Freedom of Religion & The Death Penalty? [Good Refutation on Apostasy]

[Uthman]

Skavau,

I'm not sure whether you know this already, but the Islamic punishment for apostasy only applies in a country ruled by Islamic law (i.e. an Islamic state). Of course, this doesn't address your argument regarding the morality behind it but I'm just mentioning this in case you didn't realise it already.

 

[جوري]

Right, so don't interact with me then. I am not going to respond to someone who has no interest in engaging with me sincerely on the topic of the thread.

I never write on any thread with an atheist in mind. As for sincerity, well I think anyone who has been following this thread can recognize who is sincere in their approach and who isn't!

all the best

 

[Skavau]

Skavau,

I'm not sure whether you know this already, but the Islamic punishment for apostasy only applies in a country ruled by Islamic law (i.e. an Islamic state). Of course, this doesn't address your argument regarding the morality behind it but I'm just mentioning this in case you didn't realise it already.

I am indeed aware of this, yes.

 

[Uthman]

I am indeed aware of this, yes.

Then do you understand, from reading the article to which I linked, the following two points?:

1. The death penalty is not applied to a person who merely changes their beliefs because they no longer believe in Islam.
2. The death penalty is applied to a person who betrays the Islamic state by abandoning it in order to support enemy forces in battle against it.

Note that I'm not asking whether you agree with these laws but whether you understand that the above is the case.

Regards

 

[Skavau]

Then do you understand, from reading the article to which I linked, the following two points?:

1. The death penalty is not applied to a person who merely changes their beliefs because they no longer believe in Islam.
2. The death penalty is applied to a person who betrays the Islamic state by abandoning it in order to support enemy forces in battle against it.

Note that I'm not asking whether you agree with these laws but whether you understand that the above is the case.

Regards

Yes. I have very little moral disagreement with this argument or state of affairs. Keep in mind however, that from my experience not all Muslims claim this. The original poster in this article does not claim this.

I should like to comment on the article in your original post, but by its structure I am sure years by that I have actually responded to it. If it says nothing more than what you claim then I have no qualm.

EDIT: I should like to ask you about this paragraph at the end of the original post of the thread you linked me to. It might be slightly out of context, but I'd like to know what your take on this is.

So an Islamic state is certainly justified in punishing those who betray the state, committing treason and support enemy forces. As for anyone else, if they do not publicly declare their rejection of Islam, the state has no interest in pursuing them; if their case does become public, however, then they should be reasoned with and educated concerning the religion so that they have the opportunity to learn the concepts they may not have understood properly and they can be encouraged to repent.

What does the part in bold specifically mean? It implies that perhaps there are consequences for declaration of apostasy from Islam under Islamic Law?

 

[GuestFellow]

What does the part in bold specifically mean? It implies that perhaps there are consequences for declaration of apostasy from Islam under Islamic Law?

I think that is where once someone does publicly declare their rejection of Islam, they will be educated and reasoned with. After 3 days they fail to accept Islam, they shall be executed.

Though I'm not entirely sure.

 

[Skavau]

I think that is where once someone does publicly declare their rejection of Islam, they will be educated and reasoned with. After 3 days they fail to accept Islam, they shall be executed.

Though I'm not entirely sure.

Yes, indeed. This is the most frequent claim. I have addressed it in length in response to original post on this thread. But then, indeed (if this is 100% true) - it does despite some people's assurances become outright illegal to apostate from Islam under an Islamic state.

Stating that well, it is fine as long as you don't reveal yourself is like me telling a thief "oh don't worry, you're perfectly fine - just don't get caught".

 

[GuestFellow]

Stating that well, it is fine as long as you don't reveal yourself is like me telling a thief "oh don't worry, you're perfectly fine - just don't get caught".

Not really, from an Islamic point of view, you will be judged in the next life. No escape.

 

[جوري]

Yes, indeed. This is the most frequent claim. I have addressed it in length in response to original post on this thread. But then, indeed (if this is 100% true) - it does despite some people's assurances become outright illegal to apostate from Islam under an Islamic state.

Stating that well, it is fine as long as you don't reveal yourself is like me telling a thief "oh don't worry, you're perfectly fine - just don't get caught".

No one said it is 'fine' that is something you've concocted to cement another non-point .. but if you have a sense of survival either don't commit a crime or have enough sense not to get caught.. obviously many apostates were granted reprieve by the messenger himself .. law abiding citizens who don't wish to cause mutiny shouldn't really be punished for what their hearts can't accept. However, if you are declaring your apostasy in such a fashion to usurp the govt. then again be prepared come what may..

There is a consequence to crime.. whether you believe that something is a crime or not, isn't the issue, the law (whatever it maybe) isn't subject to people's opinion. We don't for instance punish or release thieves because you or joe or max have a strong feeling about the matter!

all the best

 

[GuestFellow]

No one said it is 'fine' that is something you've concocted to cement another non-point .. but if you have a sense of survival either don't commit a crime or have enough sense not to get caught.. obviously many apostates were granted reprieve by the messenger himself ..

Can you please elaborate what I highlighted in bold? Were there Muslims who left Islam during the Prophet's time?

 

[Skavau]

No one said it is 'fine' that is something you've concocted to cement another non-point ..

Yes they have. It is a tactic used directly by other Muslims apologists. I appreciate your honesty regarding it though.

but if you have a sense of survival either don't commit a crime or have enough sense not to get caught.. obviously many apostates were granted reprieve by the messenger himself .. law abiding citizens who don't wish to cause mutiny shouldn't really be punished for what their hearts can't accept. However, if you are declaring your apostasy in such a fashion to usurp the govt. then again be prepared come what may..

Okay.

There is a consequence to crime.. whether you believe that something is a crime or not, isn't the issue, the law (whatever it maybe) isn't subject to people's opinion. We don't for instance punish or release thieves because you or joe or max have a strong feeling about the matter!

?

I don't also, for instance recognise that Islam has any divine right to govern large portions of the planet purely because its adherents really believe that it represents something divine. But this is neither here nor there.

You realise that it is a foundation of free expression to be able to question all laws?

 

[جوري]

Can you please elaborate what I highlighted in bold? Were there Muslims who left Islam during the Prophet's time?

4. From Islamic history, we can gain a better understanding of how this law has been implemented. Although the Prophet Muhammad pbuh threatened the death penalty in response to the attempts against the Muslim community, no such executions took place in his time (Imam Shawkani, Nayl Al-Awtar, vol. 7, p. 192) even though there is a report that a Bedouin renounced Islam and left Madinah unharmed in his time (Fath Al-Bari vol. 4, p.77 and vol. 13 p. 170; Sahih Muslim biSharh An-Nawawi, vol. 9, p. 391). Thus, we find that context plays an important role in determining how to deal with apostates. The case of one who enlists nations to fight against the Islamic state is more serious, for example. That is why the scholars of the Hanafi school of thought felt that the punishment only applies to the male apostate and not the female apostate because the latter is unable to wage war against the Islamic state. If someone simply has some doubts concerning Islam, then those doubts can be clarified.

http://www.islamicboard.com/20595-post1.html

I have written on the matter before but the search feature is making it impossible to find..

by the way reprieve doesn't mean condoning, rather not imposing the punishment imposed on apostates for political reasons!


and Allah swt knows best

 

[جوري]

Yes they have. It is a tactic used directly by other Muslims apologists. I appreciate your honesty regarding it though.

That is your own rendition!

I don't also, for instance recognise that Islam has any divine right to govern large portions of the planet purely because its adherents really believe that it represents something divine. But this is neither here nor there.

You realise that it is a foundation of free expression to be able to question all laws?

Questioning laws is fine and well, it doesn't give you the right to usurp it!

I can be unhappy with the current govt. of the U.S, but it shall remain as such whether I recognize it or not!

all the best