God and evolution

[fschmidt]

This thread is for people who believe in evolution. If you don't believe in evolution, please ignore this thread. This isn't a debate thread.

http://www.mikraite.org/Human-Evolution-tp17.html

This is an old post of mine explaining the relationship between God and evolution. I wrote it before I learned about Islam, so it was written based on the Old Testament. But I believe that it will make sense to Muslims who believe in evolution. I would like to know what you think.

 

[Ümit]

İn general...İ definitelly agree with you.
İ came to the same conclusion:
İf İslam is the true religion and Allah created the universe, Earth, all living creatures and every law of nature....then science can NEVER contradict with İslam. That is impossible.

You made some errors in your post though. One example:
You are saying that we should not take the Bible too literally so the statement of "God created us from clay and dust" is false.
The same statement can also be found in the Quran...so it cannot be false.
But think of it like this:
What happens to our bodies when we die?
İt decomposes and becomes a part of the Earth again right?
So when you think about it...it may be true after all...right?

Now the next step:
What happens to the body of animals when they die?

You see the connection now?
So animals are then also made from clay and dust.

Therefore...both statements are still valid:
Allah has created us from clay and dust...and he used evolution as a tool for the creation of all living creatures on Earth.

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İn general...İ definitelly agree with you.
İ came to the same conclusion:
İf İslam is the true religion and Allah created the universe, Earth, all living creatures and every law of nature....then science can NEVER contradict with İslam. That is impossible.

You made some errors in your post though. One example:
You are saying that we should not take the Bible too literally so the statement of "God created us from clay and dust" is false.
The same statement can also be found in the Quran...so it cannot be false.
But think of it like this:
What happens to our bodies when we die?
İt decomposes and becomes a part of the Earth again right?
So when you think about it...it may be true after all...right?

Now the next step:
What happens to the body of animals when they die?

You see the connection now?
So animals are then also made from clay and dust.

Therefore...both statements are still valid:
Allah has created us from clay and dust...and he used evolution as a tool for the creation of all living creatures on Earth.

 

[anatolian]

We simply came from a piece of a clay according to the evolution theory too. Clay is made of dust and water. Dust is made of carbon and its derivations. This is how science explains the life came on earth. A reaction of carbon (C) and water (H2O) lead to Hydrocarbons and these became the first organic molecules which became the fundementals of life. The first living cells, minerals, plants, animals and therefore the man. So the definition of Quran for how Allah created Adam from "clay" can be a shortage of this proccess which in reality took millions of years. So it is possible that Adam had a biolgical father and mother but Allah did not regard them "humans". This is how I regard it.

Also in the Sufi interpretation the above procces means a lot of things. It tells us where we came from and what we are. Our "nafs/self" simply comes from our animal nature. Our "'iidrak/perception" is the tool to know the divine. The reason why Allah did not consider the biological father and mother of Adam as humans was their lack of perception of Allah and their purpose.

 

[Abz2000]

Grass eats clay, and cattle eat grass, then we get loads of meat and fat and milk from cattle.

Not a very far removed process - single step actually.

Although it is true that the essential building block clay has to evolve a bit - just like Jesus who's made of clay - but is born of woman.

----

I intend to read your post later on inshaAllah [MENTION=30692]fschmidt[/MENTION] - wish it was more bite sized lol.

 

[hinabutt]

Theory of evolution raises many questions... Quran is the best guide in the universe

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MashaAllah

 

[Ümit]

Theory of evolution raises many questions... Quran is the best guide in the universe

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MashaAllah

Of course it raises many questions. there is still a lot we do not understand yet. and it should...because that is our continuous drive to search, investigate and develop.

and yes, the Quran is the best guide in the universe, but still...it is not a case of either Quran or something else...you can have both...that is my message here I want to make clear to everyone.
you can have the knowledge of the Quran AND science at the same time.

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Theory of evolution raises many questions... Quran is the best guide in the universe

- - - Updated - - -

MashaAllah

Of course it raises many questions. there is still a lot we do not understand yet. and it should...because that is our continuous drive to search, investigate and develop.

and yes, the Quran is the best guide in the universe, but still...it is not a case of either Quran or something else...you can have both...that is my message here I want to make clear to everyone.
you can have the knowledge of the Quran AND science at the same time.

 

[hinabutt]

Of course it raises many questions. there is still a lot we do not understand yet. and it should...because that is our continuous drive to search, investigate and develop.

and yes, the Quran is the best guide in the universe, but still...it is not a case of either Quran or something else...you can have both...that is my message here I want to make clear to everyone.
you can have the knowledge of the Quran AND science at the same time.

- - - Updated - - -

Of course it raises many questions. there is still a lot we do not understand yet. and it should...because that is our continuous drive to search, investigate and develop.

and yes, the Quran is the best guide in the universe, but still...it is not a case of either Quran or something else...you can have both...that is my message here I want to make clear to everyone.
you can have the knowledge of the Quran AND science at the same time.

I completely agree with you Umie.. Well, in my opinion there is answer to every question in Quran.. Allah Almighty has sent us to this place to learn and learn more.

May Allah guide us all.

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Of course it raises many questions. there is still a lot we do not understand yet. and it should...because that is our continuous drive to search, investigate and develop.

and yes, the Quran is the best guide in the universe, but still...it is not a case of either Quran or something else...you can have both...that is my message here I want to make clear to everyone.
you can have the knowledge of the Quran AND science at the same time.

- - - Updated - - -

Of course it raises many questions. there is still a lot we do not understand yet. and it should...because that is our continuous drive to search, investigate and develop.

and yes, the Quran is the best guide in the universe, but still...it is not a case of either Quran or something else...you can have both...that is my message here I want to make clear to everyone.
you can have the knowledge of the Quran AND science at the same time.

I completely agree with you Umie.. Well, in my opinion there is answer to every question in Quran.. Allah Almighty has sent us to this place to learn and learn more.

May Allah guide us all.

 

[rafhelp]

How can you be a muslim AND believe in evolution...
Because beleiving in evolution simply means god did not create man
but if you believe that you cant be muslim

 

[Ümit]

How can you be a muslim AND believe in evolution...
Because beleiving in evolution simply means god did not create man
but if you believe that you cant be muslim

Evolution does not mean God did not create man at all. Some people want to promote that...yes...but pure from scientific point of view...the evolution theory describes (or at least an attempt to describe) the proces behind the development of species. The presence of God is left open here.

 

[Good brother]

Evolution does not mean God did not create man at all. Some people want to promote that...yes...but pure from scientific point of view...the evolution theory describes (or at least an attempt to describe) the proces behind the development of species. The presence of God is left open here.

It means that there was no "plan of creation", according to Darwin.

But according to Quran 20:50:

Shakir
He said: Our Lord is He Who gave to everything its creation, then guided it (to its goal).
​

 

[Scimitar]

Evolution does not mean God did not create man at all. Some people want to promote that...yes...but pure from scientific point of view...the evolution theory describes (or at least an attempt to describe) the proces behind the development of species. The presence of God is left open here.

How about humans? do you believe we "evolved"??? or do you believe, that humans are succinctly exempted from evolution??? I'm wondering if you have lumped our species together with the animal kingdoms... or not.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Bushwackk;

How about humans? do you believe we "evolved"???

Evolution could not happen without Allah, and it says that man was made from the earth. so I just trust in scripture and not science.

May your journey through Ramadan be blessed,

Eric

 

[Ümit]

How about humans? do you believe we "evolved"??? or do you believe, that humans are succinctly exempted from evolution??? I'm wondering if you have lumped our species together with the animal kingdoms... or not.

I elaborated this already several times in this thread, but I will shortly elaborate it now too:

I believe in Creation. Allah created us from dust and clay. I do not believe in evolution....but...
I support evolution...lets face the facts:

• When we die, our bodies decompose and become dust and clay again...back to being a part of Earth again.
• when animals die, happens the same.

Does this mean that animals are also created from dust and clay? Islam does not say anything about it, but it seems like that to me.
I do not say that I am 100% sure that Evolution must have been happened, because science is never absolute. It is just a tool for us to try to explain the different phenomenon around us. It is an approximation of reality and as we develop, science get adjusted and fine tuned all the time.

But still, Allah may have used evolution as a tool to create all living creatures. Nothing in the Quran contradicts with this.

About the question whether we evolved from apes:
I think so, but not in the meaning of Adam as having ape parents.

one example I also gave before:
For the human reproduction process we require a male and a female to have sexual intercourse with each other. this was so in the past, this was so before and after Jesus as, and this will not change in the future.

The fact that Jesus as was born without a father did not change this process of human reproduction.
Jesus as got his Y-chromosomes from an unknown source...
What I am saying is that Allah is perfectly capable of making miracles happen...and these miracles do not have to change anything about the original process.

So, did we evolve from apes? yes, I think so untill almost the moment that apes became human...and then Allah created Adam as, but without parents...just like he created Jesus as
Where Adam as got his chromosomes krom is unknown....but this does not change anything about the natural evolution process before, nor after Adam as.

Like said, nothing happens on its own...evolution does not happen on its own. Behind the scenes, Allah is still behind the steering wheel...

but if you ask me, science and Islam are perfectly in sync here.

 

[anatolian]

How about humans? do you believe we "evolved"??? or do you believe, that humans are succinctly exempted from evolution??? I'm wondering if you have lumped our species together with the animal kingdoms... or not.

I believe we too evolved. We are not an exemption. We are just to quick to blame evolution with atheism because of its historical development. In fact Ibn Khaldun as a Muslim scientist thought it long years before Darwin. It is quite possible that Allah used the process of evolution to create us. Nothing happened by chance. Also Quran has a lot of metaphores. We cannot deny that. I refered to this metephor in my above post if you are interested. There are some ayats which I find interpretable by this way. The most prominent one is Insaan 1

The Man:1 “There surely came over man a period of time when he was a thing not worth mentioning.”

 

[Good brother]

In fact Ibn Khaldun as a Muslim scientist thought it long years before Darwin.

The Great Chain of Being has nothing to do with Darwinism. It's a greek philosophical idea of an order to creation.

https://www.islamicboard.com/health...ibn-khaldun-evolution-theory.html#post2985201

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 100%, align: center"]
[TR][TD] Ibn Khaldun’s Evolution Theory
Salam. Since the subject is heated frequently here and everywhere I thought it is a good idea to discuss its Islamic roots if there is any. I personall...[/TD][/TR][/TABLE]

 

[Abz2000]

How can you be a muslim AND believe in evolution...
Because beleiving in evolution simply means god did not create man
but if you believe that you cant be muslim

One would along a similar thread wonder how Arabic was to be the concentrate language chosen by God before the Quran was revealed, yet it evolved and continued to evolve long after Haajar :as: and Ismail :saws: settled in Makkah.
Or are there some of us who believe that the Arabic language - as it is in the Quran - was downloaded to man in one sitting?


Click to enlarge:

 

[keiv]

Then, as before, the question of, what happened to the 'apes who almost evolved to humans' once Adam (AS) was created, comes up. Did they disappear? Did they live side by side? Did they eventually evolve to humans and blend in? If so, are some of us offsprings of the evolved apes and some of us offsprings of Adam (AS)? If some people believe Adam (AS) had non human biological parents, where were they when Allah (SWT) created Adam (AS)? Were they as tall as Adam (AS)? If apes evolved to the point of almost being human like, would Allah (SWT) have needed to intervene or would the apes have eventually evolved to what we are today without Allah (SWT)?

 

[Ümit]

Then, as before, the question of,

as before, the answer to your question:

what happened to the 'apes who almost evolved to humans' once Adam (AS) was created, comes up.

As you can see there are no apes around which are almost human, we can conclude these apes got extinct.

Did they disappear?

maybe not directly, but eventually, yes

Did they live side by side?

I do not have information about this, but they might have lived side by side for a while.

Did they eventually evolve to humans and blend in?

No. that is for sure. All humanity comes from Adam as.

If so,

No.

are some of us offsprings of the evolved apes and some of us offsprings of Adam (AS)?

No.

If some people believe Adam (AS) had non human biological parents, where were they when Allah (SWT) created Adam (AS)?

Where did you read I said anything about Adam as having non human biological parents? I explicitly said in my post that Adam was created without parents, so, shere are you getting the non human biological parents from?

Were they as tall as Adam (AS)?

...

If apes evolved to the point of almost being human like, would Allah (SWT) have needed to intervene or would the apes have eventually evolved to what we are today without Allah (SWT)?

You still think evolution is an automatic phonomenon and Allah has to intervene sometimes...there is no intervening...Allah is in full controll...all the time...every step, every second in evolution is with Allahs permission.
so without Allah, nothing happens...not even evolution.

Look friend, I do not have all the questions about this, but if I may summarize, it boils down to this:

• All humans come from Adam as
• Adam was created from dust and clay...but so are animals...so there is a possibility that Allah uses evolution to create
• Quran is absolute...science however is NOT absolute...it gets adjusted and fine tuned as we develop ourselfes...so it might not be fully correct

It looks like you are trying to push me in the corner by asking such silly questions, but All I am saying is that evolution is a possibility and it does not contradict Islam.

 

[keiv]

as before, the answer to your question:
As you can see there are no apes around which are almost human, we can conclude these apes got extinct.
maybe not directly, but eventually, yes
I do not have information about this, but they might have lived side by side for a while.
No. that is for sure. All humanity comes from Adam as.
No.
No.

So, they were extint at the time of Adam (as) but could have lived side by side for a while? Ok..

Where did you read I said anything about Adam as having non human biological parents? I explicitly said in my post that Adam was created without parents, so, shere are you getting the non human biological parents from?

I didn't quote you but, either way, you did say in another thread Adam and Eve could be descendants of apes but with a miracle, then try to somehow make a connection between Adam (as) and Isa (as), where Islamically, one was birthed and the other was not. Outside of both being miracles, I don't see the connection.. The only way you can make a connection between the two is if you believe both Adam (as) and Isa (as) were birthed, which is not the case here. Anyways:

So it is possible that Adam had a biolgical father and mother but Allah did not regard them "humans". This is how I regard it.

Also in the Sufi interpretation the above procces means a lot of things. It tells us where we came from and what we are. Our "nafs/self" simply comes from our animal nature. Our "'iidrak/perception" is the tool to know the divine. The reason why Allah did not consider the biological father and mother of Adam as humans was their lack of perception of Allah and their purpose.

You still think evolution is an automatic phonomenon and Allah has to intervene sometimes...there is no intervening...Allah is in full controll...all the time...every step, every second in evolution is with Allahs permission.
so without Allah, nothing happens...not even evolution.

No I don't think that. You believe that evolution could have happened. My question was, if apes have evolved for however thousands or millions of years up to the point of Adam's (as) creation, what's to stop them from continuing to evolve and eventually becoming humuans? (now we're getting into atheist territory)

It looks like you are trying to push me in the corner by asking such silly questions, but All I am saying is that evolution is a possibility and it does not contradict Islam.

Apparently, there are others here who believe in this hybrid evolution theory which is why I didn't quote any one person. As far as what's silly, I'll just leave that alone...

 

[Ümit]

So, they were extint at the time of Adam (as) but could have lived side by side for a while? Ok..

I didn't quote you but, either way, you did say in another thread Adam and Eve could be descendants of apes but with a miracle, then try to somehow make a connection between Adam (as) and Isa (as), where Islamically, one was birthed and the other was not. Outside of both being miracles, I don't see the connection.. The only way you can make a connection between the two is if you believe both Adam (as) and Isa (as) were birthed, which is not the case here. Anyways:

So you do not see the connection between Adam as and Jesus as?
here is your daily dosis of biology then.

Humans have always a pair of chromosomes. males have XY chromosomes, females have XX chromosomes. egg cells only contain X chromosomes, so females can only pass X chromosomes to their offspring. spermcells however can contain either X, or Y chromosomes.
This means, during furtilization of an egg cell, the gender of the offspring is determined by the spermcell.

Jesus got his X chromosome from his mother...but where did he get the Y chromosome from? who's genes have been passed over to Jesus as? so here is the miracle with genes appearing from unknown source.

The same with Adam, but with the difference that not only Y, but both X and Y chromosomes have an unknown source.

so, birthed or not birthed is just a part of the issue.

You get the connection now?

No I don't think that. You believe that evolution could have happened.

COULD have happened, yes. It is a possibility. I am not ruling that out. Again, Science is not absolute and needs adjustment all the time...perhaps within 10 years the whole world gains new research results on evolution and we decide "this whole theory was just silly, what were we thinking?"

My question was, if apes have evolved for however thousands or millions of years up to the point of Adam's (as) creation, what's to stop them from continuing to evolve and eventually becoming humuans? (now we're getting into atheist territory)

The apes somehow got extinct. they did not evolve into humans, that is for sure...but that can be also a part of the miracle...I do not know...again, I do not have all the answers over here.

Apparently, there are others here who believe in this hybrid evolution theory which is why I didn't quote any one person. As far as what's silly, I'll just leave that alone...

Again, we do not believe in any theory...we believe in Islam...we just support this hybrid evolution theory...we do not say that this is how it happened...we say that this is a possibility how it might have happened...because every verse and hadeeth is still valid so it does not contradict with each other.
Allah is still present...he is still at the steering wheel.
I called your questions silly because you are still thinking about apes completely evolving into humans on their own parallel to Adam...that is not the case.
We just want to understand the process...that is all...stop thinking that we try to have an alternative to Islam...that is not the purpose here.