Gunfire as standoff continues in Kenya mall

[sister herb]

Kenyan army reinforcements have begun pouring into the area around an upmarket Nairobi shopping mall as operations to end a standoff with al-Shabab rebels continued.

More than 20 hours after fighters from Somalia’s al-Qaeda-linked al-Shabab group stormed the Westgate centre in an attack that killed at least 59 people and wounded 175 more, security officials said they were still trying to kill or capture the remaining gunmen.

Fierce gunfire could be heard coming from inside the Westgate shopping mall early on Sunday, an AFP news agency correspondent at the scene said, adding that two wounded Kenyan soldiers were evacuated from the complex and taken away by ambulance.

A security source confirmed that heavy exchanges of gunfire were taking place.

The Kenyan interior ministry said the upper floors of the four-storey mall had been secured, and that the attackers had been isolated somewhere on the ground floor or in the basement.

An unknown number of hostages were also still trapped inside, officials said during the night.

Kenyan security forces have arrested one of the gunmen who stormed the Westgate complex, the Kenyan presidency said on Twitter.

Al-Shabab told Al Jazeera it carried out the attack in response to Kenya's military operations in Somalia, where African Union troops are battling the armed rebels.

Al-Shabab 'holding ground'

The French government confirmed that two of its citizens were killed in what President Francois Hollande described as a "cowardly attack".

Two Canadians were also killed, including a diplomat, while the United States government reported an undisclosed number of Americans injured.

What led to the al-Shabab attack on Kenyan mall?

The United Nations Security Council condemned the attack "in the strongest possible terms," and reminded Kenya that any response must comply with international human rights law.

On its own Twitter account, al-Shabab said there would be no negotiations with Kenyan officials over the standoff.

"10 hours have passed and the Mujahideen are still strong inside Westgate Mall and still holding their ground. All praise is due to Allah!", the group wrote.

Kenyan troops have been fighting al-Shabab in Somalia, where the anti-government group is seeking to impose Islamic law and has carried out numerous attacks.

Kenya has been hit by a spate of attacks including hand grenades and bombs since it sent troops to southern Somalia in late 2011 to attack al-Shabab bases.

Call for unity

"The border between Kenya and Somalia is very, very porous, and it's very difficult for authorities to control movement across the border," said Al Jazeera's Peter Greste, reporting from Nairobi.




The way we lead our lives in freedom, openness, unity and consideration for each other represents our victory over those who wish us ill

Uhuru Kenyatta, Kenya's president


"There's also a very difficult relationship between Somali communities here and the security services; neither of them trust each other," he said.

In a live television statement late on Saturday, President Uhuru Kenyatta said that the country had "overcome terrorist attacks before" and vowed to "hunt down the perpetrators wherever they run to".

"In fact, we have fought courageously and defeated them within and outside our borders - we will defeat them again," said Kenyatta.

"The way we lead our lives in freedom, openness, unity and consideration for each other represents our victory over those who wish us ill," said the president.

He reiterated the government's readiness to fight aggression domestically as well as externally, and urged Kenyans to "stand together and see this dark moment through" by donating blood, co-operating with authorities and comforting those affected by the day's violence.

Kenyatta added that he himself had lost close relatives in the mass shooting.

Lengthy gun battle

A gun battle broke out inside the shopping centre as police and military forces struggled to evacuate shoppers and apprehend an unknown number of armed men.

A statement issued later by Kenya's Internal Security Minister Mutea Iringo said that the government was "fully in charge" of the situation at the mall.

A witness said the attackers opened fire and executed people after they threw grenades into the building at about midday local time (09:00 GMT).

Unverified witness accounts have indicated that the attackers targeted non-Muslims and foreigners.

The US State Department said Americans were reportedly among the injured in the attack, condemning the "senseless act of violence".

"We have reports of American citizens injured in the attack, and the US embassy is actively reaching out to provide assistance," spokeswoman Marie Harf said without giving further details.


Source:

Al Jazeera and agencies

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Attacking against un-armed civilians? Women and children? They claim to be muslims? They are worse than animals!

 

[Dagless]

Attacking against un-armed civilians? Women and children? They claim to be muslims? They are worse than animals!

They really are the worst kind of scum.
Sadly a lot of the deaths have been Muslim too.

 

[Trumble]

You can only feel desperately sorry not only for the relatives of those killed, but those in Somalia still living under the authority of these lunatics.

 

[Ahmad H]

This news is saddening for the same two reasons anything like this brings: (1) Innocent civilians die and (2) Islam is being tainted again by idiots who do these attacks in its name.

It's getting increasingly harder to defend the truth of Islam by actions because of this large-scale media attention on Islamic militants. But that's an oxymoron, these fools are not even following Islam.

 

[Independent]

These guys are on a Jihad at least they believe they are and belief is all that matters. Morality is subjective so people live by their beliefs

Morality has grey lines and of course it greatly depends whose side you're on. But the deliberate targeting of women and children - not as collateral damage but as the specific target - should be a red line for anyone. The beliefs of these men do not excuse their actions, although they may help to 'explain' them. These men also kill because they enjoy it and it makes them feel important - that's also part of the 'explanation'.

I believe that killing anything is bad unless it is in self defence.

The self defence argument can only go so far. If someone hits me, I hit them back, that's self defence. But these guys are using it as an excuse to hit anyone, anywherel - children, citizens of other countries etc. Again, these are not accidental bystanders - they are the specifically selected target. At this point self defence is an irrelevant excuse. They're just killing anyone. They object to foreign intervention, yet they belong to an organisation full of foreign fighters and funding. They kill because they enjoy it, because scaring people makes them feel important, and because they get paid for it.

It says something about you when you belong to an organisation that Bin Laden rejected for being too extreme:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24306159

 

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum

Imam in my country has already said that these attackers in Kenya are "trash". If they promote something, then it is not islam.

 

[WarriorforMarie]

This news is saddening for the same two reasons anything like this brings: (1) Innocent civilians die and (2) Islam is being tainted again by idiots who do these attacks in its name.

It's getting increasingly harder to defend the truth of Islam by actions because of this large-scale media attention on Islamic militants. But that's an oxymoron, these fools are not even following Islam.

Indeed, I've already gotten into a couple of Facebook flame wars with some fools who mindlessly made comments about Islam and Muslims after these attacks. Where I live in the US there a lot of ignorance with people attributing hostility to all Muslims. I've tried to correct them but they seem unwilling to listen. I've been thinking that maybe this is because my knowledge of Islam is not sufficient to be overwhelming when talking with them so I recently purchased a Quran and I visited a mosque for the first time ever last week!


I think the situation will improve when the current wave of terrorism dies down. If you read "Global Terrorism" by the brilliant professor Leonard Weinberg he points out first and foremost that terrorism is a tactic, not an ideology and that a variety of groups have used terrorism for a variety of political goals. In addition, he has pointed out the existence of "waves" of terrorism. These are periods of time when there is much terrorism based around a particular motivation. In the beginning of the 20th century it was Anarchic and revolutionary forms or terrorism, in the 1950s it was national liberation, in the 1970s it was New Left inspired, and in the current time it is Islamic inspired. The thing is that each of these waves eventually die out, usually through some form of generational exhaustion. When I spoke with Weinberg in person he anticipated that the next wave could either be motivated by environmental concerns or be of some form of far-right/racist like what happened in 2011 in Norway.

 

[Karl]

Are you saying that what these guys did is justifiable? I'm not entirely clear whether you condone it or not.

I don't condone violence. Acts of violence are not justifiable. But I do get sick of the hypocrisy. If your a big state like the USA and go and blow up and terrorise a little state like Iraq, Afghanistan etc. It's all "oh well never mind, support the troops, the locals even had the audacity to fight back and kill a few of ours so we better use drones, why don't they love us? War on terror! Whoops wiped out a wedding party, whoops wiped out a funeral procession and a school was that a hospital? Well they're all living in the 4th century Muslim terrorists anyway".

But why the focus on these guys? Because they're Muslims with a bone to pick with Kenya. If the USA blew up Kenya the catch cry would be "Support the Troops".

 

[Independent]

If your a big state like the USA and go and blow up and terrorise a little state like Iraq, Afghanistan etc. It's all "oh well never mind, support the troops,

This is Kenya. Not so big.

But why the focus on these guys? Because they're Muslims with a bone to pick with Kenya.

They get the focus because they did something spectacular. This isn't fighting, it's playing the media. Presumably they think enough people around the world will like it. Why does everybody keep thinking these guys are media victims? It's what they live for.

 

[Independent]

Terrorism is not good but it is effective as it brings violence to the people and makes them think twice before they meddle in other nations affairs. Fear is political leverage.

As I said, they do it because they believe that there are enough people in the world who will like it and respect them more for it. Which it would seem there are.

Groups like these thrive in conditions of social chaos. They have made an impressive contribution to the destruction of their own country. One of their finest hours in their courageous war was to kill unarmed aid workers during a famine (actually this turned out to be not such a good move for their popularity). They complain about foreign intervention, yet they survive on it themselves. They are an utterly pointless organisation who have achieved nothing, and have no prospect of achieving anything in the future.

 

[faithandpeace]

Kenya sent troops to Somalia so terrorists did some damage in return. The Kenyans were warned but because they are stooges to the British they went and interfered with Somalia. Terrorism is not good but it is effective as it brings violence to the people and makes them think twice before they meddle in other nations affairs. Fear is political leverage.

Assalamu alaikum. If Muslims wish to engage in jihad in defense of Islam, then they should do so in an Islamic manner or it is not a jihad but instead a grave sin. While I am no expert on fiqh in this area, the targeting and killing of innocent civilians is a grave sin in Islam. Every action is to be determined by niyyah. If it is one's niyyah to defend Islam then it is only logical that such defense be done in an Islamic manner or it then becomes unclear what it truly is that they are defending in the first place if they aren't acting Islamically. So even if the results of their actions brought them what they wanted, the methods cannot be said to be Islamic as their behaviors were outside of Islam.

 

[Karl]

Assalamu alaikum. If Muslims wish to engage in jihad in defense of Islam, then they should do so in an Islamic manner or it is not a jihad but instead a grave sin. While I am no expert on fiqh in this area, the targeting and killing of innocent civilians is a grave sin in Islam. Every action is to be determined by niyyah. If it is one's niyyah to defend Islam then it is only logical that such defense be done in an Islamic manner or it then becomes unclear what it truly is that they are defending in the first place if they aren't acting Islamically. So even if the results of their actions brought them what they wanted, the methods cannot be said to be Islamic as their behaviors were outside of Islam.

True ...the terrorists are emotionally damaged that's why they die doing what they do. If you become enraged against the evil enough, you will join it.

 

[observer]

Kenya sent troops to Somalia so terrorists did some damage in return.

Right, but not damage to the Kenyan government or the Kenyan military - they attacked and murdered innocent civilians. This was not an action in the war. The kids and their parents shopping were not soldiers.

Based on your logic of tit-for-tat, now Kenya would be completely justified in sending more troops to Somalia, is that right? When a Palestinian attacks the IDF then Israel, according to your logic, is completely justified in hitting back in whatever way it sees fit, is that correct?

All your logic leads to is an ever-increasing cycle of violence, each party justifying its actions using what the "enemy" did last time as an excuse. It's absolute nonsense. These people aren't avenging some wrong, or teaching a lesson the the Kenyan government: they're murderers.

 

[Karl]

Right, but not damage to the Kenyan government or the Kenyan military - they attacked and murdered innocent civilians. This was not an action in the war. The kids and their parents shopping were not soldiers.

Based on your logic of tit-for-tat, now Kenya would be completely justified in sending more troops to Somalia, is that right? When a Palestinian attacks the IDF then Israel, according to your logic, is completely justified in hitting back in whatever way it sees fit, is that correct?

All your logic leads to is an ever-increasing cycle of violence, each party justifying its actions using what the "enemy" did last time as an excuse. It's absolute nonsense. These people aren't avenging some wrong, or teaching a lesson the the Kenyan government: they're murderers.

---

The Kenyan government can do what ever it wants to, it can send in more troops but there will be more terrorist backlash. BTW do you think the Kenyan troops will only attack militants? Soldiers generally indulge in raping and pillaging and murdering women and children and old men too maybe even some cannibalism.

Israel is hamstrung by "the international community" Israel would dearly love to exterminate the Palestinians. Zealots used to go around trying to wipe out other sects of Jews so you can imagine what they would do to the Palestinians if they had a free hand.

"All your logic leads to is an ever-increasing cycle of violence, each party justifying its actions using what the "enemy" did last time as an excuse. It's absolute nonsense. These people aren't avenging some wrong, or teaching a lesson the the Kenyan government: they're murderers."

This is the way of the world, where are you from Disneyland? Why do you think there is an arms race? Peace is the time they prepare for war. All this Islam phobia, terrorism etc is a red herring, they are like kiddies fighting in a sandbox compared to what is to come.

The crux of the problem is that life is essentially self serving and evil. The level of evil is governed by the life forms intelligence, technology and physical attributes.
That's why the greater Jihad is the struggle with oneself to control this evil within and try and be good.
"Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal." Albert Einstein

 

[faithandpeace]

Is politic in Kenya some reason to kill civilians?

Are you saying that what these guys did is justifiable?

True ...the terrorists are emotionally damaged that's why they die doing what they do. If you become enraged against the evil enough, you will join it.

Can we stop the baiting? I am referring to asking people questions in which certain answers could be considered to be supporting illegal activity. I realize that the moderators have not touched this but I really think it is unwise to essentially be asking people on the IB forums if they support "terrorism." Instead, maybe someone can quote Qur'an and Hadith that define the parameters and appropriateness of war in Islam?

 

[Karl]

Can we stop the baiting? I am referring to asking people questions in which certain answers could be considered to be supporting illegal activity. I realize that the moderators have not touched this but I really think it is unwise to essentially be asking people on the IB forums if they support "terrorism." Instead, maybe someone can quote Qur'an and Hadith that define the parameters and appropriateness of war in Islam?

I think you are over reacting, we are just discussing a few things. I suppose I have strayed off topic but I was only answering questions.

 

[faithandpeace]

I don't know that my statements would be considered "reactive" but I think in today's society a little "paranoia" is a good thing. I get the general gist of what everyone is saying and I think you all understand my comments as well. These forums are public, however, and if we want to be a united ummah I feel we should use some common sense in choosing our words carefully when it comes to certain topics. I'm not a moderator/admin here and frankly I really don't care what links to videos or essays people put here because reading articles and watching videos are simply nothing more than accessing third-party media.

My understanding of Islam, however, is that sins are to be kept private. It is "don't ask don't tell." We don't know who here drinks alcohol in their own homes, who watches pornography, or who commits adultery. A Muslim should not make his or her sins public or ask other Muslims whether or not they are sinning. Likewise, the intentional injuring and killing of non-combatant civilians in war is illegal in Islamic fiqh and is a grave sin and I don't think non-Muslims or Muslims should be asking each other if they support these kinds of sins and make it public. If you think the injuring or killing of civilian non-combatants is permissible in Islam and not a sin, then please post your views and back it up with Qur'an and Hadith and I won't complain. Then those quotations can be discussed and debated to see if the correct understanding is there and whether or not it is applicable to the situation in Kenya/Somalia.

I strongly believe in defending the ummah whether it be what is happening in Kenya, Somalia, Syria, Egypt, Palestine, or elsewhere. But we must defend our ummah Islamically or then our niyyah is not in the right place. If we are not defending Islam Islamically then what we are doing is not Islam at all. Depending on the situation, defnese can be physical with guns blazing or it can be with the tongue (or the pen or the keyboard) or it can be changing our own hearts by turning closer to Allah (swt) and each situation requires an appropriate response, typically a moderate response, and not to any extreme. I've never lived in Kenya or Somalia so I can't say I know what it is like for those who are victimized by what is going on there. My heart goes out to our brothers and sisters in our ummah who are suffering as well as innocent brothers and sisters in humanity who are suffering. Sadly some of these discussions on these threads, however, amount to merely being "keyboard jihadis" without really coming to any type of serious Islamic understanding on anything.

 

[Independent]

I am referring to asking people questions in which certain answers could be considered to be supporting illegal activity. I realize that the moderators have not touched this but I really think it is unwise to essentially be asking people on the IB forums if they support "terrorism

I totally support the stance of IB on this issue. However, the truth is that many people come so close to endorsing violence/terrorism that it's hardly surprising they get asked the question. In the end, whether they actually do or don't hardly matters - since their choice of language implies so strongly that they do - and that's what the reader takes out of it. The 'self defence' excuse is interpreted so freely that basically it's an excuse to do anything at all. Here in Kenya, they are killing any foreigners at all, in a plainly racist act.

What's more, because of the unique Muslim concept of the 'umma', people take any action against any Muslim anywhere as a personal attack - and they can therefore choose to justify their own violent act as self defence, if that's what they want. Muslim media and websites collate incidents all over the world and run them together, to create an impression of a persistent and coherent 'war against Islam'.

All religions have texts and ideas that can be used to justify war and violence, if that's what people want to find. But really this is an excuse, this choice always lies within the individual - no matter how they may try to justify it by their religion or other ideology. They weren't conscripts, they went out of their way to find violence.

 

[faithandpeace]

Defense includes both self defense and defense of a third party. So as a united ummah it is our responsibility to look after one another. If I witness a Muslim being injured or killed it is my responsibility to do what I can to stop it. It doesn't matter if it involves brothers, sisters, or children although it is probably best if the brothers do more of the defending to make it easier on us sisters. In Islam it is not only a right to defend but a religious duty to do so if needed but the rules of sharia apply. Targeting people going shopping is not defense. I would also say that Muslims should be prepared to defend non-Muslims as well against oppression and injustice as that would then be a form of da'wa by setting the good example of what Islam is about. Imagine the kind of da'wa it would have brought to the hostages if the kidnappers tried to escort a bearded brother or a hijabi out to safety and instead the Muslim brother or sister said, "No. What you are doing is wrong and against Islam and you can instead escort a Jew or a Christian out in my place. I'm staying behind with the rest of the hostages until you see the errors of your ways insha'Allah." That would be a tough thing for many people to do but we need to ask ourselves how seriously we are taking our deen and if we are living for the dunya or the akhirah. Insha'Allah I do hope none of us here (Muslims or non-Muslims) are ever in such a trying and tragic situation.

 

[observer]

And now we're getting the perfect illustration of violence leading to more violence.

Muslim cleric shot dead in Kenya: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-24395723

And in response to that, muslims riot and burn down a church: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-24398548

I guess the mall gunmen got what they wanted.