for the sikhs... sargun and nirgun

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Dawud_uk

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"Say: Truth has arrived and falsehood has been vanquished, indeed falsehood by its very nature is bound to be vanquished." (Qur'an 17:81)

To the Sikhs on this board...

I have been reading your faith describes God as both Sargun AND Nirgun,

Sargun = being manifest in the creation
Nirgun = being un-manifest.

Surely these two matters are contradictory? How can God be both at the same time?
Have I misunderstood this or are these two contradictory concepts taught about God in the Sikhi faith?

Is this like the Muslim idea of God being outside the creation, but with us as humans being part of this creation we can see some of the beauties and wonders created by God and so realise he is there? Is this what you mean by Sargun?

Or do you literally mean that God manifests himself inside the creation in the same manner as the Hindus believe?

Abu Abdullah
 
Dawud_uk said:
Is this like the Muslim idea of God being outside the creation, but with us as humans being part of this creation we can see some of the beauties and wonders created by God and so realise he is there? Is this what you mean by Sargun?

Or do you literally mean that God manifests himself inside the creation in the same manner as the Hindus believe?

Abu Abdullah
Click to expand...

The regular debate from Islamic (semetic) side is about the Nirgun - Sargun attribute of Waheguru. So i feel this should be commented, all other details are perhaps not necessary as we humans could never totaly grasp Waheguru and the Personality.

So Nirgun and Sargun as actually words from the Advaitic thought (a part of Hindu philosophy). The meanings are nirgun 'without attributes' or 'free from three values (forms/shapes) of Maya' and sargun is 'with all attributes' or 'with three values of Maya'. So as Tawheed from a empirical (wordly/logical) point-of-view these concepts intercoined would mean a apposition. and as he said 'a can not be 'not a''.

before is go on to what Gurmat says about 'Nirgun-Sargun' it may be interesting to know something about the old Indian thoughts:
Shankra, a Hindu teolog said that Ishvar(a) was a lower stage of God, which was in Nirgun "stage" [being Transcended or outside universe]. Brahm is a higher "stage" of God. Ramunaj, another teolog meant that God is pantheistic, that God lives only in nature or can be "judged" through laws of energy/physics. He said Univsere, Souls and Ishvara are three eternal principles; universe and souls are the body and qualities of Brahm. These three eternal principles of Ishvara, souls and the world consitute Brahm, which is entirely different concept of One Creator, Waheguru.

The Gurus criticized such distinct phrasing of God into stages. Teologs were as now fighting that Ishvara / Brahm were sargun / nirgun, etc.
Guru Sahib in Sukhmani Sahib says:


He possesses all qualities; He transcends all qualities; He is the Formless Lord. He Himself is in Primal Samaadhi.

Infact Gurus never accepted the Advaitic concepts of sargun and nirgun, for in Gurmat God is behond such limits. Waheguru is not an 'a' or 'not a'. God is eternal, infinite, without limits, but at the same time is God everywhere. Hence the Guru Sahib said 'God is both Sargun-Nirgun'

The NIRGUN (roughly translated as Transcended God) has been accepted by almost all religions...it means that God (either as The Eternal Creator or in some stage as in Hinduism) is outside creation or universe. Futher to this Gurmat says that being outside universe, God cannot be judges through our spacio-temporal logic, since God is beyond terms as space or time...as Nirgun, God was there before the creation of Universe. Creation in Sikhism is the appearence of Naam. unlike various Hindu concepts of a lower stage or higher stage God creating universe, Gurmat says the creation and governing of universe is infact a part of Naam (that can be said to be the 'word' or Will of Waheguru). When such a creation happends, things change. GOD IS STILL NIRGUN.

FORM appears, meaning things can be seen and judged by our spacio-temporal logic, now here Guru Sahib say that also in the universe (the creation or what could be seen) God exists. saying that God is only Nirgun means that GOD IS NOT in creation. then we have a place which our muslim brother calls 'not a'...BUT THERE IS NO PLACE WHERE GOD CANNOT BE! saying this would mean that God has a limit, ie that it does not enter the universe. The difference between Sikhism and some thoughts in Hinduism that could be identified as pantheism (that God is in nature) is that Sikhism also accepts the Nirgun attribute of God. For us, God is not only in nature, or what can bee seen through eyes, God is also beyond our imagination or phsyical understanding.
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so the difference lays in WHAT WAY CREATION HAPPENS! The Semetic though has that God created creation of nothing, but Gurmat says that God created universe out of Himself. in teologic view it is called (ex-nihilo: creation from nothin, ex-deu: creation from God). this highlights a point that Gurmat accepts a view called monism; that means 'source of all (universe, humans, organism) is from One (God)'.

People confuse this with pantheism, but infact as Sikhism accepts BOTH NIRGUN AND SARGUN concepts God in Sikhism is still monotheistic. it may be also noted that these concepts are not "Sikh" concepts because when saying this Guru Sahib is actually criticizing the Hindu teories of a seperate Nirgun and a seperate Sargun at different high or low stages....God is Sikhism is IkOnkaar. ONE CREATOR ALL-EXISTENT GOD. in essense Guru Sahib is only making clear the All-existent God by saying he is both Nirgun and Sargun at once.
 
looks like my previous post was deleted.... any how


1) Sargun (with attributes) and Nirgun (without attribute) is not a contradiction. --- this “contradiction” is even at face value no mistake. In the same line in Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee it is written, “Sargun, Nirgun, the Formless One is in complete Samadhi” (Ang 290) and also “He is himself is Nirgun and he himself is also Sargun” (Ang 287).

Clearly where these are presented in the same verse, there must be a meaning or message. It has not been done accidentally or through oversight.

A simple answer to the apparent “contradiction” is this: God has existed forever. He is without start. He continues to exist. God is formless and his realm is Sachkhand. But just as the sun resides in one place but its rays are everywhere and felt everywhere, so is the nature of God. When God created Creation, He placed His jot or His light within it. Creation has his light within it and so it is not separated from him. When someone becomes spiritually enlightened through Naam, the light of God is seen from creation as well.
 
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AvarAllahNoor said:
Post was deleted
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akaaaaaaaaaal


I would just like to say however to muslims on this board that i am not no sikh scholor.. my knowledge of sikhi is very little, and i share with you what i have leart or gained through sikhi!
 
Greetings,

I deleted the initial post because it contained some inappropriate content, such as alleging that the Qur'an has contradictions. This is one of the reasons why we encourage a member's own words rather than simply copying and pasting. The following posts were then removed as they were in response to deleted posts; I assure you this has nothing to do with "censoring the truth".

Let's try to stick to the topic now, thank you.
 
Death is a better informatant about who is guided and who has been left astray. Regret then, is just that and of no use.

Until, when death comes to one of them, he says: "My Lord! Send me back, so that I may do good in that which I have left behind!" No! It is but a word that he speaks and behind them is a barrier until the Day when they will be resurrected.

And they will say: "Our Lord! Verily, we obeyed our chiefs and our great ones, and they misled us from the (Right) Way.

I have deleted the last few posts. Please try to remain on topic.
 
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har ko naam lai ootam Dharmaa.

Chanting the Name of the Lord is the highest religion. (SSGS)
 
there is still a contradiction there, i do not agree you have explained it at all.

you can say God was Nirgun and is now Sargun, though i would disagree with you on that also but you cannot say God is both at the same time, they are multually exclusive concepts and you havent explained it at all.

as for God being the creation, and the creation being God but please excuse my strength of feeling but that is worse disbelief than the christians.

there have been deviant disbelieving muslims who have said the same thing, that Allah is everywhere and in everything but this is on contradiction to reason as i have stated above as well as in contradiction to scripture from islam.

ibn tamiyyah, a medieval scholar said the so called muslims who believed Allah to be everywhere and in everything were worse disbelievers than the christians because they only place Allah in one part of the creation - jesus christ (peace be upon him) where as these people place Allah in all parts of the creation so their disbelief is worse.

so i dont believe you have explained the contradiction at all, God cannot both be manifest and un-manifest, two totally opposite attributes.

to qoute from Gary miller (though he was discussing God being man and God) he said take a ball of clay and make corners on it and square it off and it becomes a cube but dont tell me dont be fooled it is still a ball because it isnt, it has become a cube. and dont round it out and then call but it is still a cube because it isnt, it is now a ball.

simularly dont say God is both Nirgun and Sargun, because God cannot be both manifest and un-manifest in creation, both are totally opposite points.

everything has attributes by which it is known, Sargun and Nirgun are power opposite attributes and cannot both be true.

Abu Abdullah
 
Dawud_uk said:
simularly dont say God is both Nirgun and Sargun, because God cannot be both manifest and un-manifest in creation, both are totally opposite points.

everything has attributes by which it is known, Sargun and Nirgun are power opposite attributes and cannot both be true.

Abu Abdullah
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You underestimate the omnipotence of Allah

1 - nirgun sargun har har mayraa ko-ee hai jee-o aan milaavai jee-o. ||1||

My Lord, Har, Har, is both absolute and related, unmanifest and manifest; is there anyone who can come and unite me with Him? ||1||

(Guru Arjan Dev)

2 - nirgun sargun aapay so-ee.

The Lord Himself is Unmanifest and Unrelated; He is Manifest and Related as well.

(Guru Amar Das)

3 - eeghai nirgun ooghai sargun kayl karat bich su-aamee mayraa. ||1|| rahaa-o.

In this world, You are the absolute, formless Lord; in the world hereafter, You are the related Lord of form. You play it both ways, O my Lord and Master. ||1||Pause||

Guru Arjan Dev
 
i am going to be honest, you qouting the Guru Granth Sahib only shows its flaws here.

the two are multually exclusive concepts and cannot be reconciled at all.

at the end of the day we may need to agree to differ here but to me this is a clear contradiction and flaw in the sikh faith and with the Guru Granth Sahib.

Abu Abdullah
 
Dawud_uk said:
i am going to be honest, you qouting the Guru Granth Sahib only shows its flaws here.

the two are multually exclusive concepts and cannot be reconciled at all.

at the end of the day we may need to agree to differ here but to me this is a clear contradiction and flaw in the sikh faith and with the Guru Granth Sahib.

Abu Abdullah
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Why, because it's not feasible to you personally? - You asked a question, now you provide proof that Allah is not Manifest and unmanifest. Nirgun and Sargun! - What your opinion on it is irrelevant. Prove it wrong with cast iron evidence. And I'll reject what my Guru Granth Sahib states.

I'll await your reply brother! Bearing in mind, a few people have tired it before. Nothing has materialised as of yet. :D
 
AvarAllahNoor said:
Why, because it's not feasible to you personally? - You asked a question, now you provide proof that Allah is not Manifest and unmanifest. Nirgun and Sargun! - What your opinion on it is irrelevant. Prove it wrong with cast iron evidence. And I'll reject what my Guru Granth Sahib states.

I'll await your reply brother! Bearing in mind, a few people have tired it before. Nothing has materialised as of yet. :D
Click to expand...

i believe Allah is outside the creation, above his arsh (throne), above the heavens. why do i believe this?

because Allah himself states it in the Quran. so how do i know the Quran is true? because i have subjected it to logical scutiny. have you subjected your book the Guru Granth Sahib to the same scutiny?

manifest and unmanifest are totally polar positions, Allah / God cannot be one and the other at the same time.

it is beyond us to prove this until the day of judgement, but if you search you reason you will see that Allah is not contradictory, Allah has given us good sense enough to see the right from the wrong path.

would you not agree with that? that Allah gives us the good sense to look for the truth and see the errors as best we can? yes we will make mistakes, we are only human but Allah has given us the capacity to see which path is true and which false?

one way we can do this is examine each path logically for flaws and errors, i havent found them in islam, but the more i examine sikhi the more i find them.

see also my thread

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/37097-heaven-hell-reincarnation-sikhs.html

where i can see another contradiction in the Guru Granth Sahib unless you can show i am wrong some how but it is an inherent contradiction again to believe in both reincarnation AND heaven and hell.

Abu Abdullah
 
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Dawud_uk said:
i believe Allah is outside the creation, above his arsh (throne), above the heavens. why do i believe this?

because Allah himself states it in the Quran. so how do i know the Quran is true? because i have subjected it to logical scutiny. have you subjected your book the Guru Granth Sahib to the same scutiny?

manifest and unmanifest are totally polar positions, Allah / God cannot be one and the other at the same time.

it is beyond us to prove this until the day of judgement, but if you search you reason you will see that Allah is not contradictory, Allah has given us good sense enough to see the right from the wrong path.

would you not agree with that? that Allah gives us the good sense to look for the truth and see the errors as best we can? yes we will make mistakes, we are only human but Allah has given us the capacity to see which path is true and which false?

one way we can do this is examine each path logically for flaws and errors, i havent found them in islam, but the more i examine sikhi the more i find them.

Abu Abdullah
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You're biased. - I'm not! - You believe what the Quran states, I the SGGS. - 1430 pages in SGGS evryone has been scrutinsed by theolgians. Not a single word is flawed.

But yes you are right. Allah has given us the right to choose what is right. I've found what is right. Equally you have too, becasue of what you believe!
 
AvarAllahNoor said:
You're biased. - I'm not! - You believe what the Quran states, I the SGGS. - 1430 pages in SGGS evryone has been scrutinsed by theolgians. Not a single word is flawed.

But yes you are right. Allah has given us the right to choose what is right. I've found what is right. Equally you have too, becasue of what you believe!
Click to expand...

well i am not a theologian but i have found flaws, the more i read the more flaws i find.

it is beautiful book, dont get me wrong on that and full of good moral guidence but i was reading just today and on the same page it spoke of how the slanderer is going to hell, but then later it states the slanderer is to keep reincarnating... and yet a few lines down it says the slander is in hell,

clear contradictions and flaws in reasoning and logic.

Abu Abdullah
 
Dawud_uk said:
well i am not a theologian but i have found flaws, the more i read the more flaws i find.

it is beautiful book, dont get me wrong on that and full of good moral guidence but i was reading just today and on the same page it spoke of how the slanderer is going to hell, but then later it states the slanderer is to keep reincarnating... and yet a few lines down it says the slander is in hell,

clear contradictions and flaws in reasoning and logic.

Abu Abdullah
Click to expand...

This is why you need to have an understanding. Some one learned needs to be there to explain to you.

You need a key

Hell = reincarnating etc - It's going to be difficult for you to fathom as I say, because some words used by various prophets are used but they mean a certain thing. - Do you understand what I'm saying?

These are misunderstandings, and not flaws *sighs* lol
 
AvarAllahNoor said:

This is why you need to have an understanding. Some one learned needs to be there to explain to you.

You need a key

Hell = reincarnating etc - It's going to be difficult for you to fathom as I say, because some words used by various prophets are used but they mean a certain thing. - Do you understand what I'm saying?
Click to expand...

i can understand you are saying this life is like a hell, but the muslims believe the same also. so you are saying it is a metaphor correct?

perhaps we could continue this discussion on the seperate thread i have created?

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/37097-heaven-hell-reincarnation-sikhs.html

Abu Abdullah
 
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa
Waheguru ji ki Fateh
Yes in sikhi no one can equate him no one equal to God
Speaking truth In guru granth sahib of sikhi
God is nirgun that is formless and without attributes also
God is sirgun that is with form and with attributes.
It is not contradiction if you understand completely what sikhi says
In page 1349 guru granth sahib
ਅਵਲ ਅਲਹ ਨੂਰੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਕੇ ਸਭ ਬੰਦੇ ॥
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.
ਏਕ ਨੂਰ ਤੇ ਸਭੁ ਜਗੁ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਕਉਨ ਭਲੇ ਕੋ ਮੰਦੇ ॥੧॥
From the One Light, the entire universe welled up. So who is good, and who is bad?
In sikhi we believe light of God created entire universe and beings are made.
So the formless god has made creation by his light which is not normal light though Thus god is connected with beings and exist in form .
Light also posses both wave particle nature as proved in science
And in page 30 guru granth sahib says God
ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕ ਜੋਤਿ ਦੁਇ ਮੂਰਤੀ ਸਬਦਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੪॥੧੧॥੪੪॥
O Nanak, the One Light has two forms; through the Shabad, union is attained.
Thus light of God has two forms
One formless in wave nature
One with form in particle nature
So there is no doubt god is both nirgun and sirgun
But remember nirgun is not equal to sirgun
Because
In page 130 guru granth sahib says guru arjan
ਤੁਧੁ ਜੇਵਡੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਲਵੈ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਲਾਵਣਿਆ ॥੬॥
There is no other Giver as Great as You, O my Lord and Master. None approach or equal You.
 
I am not familiar with sikhism. But I am going to use my logic here.

Knowing that Allah is omnipotent...means, He can be anywhere at the same time...He can be anything. nothing is impossible for Allah...even things that are totally contradictory to each other is not impossible for Allah. So Sargun or nirgun...if they mean being manifest and being un-manifest in the creation...Allah can be both at the same time.

However, this does not mean that Allah actually IS anywhere and anything. So, at this point I have to agree with Dawud. He has the potential to be anywhere...to manifest himself into rocks, trees, plants, water, fire, etc, etc...but He is only in one place like Dawud said: outside the creation, above his arsh (throne), above the heavens. Yes, you can see and feel His presence within all creation....but that doesn't mean He actually is a part of that creation.
That would be pantheism. We Muslims do not worship rocks and trees or anything else...We worship Allah only.
 
I think you didn't read above comment carefully read it you will get why Sikhs believe nirgun sirgun!!
Second think we consider Almighty as infinite so it possess all things infinite whether size,light,power etc
So saying Almighty omnipresent we talk about it's infinite nature
Tell me what quran and Hadith says about size of Allah !
Any reference provide

- - - Updated - - -

Every creation is part of Almighty check above
 
Gurdeep singh said:
I think you didn't read above comment carefully read it you will get why Sikhs believe nirgun sirgun!!
Second think we consider Almighty as infinite so it possess all things infinite whether size,light,power etc
So saying Almighty omnipresent we talk about it's infinite nature
Tell me what quran and Hadith says about size of Allah !
Any reference provide
Click to expand...
No I DID read the above comment carefully, but me as an average muslim know too little about Sikhism to fully understand the explanation.
Since a couple of months I have a sikh colleague which is why I am suddenly interested in the subject. Before that, I had nothing to do with sikhism.
So, one day I asked him what he believed. We did not have a long conversation about religion, but he gave a short explanation that Sikhism is a mix of Islaam and Hinduism.
They believe in one God ( in what form he did not explain), and that they do not eat pork, because of the muslims, and they do not eat beef because of Hinduism.
That was his only explanation.

About you asking about size of Allah in Quraan and Hadith...what exactly are you looking for? please elaborate.
I do not wish to attack your religion...I just wish to have a decent and respectful discussion and learn more about the religion of my direct colleague.
 

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