Following a religion without believing in God

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You should be an anthropologist if you value cultures just because they are there. If Native Americans who make "dream catchers" as a part of a cultural tradition converted to Islam and stopped making them, I consider that as an advancement. They learned that making a prayer to Allah to protect them from nightmares is immeasurably better than making a gadget out of feathers and sinew.

EVERY Muslim has a duty to spread Islam and to be an example to others. There is no compulsion in religion though, so missionaries must be mindful of Islam's own warnings against shoving the religion into people's faces. That being said I will always, when appropriate, bring the matter of a person's religion/lack of it up and explain Islam to them if they are willing to listen.

First highlight: You may, but some in their culture and some outside their culture may not like the transitioning. It's like a value in preservation, really. A fear of replacement? Kind of like all these latinate words being introduced to English and rearing it away from its Germanic roots. :D Something over which I will constantly be agonized.

I agree with you in the last paragraph, and the spread of Islam and other religions is great, but it's how it's done that bothers me. For instance, when my teacher went on a missionary to Japan (she's Japanese), they would not let the Japanese people speak in Japanese in meetings, but only English. She said that there's a definite language superiority complex with Americans (who are the only ones I can make reference to), and that's not a difficult thing to believe. :X They were just being ignorant- and that stuff is what I'm scared of. (She's Christian, by the way.)

As long as the religion doesn't seek to 'prove them wrong' or 'rid of their false idolatries', I'm fine with it because it's just adding more diversity and tolerance in the world. :thumbs_up:thumbs_up

And thanks a lot, Trumble!

[Edit: This is quite off-topic. I should try to keep it on. :exhausted]
 
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is the bible still in jesus's native aramaic language?

Several people have tried to respond to this, most of it has been pretty right on too. But there have been a few minor points that I might disagree with. Rather than responding to each individually, I'll try to tackle the whole of it in this one post.

Short answer: The Bible was not written in Jesus' native Aramaic in the first place.



Long answer:
You are correct that Jesus' native language would have been Aramaic, but there is little evidence to suggest that any of the Bible was written in Jesus' native tongue.


The first books of the Bible were written (according to tradition) by Moses in Hebrew. Collectively they go by various names: The Pentatuech, the Torah, the Books of the Law, or the Books of Moses. (Of course, someone else had to pen the closing scene of Moses death and added that to complete Moses' story.) Individually they are known as Genesis, Exoduc, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

Over time the remaining books of the Hebrew Bible (you may know it by the name Tanakh) or what Christians call the Old Testament were written. Nearly all of these books were also written in Hebrew. I say nearly, because there are traces of Babylonian Aramaic creeping into the text of parts of the book of Daniel, but this is only just a few chapters in which this is found; othewise the entire Tanakh is in Hebrew.

Sometime, during the Babylonian Captivity, the name for the period between 605 and 539 BCE, during which many of the elite citizenry of the nation of Judah was kept as POWs in Babylon (modern Bagdhad), the daily Hebrew language used by most Jews was sufficiently modified to emerge as a new language, Aramaic, that would become well enough established, that by the time of Jesus it was Aramaic, and not Hebrew, which was the common language spoken by most Jews in Palestine. However, the Tanakh was still read in Hebrew, and Hebrew was used and studied for religious purposes. Given that Jesus was literate, remember most people were not, it is certain that Jesus not only spoke Aramaic, but also Hebrew.

It is even likely that Jesus also spoke Greek in addition to both his native Aramaic and his educationin Hebrew. This is because, while Aramaic was the common language of most Jews, Greek was the lingua franca of the world that had been under the rule of Alxendar the Great, which Palestine had been. Strange as it might sound, Greek was the unifying language of the Roman Empire; even in Rome, the common people spoke Greek. Greek was used on a daily basis for commerce and industry. Because of the development of a global commerce, it was common for any written document that was to be used by the common people to be written in Greek -- they have even found routine items equivlent to a grocery list from excavations of 1st century sites in Israel that were written in Greek. For this reason, when the first letters that would eventually become the New Testament were written, since they were written to churches in the Greek speaking world (mostly in Asia minor and Greece), they were written in Greek. Later, when the Gospels were written, these too were written to be read by the whole world and thus were also written in Greek. (The one possible exception to this is that some think that before Matthew was written, that there might have been a proto-Matthew that was written in Hebrew. The reason for this is that the content of the book of Matthew shows strong indications that his intended audience was either Jewish Christians and there are anacronisms of a few Aramaic words that made it into the Greek text untranslated.)

However, it must be noted that we do not have the original autographs of any biblical book. The best we have are copies of copies. Some of these are quite ancient. Some are so old that all we have a fragments, for instance the old piece of the New Testament is a small postage-sized piece of the Gospel of John, dated to about 100 AD (probably less than 10-20 after it was written), and that is in Greek. In fact, all of the oldest pieces we have of the New Testament (be they small fragments or entire books) are universally in Greek. It isn't until the 300s that we find copies of the New Testament in any langauge other than Greek. Among hte first copies in other languages, copies that begin to appear in the 4th and 5th century), are copies in Latin, Coptic, and Syriac -- Syriac being what Aramaic had evolved into by the 4th century, in fact you will still hear many people refer to a Syriac edition of the Bible as being written in Aramaic they are so closely related. (Note: ancient Syriac and modern Syrian are NOT the same language, even though they too are related.)

Until 1945, and the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls the oldest copies of any Old Testament book were Hebrew copies dated to about 800 CE. But in the collection of books known as the Dead Sea Scrolls, were found some (not all) books of the Old Testament that date to about 200 BCE, more than 1000 years earlier than the previous earliest copies of Hebrew literature. They allowed for comparison in between the two sets of books. While not identical, the reported differences were so small (something akin to missing or adding a comma here and there) as to not change the reading of the texts. Some cite this as evidence of the integrity of the copying process, though I believe it must credited only to the copying done of the Old Testament by Jewish scribes. The copying of the New Testament shows many scribal glosses, most accidental errors, one or two with obvious intent. Fortunately the large number of copies of the New Testament (more than any other book of it's antiquity) allows for comparison between the various copies, giving scholars the ability to even recognize lines of copies and where mistakes were made, and thereby work their way backward to the most likely text from which the copies were originally made.

Just as in time the books of the New Testament were translated into other languages, so too were the books of the Hebrew Bible (or the Old Testament). Tradition says that this happened around 200 BCE when the Jews produced a Greek edition of their scriptures. This Greek translation was known by the name The Septuagint (or LXX), and was written in the same type of Greek (Koine Greek) that the Christian New Testament would later come to be written in. For this reason, many non-Hebrew speaking Christians preferred to use the LXX rather than the Tanakh when referring to the Jewish scriptures. If you take a look at quotes of the Old Testament found in the New Testament and then compare them with the original verse in the Old Testament passage from which it was taken, you will see some changes, sometimes signficant changes. This is because when translating the Bible today, translators primarily use the Hebrew copies of texts of the Old Testament to translate it into English, but the earliest Christians were used to using the Greek translation for their own writings and when these are translated into English it has gone through a double translation process that produces these different readings. If one were to find a Greek edition of the Septuagint, these New Testament quotations taken from the Old Testament match better what was written in the Greek translations of the Old Testament.

The production of the Septuagint, and its use by the first century Christians, is also behind why Catholics and Protestants appear to have two different Bibles. Careful readers of the two will note that there are 7 more books in the Catholic Bible than in the one used by in most protestant churches. This is because when the canon of the scripture (the list of "official" books) was finally settled in the 4th century, the Church had gone through a long process of consensus building regarding the books to be recognized to make up the New Testament, but they simply adapted the practice of the first century Christians in accepting the books that were part of the Greek edition of the scriptures used by the Jews for the Old Testament. This was unquestioned until the time of Martin Luther, who objected to so many things that the Catholic Church had done. And by the time of Luther, the Jewish world had tried to distance itself from anything associated with Christianity. They had quite using the Greek edition of the scriptures and only read from a Hebrew Bible. When some of the Catholic Churches favorite passages for arguing for some of its unique doctrines regarding Mary where to be found in the LXX, those books that included those passages became unpopular in Jewish circles. The Jews had not "officialy" listed a canon of scripture like the Christian Church had done, and so what was and was not to be viewed as Holy Scripture often varied. For instance, some strict Hasidic Jews only recognize the Books of Moses. Most Jews would read the commentaries on the books of Moses and other writings by the prophets as much as they read the Hebrew Bible itself, these works were known as the Mishnah, the Midrash, and the Talmud. So it wasn't until after the Christian Church with its view of the scriptures rooted in the Jewish scriptures and some Christian doctrines that the Jews objected to being gleaned from them, that the Jews acted to make an "official" list of the accepted books of the Hebrew Bible. And this list was missing 7 books that had been found in the Septuagint and accepted by the early Christian church as sacred scripture. So, when Luther decided to translate the Bible into German, he looked at the Bible actually used by the Jews and worked from that list of books to produce his Old Testament rather than the list used by the Church in Rome. Thus became the tradition of Protestant Bibles having 7 less books in their Old Testament than the Catholic Bible.



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Now, I know that was a long answer to a short question, but I saw some of these other issues coming up in the discussion that followed and others are things that come up repeatedly in thread after thread. So, I just thought I would try to address it all at one time. Sorry, if it was beyond most people's interest to read.
 
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Several people have tried to respond to this, most of it has been pretty right on too. But there have been a few minor points that I might disagree with. Rather than responding to each individually, I'll try to tackle the whole of it in this one post.

Short answer: The Bible was not written in Jesus' native Aramaic in the first place.



Long answer:
You are correct that Jesus' native language would have been Aramaic, but there is little evidence to suggest that any of the Bible was written in Jesus' native tongue.


The first books of the Bible were written (according to tradition) by Moses in Hebrew. Collectively they go by various names: The Pentatuech, the Torah, the Books of the Law, or the Books of Moses. (Of course, someone else had to pen the closing scene of Moses death and added that to complete Moses' story.) Individually they are known as Genesis, Exoduc, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

Over time the remaining books of the Hebrew Bible (you may know it by the name Tanakh) or what Christians call the Old Testament were written. Nearly all of these books were also written in Hebrew. I say nearly, because there are traces of Babylonian Aramaic creeping into the text of parts of the book of Daniel, but this is only just a few chapters in which this is found; othewise the entire Tanakh is in Hebrew.

Sometime, during the Babylonian Captivity, the name for the period between 605 and 539 BCE, during which many of the elite citizenry of the nation of Judah was kept as POWs in Babylon (modern Bagdhad), the daily Hebrew language used by most Jews was sufficiently modified to emerge as a new language, Aramaic, that would become well enough established, that by the time of Jesus it was Aramaic, and not Hebrew, which was the common language spoken by most Jews in Palestine. However, the Tanakh was still read in Hebrew, and Hebrew was used and studied for religious purposes. Given that Jesus was literate, remember most people were not, it is certain that Jesus not only spoke Aramaic, but also Hebrew.

It is even likely that Jesus also spoke Greek in addition to both his native Aramaic and his educationin Hebrew. This is because, while Aramaic was the common language of most Jews, Greek was the lingua franca of the world that had been under the rule of Alxendar the Great, which Palestine had been. Strange as it might sound, Greek was the unifying language of the Roman Empire; even in Rome, the common people spoke Greek. Greek was used on a daily basis for commerce and industry. Because of the development of a global commerce, it was common for any written document that was to be used by the common people to be written in Greek -- they have even found routine items equivlent to a grocery list from excavations of 1st century sites in Israel that were written in Greek. For this reason, when the first letters that would eventually become the New Testament were written, since they were written to churches in the Greek speaking world (mostly in Asia minor and Greece), they were written in Greek. Later, when the Gospels were written, these too were written to be read by the whole world and thus were also written in Greek. (The one possible exception to this is that some think that before Matthew was written, that there might have been a proto-Matthew that was written in Hebrew. The reason for this is that the content of the book of Matthew shows strong indications that his intended audience was either Jewish Christians and there are anacronisms of a few Aramaic words that made it into the Greek text untranslated.)

However, it must be noted that we do not have the original autographs of any biblical book. The best we have are copies of copies. Some of these are quite ancient. Some are so old that all we have a fragments, for instance the old piece of the New Testament is a small postage-sized piece of the Gospel of John, dated to about 100 AD (probably less than 10-20 after it was written), and that is in Greek. In fact, all of the oldest pieces we have of the New Testament (be they small fragments or entire books) are universally in Greek. It isn't until the 300s that we find copies of the New Testament in any langauge other than Greek. Among hte first copies in other languages, copies that begin to appear in the 4th and 5th century), are copies in Latin, Coptic, and Syriac -- Syriac being what Aramaic had evolved into by the 4th century, in fact you will still hear many people refer to a Syriac edition of the Bible as being written in Aramaic they are so closely related. (Note: ancient Syriac and modern Syrian are NOT the same language, even though they too are related.)

Until 1945, and the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls the oldest copies of any Old Testament book were Hebrew copies dated to about 800 CE. But in the collection of books known as the Dead Sea Scrolls, were found some (not all) books of the Old Testament that date to about 200 BCE, more than 1000 years earlier than the previous earliest copies of Hebrew literature. They allowed for comparison in between the two sets of books. While not identical, the reported differences were so small (something akin to missing or adding a comma here and there) as to not change the reading of the texts. Some cite this as evidence of the integrity of the copying process, though I believe it must credited only to the copying done of the Old Testament by Jewish scribes. The copying of the New Testament shows many scribal glosses, most accidental errors, one or two with obvious intent. Fortunately the large number of copies of the New Testament (more than any other book of it's antiquity) allows for comparison between the various copies, giving scholars the ability to even recognize lines of copies and where mistakes were made, and thereby work their way backward to the most likely text from which the copies were originally made.

Just as in time the books of the New Testament were translated into other languages, so too were the books of the Hebrew Bible (or the Old Testament). Tradition says that this happened around 200 BCE when the Jews produced a Greek edition of their scriptures. This Greek translation was known by the name The Septuagint (or LXX), and was written in the same type of Greek (Koine Greek) that the Christian New Testament would later come to be written in. For this reason, many non-Hebrew speaking Christians preferred to use the LXX rather than the Tanakh when referring to the Jewish scriptures. If you take a look at quotes of the Old Testament found in the New Testament and then compare them with the original verse in the Old Testament passage from which it was taken, you will see some changes, sometimes signficant changes. This is because when translating the Bible today, translators primarily use the Hebrew copies of texts of the Old Testament to translate it into English, but the earliest Christians were used to using the Greek translation for their own writings and when these are translated into English it has gone through a double translation process that produces these different readings. If one were to find a Greek edition of the Septuagint, these New Testament quotations taken from the Old Testament match better what was written in the Greek translations of the Old Testament.

The production of the Septuagint, and its use by the first century Christians, is also behind why Catholics and Protestants appear to have two different Bibles. Careful readers of the two will note that there are 7 more books in the Catholic Bible than in the one used by in most protestant churches. This is because when the canon of the scripture (the list of "official" books) was finally settled in the 4th century, the Church had gone through a long process of consensus building regarding the books to be recognized to make up the New Testament, but they simply adapted the practice of the first century Christians in accepting the books that were part of the Greek edition of the scriptures used by the Jews for the Old Testament. This was unquestioned until the time of Martin Luther, who objected to so many things that the Catholic Church had done. And by the time of Luther, the Jewish world had tried to distance itself from anything associated with Christianity. They had quite using the Greek edition of the scriptures and only read from a Hebrew Bible. When some of the Catholic Churches favorite passages for arguing for some of its unique doctrines regarding Mary where to be found in the LXX, those books that included those passages became unpopular in Jewish circles. The Jews had not "officialy" listed a canon of scripture like the Christian Church had done, and so what was and was not to be viewed as Holy Scripture often varied. For instance, some strict Hasidic Jews only recognize the Books of Moses. Most Jews would read the commentaries on the books of Moses and other writings by the prophets as much as they read the Hebrew Bible itself, these works were known as the Mishnah, the Midrash, and the Talmud. So it wasn't until after the Christian Church with its view of the scriptures rooted in the Jewish scriptures and some Christian doctrines that the Jews objected to being gleaned from them, that the Jews acted to make an "official" list of the accepted books of the Hebrew Bible. And this list was missing 7 books that had been found in the Septuagint and accepted by the early Christian church as sacred scripture. So, when Luther decided to translate the Bible into German, he looked at the Bible actually used by the Jews and worked from that list of books to produce his Old Testament rather than the list used by the Church in Rome. Thus became the tradition of Protestant Bibles having 7 less books in their Old Testament than the Catholic Bible.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, I know that was a long answer to a short question, but I saw some of these other issues coming up in the discussion that followed and others are things that come up repeatedly in thread after thread. So, I just thought I would try to address it all at one time. Sorry, if it was beyond most people's interest to read.

the thing that confuses me most is why wasnt the scriptures of the christians written under the supervision of jesus himself. how can you so be so sure alot of things were added that jesus never said and what if alot of things were taken away that jesus did say? . idk maybe because its so cleart cut and simple in islam that i fail to grasp the justifications used to explain christianity
 
the thing that confuses me most is why wasnt the scriptures of the christians written under the supervision of jesus himself. how can you so be so sure alot of things were added that jesus never said and what if alot of things were taken away that jesus did say? . idk maybe because its so cleart cut and simple in islam that i fail to grasp the justifications used to explain christianity

I think this is where our respective understandings of the purpose of Jesus' being here effect what we expect to have happened. Interpreting how I see Muslims understand and appreciate their faith, it is primarily tied up in the giving of the Qur'an to Muhammed (pbuh). But for Christians, it isn't about any specific set of commands or words from Allah that Jesus might have given. John testifies at the conclusion of his Gospel:
And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. (John 21:25)
So we don't need a complete record of everything Jesus said and did, rather we focus on that which (in the opinion of his disciples) was most important:
Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:30-31)

I know this may sound strange to some, but I believe it to be true. If someday a journal of Jesus' life kept in Jesus' own hand were to be found, or if we had the capacity to go back in time and record everything Jesus said, those items, valuable as they might be, would not compare to what we already have regarding the testimony of his atoning sacrifice. You see it was that event on the cross and coming forth from the tomb, not Jesus words, that created a new faith called Christianity. If Jesus is nothing more than just another prophet, then add him to the list of the other Jewish propehts, and we are still left with nothing but the Law. But that is NOT the reason for which Jesus came. True he did not abolish the Law; but it does not remain with the same force it had before because he fulfilled it. The Law held people accountable before God. We are still accountable for how we live, because we who belong to Christ need to live as representatives of Christ in this world and to see Christ in others. But we don't do so to earn salvation by our own righteous acts, as the prophets said long before Jesus, "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6). Rather, we depend on God's grace: "In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God' " (Hosea 1:10). And this offering of God's grace is accomplished for us in the life, not the words, of Jesus. And the Christian Gospels proclaim the Good News of this offering of God's grace.

Please, understand, the Christian Gospels (the Good News about his offering of salvation on the cross) are not the same as what Muslims conceive of as the Injil (the record of Jesus' teachings). And even if we were to have that record, it would not mean anything without the story of God's gracious gift, for we would still be stuck in our sins, trying to earn our way to salvation. Something that the Jews could not do before, and I don't believe anyone has done since, for to earn salvation is not just to do more good than bad, it is to do only that which is good and no bad at all. And no one other than Jesus has ever lived that perfect of a life of righeousness. Thus, without his righteousness somehow being imputed to our lives, we are still dead in our sins. And there is no good news in that. But, praise God!, we do have the good news of Christ's offering passed on to us, and we really don't need any more of the story of Jesus' life than that to receive the gift of God's grace in our own lives.
 
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when god became man, man to became god, that is the major bone of contention methinks.
and the matter of god forgiving sins is up to him not to us, but then you were presenting you're POV.
what do you think of the Ebionites btw?
 
what do you think of the Ebionites btw?

First, I think the fact that they did not appear on the scene until the 2nd century shows that they are not reflective of the original values and beliefs held by Christians in the first century.

Second, I think the fact that they were resisted by the majority of the Church and basically disappeared by the end of the 4th century shows that they did not then and do not now represent core Christian beliefs, but are one of many sects that have sprouted within the soil of the Church, but are not truly representative of the Church.

Third, I do not think that the modern development of a new group of people who cast themselves as Ebionites is anything but rehashing of a long ago discarded heresy.

Fourth, and most importantly, I find their Christology lacking and not in accord with the scriptures that were available to them at the time.

Fifth, and in keeping with the theme of this thread, their existence does prove that a group of people can not only follow, but even invent a religion, but don't necessarily have to believe in God. These Ebionites were indeed highly religious but rejected the Jewish understaning of God in claiming to follow Jesus and that his death was of vicarious sacrificial value in providing atonement for their sins, yet they then also rejected the Christian understanding of Jesus by not recognizing him as divine. Hence I would hold that in essence the Ebionites actually had no God, but were indeed religious.
 
didn't they appear in the first century though.. and wouldn't using ad populum mean jesus was also a heretic since most of his people rejected him.
this will go off topic so never mind actually.
 
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didn't they appear in the first century though.. and wouldn't using ad populum mean jesus was also a heretic since most of his people rejected him.
this will go off topic so never mind actually.
No, I'll answer.

Some of the ideas appeared in the first century. The group itself did not.

Yes, Jesus would be (still is) considered a heretic to historic Jewish theology.
 

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