?

the passage does not infer everyone will die,It infer that some will be killed and the whole rest will be captives,leaving Egypt as"utter waste and a desolation" from Migdol (in the north) to the border of Ethiopia (in the south),and it would be uninhabited(in every inch ,including the deserts and the oasis too) for 40 years,and no men will pass through it(whether those who escaped to the desert as he claim ,or any other foriegner)...

No the passage says that the Egyptians will be scattered outside of their country, and leaving Egypt to the sorounding deserts which is leaving the area of destruction is considered exile.

Let us say the area of destruction is my backyard, and I leave to the sorounding backyards. I am out of the area then... The people who you are refering to left Egypt for the sorounding deserts.

the point whether does it matter for the bible believer to accept the validity of the Bible without the the proofs of the historical fulfillment of Ezekiel,is off topic...and you can make another thread to argue this matter if you like.

You need proofs for everything, yet Egyptian history and dating is such a mess by the way they recorded it, and it is so biased and slanted towards their own propaganda that there is no proof that it did not occur! There is no possible way to know for sure. To say we have set records and there is an overall consensus of what happend in Egyptian for thousands of years is just not a fact.

Here a golden chance for you to prove Ezekiel ,without making so much effort in historical readings....

Where is the proofs that Egypt considered to be the lowest of kingdoms from the time of the prophecy till now?

Ezekiel 29:14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom. 15 It will be the lowliest of kingdoms

The passsage says:

"It shall be the lowest of the kingdoms and shall no longer exalt itself above the nations, for I will diminish their numbers so that they shall not domineer over the nations." (29:15)


Commentators explain that the "lowliest of nations" and "So that they shall not domineer over the nations means" in Hebrew is an expression of ruling like in Genesis 1:28 "and have dominion over the fish of the sea" So we can conclude that the overall connotation of this passage (29:15) is that never again will Egypt have the amount of control and influence it has exerted over the region. Look around a bit. Is Egypt dominating half the world like it once was? Not at all. Egypt has not ruled over the nations since the time of the prophet Ezekiel. Egypt has been ruled by the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, Constantinople, the Saracen Arabs, the Mamelukes, the Turks, the French, and the English. In recent years, Egypt has not had princes. Compared to the power they did have when Ezekiel made his prophecy, to now, in the situation and the amount of power they do have, Ezekiels prophecy was fufilled in this verse. Look around the actual english text and seek out the truth of what the Hebrew stands for, of course you can always believe that Pharoh was literally a sea dragon like Ezekiel states in verse 3, just keep it on the down low.

 

[back_to_faith]

No the passage says that the Egyptians will be scattered outside of their country, and leaving Egypt to the sorounding deserts which is leaving the area of destruction is considered exile.



Really?!!

1-Your absured try to argue that the Egyptian desert which is about 94% of the total of Egypt,considered not to be a part of the land of Egypt ,is exposed by the accurate description of Ezekiel ....from Migdol (in the north) to the border of Ethiopia (in the south) !!!!


2-What on earth,made those who esacped to the surrounding desert ,in a military tactic ,made them wait 40 years in the surrounding desert and never came back to where they came from,or any other place? Is it the fear of the Persians? If so then the prophecy still unfulfilled ...cause still some persians who passed with their legs through Egypt !!!

3-If you claim that the surrounding desert around the ancient cities of Egypt not to be part of Egypt,so the burden is on you shoulder to prove that the eastern or the western Egyptian deserts have been called(other nations) according to Ezekiel,and to name just one of such nations !!!




The passsage says:

"It shall be the lowest of the kingdoms and shall no longer exalt itself above the nations, for I will diminish their numbers so that they shall not domineer over the nations." (29:15)



Is (not to domain over the nations) = to (be the "lowest of nations" forever)?

If the part of the world which was once (The roman empire) no longer domain its surrounding nations,that means it is considered to be the lowest of Kingdoms?

the commentators formulate comments,and you swallow them completely!!

Ezekiel ,and in his non-inspired language,forgot the fact that there is not one kingdom on earth to be considered (The lowest)
what was High long ago,is low nowadays and what is High nowadays will be low(not the lowest) in the future.

What is funny ,Is that Yhwh promised to make Egypt (lowest of Kingdoms),during the time of Ezekiel,but Egypt turned him the favor and opened its arms for him in his childhood......Are you amazed? let me show you how Egypt turned the favor for your god:

Your god (yhwh) when he was still a boy under 2 ,and before He knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right Isaiah (7:16),He fled with his mother to Egypt as a refugee in fear of being slaughtered by Herod

You see How the kingdom which he has made to be the lowest saved his skin,and was the shelter for him in his childhoom !!!!

You and those alike have been victimized by the sunday preaching,which twisted your thoughts,and planted deeply the blind faith in your hearts.

 

[ManchesterFolk]

back to faith, my friend Jamal who I invited onto this forum for some reason was merged with my account because I helped him sign up on my PC. Therefore, until then, I guess we will have to share an account until we can get it sorted out. He isn't even here right now, so I won't post anything under his name until he gets here.

 

[back_to_faith]

back to faith, my friend Jamal who I invited onto this forum for some reason was merged with my account because I helped him sign up on my PC. Therefore, until then, I guess we will have to share an account until we can get it sorted out. He isn't even here right now, so I won't post anything under his name until he gets here.

Ok Manchester

 

[back_to_faith]

By the way ,I started another thread and was approved

The false prophecy of Peter's denial of Jesus


If he wish to debate me there too,he is welcomed and you too..

take care

 

[ManchesterFolk]

They are saying that they have reason to suspect I am "one person" because he uses my computer sometimes. (Jamal would never would have even found the site if not for me) yet I am even offering to show a picture of me and my friend to them although I would actually be kind of nervous show a pic of me on the internet to people I dont know but whatever. I'm leaving the forum, so I hope you have a great time and meaningful discussions.

 

[back_to_faith]

They are saying that they have reason to suspect I am "one person" because he uses my computer sometimes. (Jamal would never would have even found the site if not for me) yet I am even offering to show a picture of me and my friend to them although I would actually be kind of nervous show a pic of me on the internet to people I dont know but whatever. I'm leaving the forum, so I hope you have a great time and meaningful discussions.

Are you kidding Manchester?!!!

Who cares ,If that it was you Jamal or anyone else.....

Stay with us....and post with any name you like anytime you like...
and let the personal talking apart
If you insist to leave,then hope you a great time and meaningful discussions too.

peace