God's Law in OT

[AntiKarateKid]

Who is Hitchens?



Why is it so difficult to push into the culture? Christians went on to push it into other cultures, dozens of them in fact, afterwards. Talk to Jews today and you don't get much talk about hellfire and a need to be "saved" or "born again". That's pretty much left to the Christians.

I'd assume that them being "chosen people of God" makes it redundant to preach to the rest of us. Christians don't see their religion as some exclusive club and more willing to actually reach out (though some reach out just a bit too strongly).

I'd take a Christian neighbor who tries to tell me why "I need to be saved" than a Jewish one who simply talks to me, if at all, about why he/she was "chosen." One clearly gives a **** about me.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscellis

Believe it or not way back in history there were outcries and indeed people killed over cracker torture. Er I should say "mistreating of the eucharist", it being the body of Christ and therefore needing to be handled properly.

Jesus forgave and healed, sadly Christians do not always follow in the spirit of Jesus.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

 

[Zafran]

Who is Hitchens?



Why is it so difficult to push into the culture? Christians went on to push it into other cultures, dozens of them in fact, afterwards. Talk to Jews today and you don't get much talk about hellfire and a need to be "saved" or "born again". That's pretty much left to the Christians.

Salaam

they still have the idea of the wrath of God and being God fearing people and keeping the commands of God.

 

[wth1257]

I'd assume that them being "chosen people of God" makes it redundant to preach to the rest of us. Christians don't see their religion as some exclusive club and more willing to actually reach out (though some reach out just a bit too strongly).

I'd take a Christian neighbor who tries to tell me why "I need to be saved" than a Jewish one who simply talks to me, if at all, about why he/she was "chosen." One clearly gives a **** about me.

Because Christianity is an orthodoxic rather than orthopraxic religion. As a Muslim you keep the seven laws of Noah and according to the Talmudic tradition are assured a place in salvation. For the Jews you are already amongst the God fearing and don't need to become a Jew to be saved. They Jews as a people have made a covanant with God and they bear the burden of keeping the 613 laws in the Torah. If you want to become a Jew you could, but there would be no need to. For Christians, excluding some more pluralistic trends in the more intelectual strains, it doesn;t matter what you do. Your lack of accecpting Christ's divinity and accecpting him as your savior makes you hell bound.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

Because Christianity is an orthodoxic rather than orthopraxic religion. As a Muslim you keep the seven laws of Noah and according to the Talmudic tradition are assured a place in salvation. For the Jews you are already amongst the God fearing and don't need to become a Jew to be saved. They Jews as a people have made a covanant with God and they bear the burden of keeping the 613 laws in the Torah. If you want to become a Jew you could, but there would be no need to. For Christians, excluding some more pluralistic trends in the more intelectual strains, it doesn;t matter what you do. Your lack of accecpting Christ's divinity and accecpting him as your savior makes you hell bound.

Are you suggesting that a Muslim would be on the same level spiritual level as a Jew according to Judaism? That seems bizarre. They believe that their following of the Torah gives them access to a higher degree of connection with God. Otherwise what would be the point of taking the "burden"? Why wouldn't I want to upgrade from the noahide laws?

I don't like the idea of being a second class believer. Also, not all Christians believe that non-christians go to hell.

 

[YusufNoor]

Because Christianity is an orthodoxic rather than orthopraxic religion. As a Muslim you keep the seven laws of Noah and according to the Talmudic tradition are assured a place in salvation. For the Jews you are already amongst the God fearing and don't need to become a Jew to be saved. They Jews as a people have made a covanant with God and they bear the burden of keeping the 613 laws in the Torah. If you want to become a Jew you could, but there would be no need to. For Christians, excluding some more pluralistic trends in the more intelectual strains, it doesn;t matter what you do. Your lack of accecpting Christ's divinity and accecpting him as your savior makes you hell bound.

what's an orthoprax religion?

oh, and someone's been studying!

Are you suggesting that a Muslim would be on the same level spiritual level as a Jew according to Judaism?

no, according to Judaism, we are G-dFearers. VERY similar to Jews, in fact heaven bound. just not quite as good! despite their belief that they ruined their convenant, they expect to "get it back!"

That seems bizarre. They believe that their following of the Torah gives them access to a higher degree of connection with God.

they still believe that they are G-d's Chosen People. G-d Fearer's would be chosen people as well, just not as special!

Otherwise what would be the point of taking the "burden"? Why wouldn't I want to upgrade from the noahide laws?

IF there was no Islam, that would be something to think about. BUT, Alhumdulillah, we have it! so why would someone want to be El Magdoobi Alayhim?

I don't like the idea of being a second class believer. Also, not all Christians believe that non-christians go to hell.

some Christians, like Catholics, say that ALL OTHER christians are going to hell as well!

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

this quote describes a Conservative Jewish position, taken from a previous post:

We’ll leave the issue of Hagar for the moment except to pause to list the prophecies about Ishmael AT THIS TIME:

V10 And an Angel of Hashem said to her, “I will greatly increase your offspring, and they will not be counted for abundance.”
V 11 And an Angel of Hashem said to her, “Behold, you will conceive, and give birth to a son; his name shall be Ishmael, for Hashem has heard your prayer. And he shall be a wild-ass of a man; his hand against everyone, and everyone’s hand against him; and over all his brothers shall he dwell.”
The prophecy in verse 10 sounds VERY familiar to ones about Abraham’s’ descendants, while verse 11 gives us our other prophecy. We will return to Hagar later, Insha’ Allah.


Let us return to matter relating to Israel’s uncle Ishmael. In chapter 17, Chumash, God is speaking to Abraham about their covenant and promising a son through Sarah, Abraham interrupts God:
v18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before You!” God said, “Nonetheless, your wife Sarah will bear you a son and you shall call his name Isaac…v 20 But regarding Ishmael I have heard you; I have blessed him, will make him fruitful, and will increase him most exceedingly; he will beget twelve princes and I will make him into a great nation…”

Part of the notes for this verse read: “We see from the prophecy in this verse, that 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation [with the rise of Islam in the 7th Century C.E.]…Throughout this period, Ishmael hoped anxiously, until the promise was fulfilled and they dominated the world. We the descendants of Isaac, for whom the fulfillment of the promises made to us is delayed due to our sins…should surely anticipate the fulfillment of God’s promises and not despair” (R’ Bachya citing R’ Chananel).

Bereishsis/ Genesis adds: R’ Bachya cites R’ Chananel’s comment on this verse: We see from this prophecy [in the year 2047 from Creation, when Abraham was ninety-nine], 2337 years elapsed before the Arabs, Ishmael’s descendants, became a great nation. [This would correspond to 624 C.E, two years after the H(ijra)!…] to be honest, I totally missed the hijra comment the first time I read this because I wasn’t a Muslim and I didn’t know what they meant by hegira! But we do have one prophecy that at least according to the Jews, puts Islam as an Old Testament prophecy!


so you see ISLAM is prophesied in the Torah!

as for reasons that the Jews are El Magdoobi Alayhim, let's check their own texts. from Nehemiah ch 9:

1 Now in the twenty and fourth day of this month the children of Israel were assembled with fasting, and with sackcloth, and earth upon them.
2 And the seed of Israel separated themselves from all foreigners, and stood and confessed their sins, and the iniquities of their fathers.
3 And they stood up in their place, and read in the book of the Law of the LORD their God a fourth part of the day; and another fourth part they confessed, and prostrated themselves before the LORD their God.
4 Then stood up upon the platform of the Levites, Jeshua, and Bani, Kadmiel, Shebaniah, Bunni, Sherebiah, Bani, and Chenani, and cried with a loud voice unto the LORD their God.
5 Then the Levites, Jeshua, and Kadmiel, Bani, Hashabneiah, Sherebiah, Hodiah, Shebaniah, and Pethahiah, said: 'Stand up and bless the LORD your God from everlasting to everlasting; and let them say: Blessed be Thy glorious Name, that is exalted above all blessing and praise.
6 Thou art the LORD, even Thou alone; Thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all things that are thereon, the seas and all that is in them, and Thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth Thee.
7 Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham;
8 and foundest his heart faithful before Thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanite, the Hittite, the Amorite, and the Perizzite, and the Jebusite, and the Girga****e, even to give it unto his seed, and hast performed Thy words; for Thou art righteous;
9 And Thou sawest the affliction of our fathers in Egypt, and heardest their cry by the Red Sea;
10 and didst show signs and wonders upon Pharaoh, and on all his servants, and on all the people of his land; for Thou knewest that they dealt proudly against them; and didst get Thee a name, as it is this day.
11 And Thou didst divide the sea before them, so that they went through the midst of the sea on the dry land; and their pursuers Thou didst cast into the depths, as a stone into the mighty waters.
12 Moreover in a pillar of cloud Thou didst lead them by day; and in a pillar of fire by night, to give them light in the way wherein they should go.
13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spokest with them from heaven, and gavest them right ordinances and laws of truth, good statutes and commandments;
14 and madest known unto them Thy holy sabbath, and didst command them commandments, and statutes, and a law, by the hand of Moses Thy servant;
15 and gavest them bread from heaven for their hunger, and broughtest forth water for them out of the rock for their thirst, and didst command them that they should go in to possess the land which Thou hadst lifted up Thy hand to give them.
16 But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their neck, and hearkened not to Thy commandments,
17 and refused to hearken, neither were mindful of Thy wonders that Thou didst among them; but hardened their neck, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage; but Thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger, and plenteous in mercy, and forsookest them not.
18 Yea, when they had made them a molten calf, and said: 'This is thy God that brought thee up out of Egypt, and had wrought great provocations;
19 yet Thou in Thy manifold mercies forsookest them not in the wilderness; the pillar of cloud departed not from over them by day, to lead them in the way; neither the pillar of fire by night, to show them light, and the way wherein they should go.
20 Thou gavest also Thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not Thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst.
21 Yea, forty years didst Thou sustain them in the wilderness, and they lacked nothing; their clothes waxed not old, and their feet swelled not.
22 Moreover Thou gavest them kingdoms and peoples, which Thou didst allot quarter by quarter; so they possessed the land of Sihon, even the land of the king of Heshbon, and the land of Og king of Bashan.
23 Their children also didst Thou multiply as the stars of heaven, and didst bring them into the land, concerning which Thou didst say to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it.
24 So the children went in and possessed the land, and Thou didst subdue before them the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, and gavest them into their hands, with their kings, and the peoples of the land, that they might do with them as they would.
25 And they took fortified cities, and a fat land, and possessed houses full of all good things, cisterns hewn out, vineyards, and oliveyards, and fruit-trees in abundance; so they did eat, and were filled, and became fat, and luxuriated in Thy great goodness.
26 Nevertheless they were disobedient, and rebelled against Thee, and cast Thy law behind their back, and slew Thy prophets that did forewarn them to turn them back unto Thee, and they wrought great provocations.
27 Therefore Thou didst deliver them into the hand of their adversaries, who distressed them; and in the time of their trouble, when they cried unto Thee, Thou heardest from heaven; and according to Thy manifold mercies Thou gavest them saviours who might save them out of the hand of their adversaries.
28 But after they had rest, they did evil again before Thee; therefore didst Thou leave them in the hand of their enemies, so that they had the dominion over them; yet when they returned, and cried unto Thee, many times didst Thou hear from heaven, and deliver them according to Thy mercies;
29 and didst forewarn them, that Thou mightest bring them back unto Thy law; yet they dealt proudly, and hearkened not unto Thy commandments, but sinned against Thine ordinances, which if a man do, he shall live by them, and presented a stubborn shoulder, and hardened their neck, and would not hear.
30 Yet many years didst Thou extend mercy unto them, and didst forewarn them by Thy spirit through Thy prophets; yet would they not give ear; therefore gavest Thou them into the hand of the peoples of the lands.
31 Nevertheless in Thy manifold mercies Thou didst not utterly consume them, nor forsake them; for Thou art a gracious and merciful God.

whilst we see evidence of Tawheed and an understanding of Allah's Mercy, we also see the some of the reasons that they have angered Allah [El Magdoobi Alayhim]!

btw, that is taken from a Jewish translation of Hebrew Scriptures!

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt35b09.htm