History of Christianity

Europe, and the world in general, has always had a cancer of anti-semitism with it. There is no sugar coating that part of the past. In a large degree we are still dealing with it, by "we" I mean Western society in general.

Ain't that the truth. I recently did some searching on key events on history for the month of April. In that one month alone, it is amazing how many different countries have passed laws outlawing things connected with Jews. It's outrageous.
 
EricH said:
Are you saying that Constantine was more influential than Christ?

Did God create Constantine for any purpose?

In the spirit of searching

Eric

YES. Do you think any heretic of an established religion is taken seriously? (Jesus was assumed an heretic by the Jews).

Keltoi said:
Not quite accurate. I'm sure those who practiced Judaism during the time in question did consider Christianity to be a "heretical sect of Judaism", but the numbers of people converting to Christianity was growing at an alarming pace to the Roman Emperors. Constantine was already faced with Christianity before his conversion, it wasn't like woke up one morning and decided he wanted to be one of those small insignificant Christians that nobody had heard of. Christianity was a growing force in the world with or without Constantine.

Jews indeed consider Christians as heretics, this is a fact. Constantine facilitated the rapid spread of Christianity in Europe. Like you said in another thread, when a Roman emperor says "jump," we say "how high." Paganism was the major religion in the empire for centuries, so I dont think the Romans alone would open their arms to Christianity that easilly, especially since the Roman emperors were known to be more tolerable to the Jews than this "heretical sect." What Jesus presented was something radical, and it was Constantine who shoved it down the throat of his people. Constantine attributed his absolute power via the doctrine of "divine rights," and made Christianity the OFFICIAL religion of the empire. His legislated laws that forbid conversion to Judaism (despite the fact that Jesus was a Jew himself), outlaws Jewish congregation, and other anti-Semitic policies. Constantine personally used the state's money for the establishment of churches and Christian places of worship. Eminent Yale historian Ramsay MacMullen also argues that Constantine's son banned pagan practices in 341 and shut temples in 356. When Theodosius came to power, he imprisoned,tortured, and executed pagans, who were following a religion that was practiced for generations.

If you disagree with me, I invite you to make necessary corrections.
 
Keltoi said:
Europe, and the world in general, has always had a cancer of anti-semitism with it. There is no sugar coating that part of the past. In a large degree we are still dealing with it, by "we" I mean Western society in general.

I agree. Looks like Christianity followed their oppressor's footsteps in terms o f their treatment of Jews. Funny thing is that the Bible comprises of the Old Testament and also the fact that Jesus was himself a Jew.
 
snakelegs said:
keltoi,
i am not sure. from what he told me, i think it is broader than constantine - like maybe it is a chronicle of christian anti-semitism from constantine onward. it should be a pretty fat book.

The difference is that Constantine justified it from a religious perspective.
 
It should also be noted that the founder of Christianity was Paul, who deviated from the teachings of Isa (Jesus). Isa and the Apostles were all Jewish and monotheistic in their beliefs. I used the term Jewish for the sake of our Christian readers so as not to confuse them.
 
Paul was not the founder of Christianity. He was but one of many who reformed it.
 
It should also be noted that the founder of Christianity was Paul, who deviated from the teachings of Isa (Jesus). Isa and the Apostles were all Jewish and monotheistic in their beliefs. I used the term Jewish for the sake of our Christian readers so as not to confuse them.


Please. This nonsense is getting old. Yes, Paul was the author of half of what we have in the New Testament, but that doesn't mean that he created Christianty as if he invented it from his own mind.


If one reads 2 Peter, one finds that Paul was approved by other New Testament authors: "Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:15-16)


The book of Acts is a history of the Acts of the apostles and of the beginnings of the early church. In it we find that the earliest ministries of the church were led by Peter and James. Paul was submissive to the council of the church in Jerusalem. When questions arose about what Paul was teaching, he returned to meet with the apostles to discuss it with them and they affirmed what Paul was doing.

Acts 15
1Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." 2This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.

6The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: "Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

[And they put the following decision in a letter to all Gentiles:]
28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
As you can see the rest of what Paul preached was not challenged.

Ideas like the resurrection and Jesus as divine don't begin with Paul. In fact, when we first meet Paul is is persecuting the Church specifically because the Church was already proclaiming these things:
Acts 7
55Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56"Look," he said, "I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."
57At this they [Jewish priests] covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul.

Acts 8:1 And Saul [also known as Paul] was there, giving approval to his death.


The first sermon of the church was given not by Paul, but by Peter, one of Jesus closest followers. So close was Peter to Jesus you might as well consider it a hadith:
Acts 2
22"Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

36"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."


So much was the early church known for this teaching that "The priests and the captain of the temple guard and the Sadducees came up to Peter and John while they were speaking to the people. They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people and proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead. They seized Peter and John, and because it was evening, they put them in jail until the next day." (Acts 4:1-3)


Jesus' closest disciple, John, is the one who wrote a whole Gospel sharing the good news of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. John is the one who begins his Gospel with a declaration that "In the beginning was the Word [whom he later identifies as Jesus], and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1) In my opinion it could not be any clearer. I guess you see it otherwise. That's OK. We can debate what the intepretation of some of these passages mean. But to say that Paul was the founder of Christianity. that just isn't true. Look at the whole reason John wrote his Gospel, not to please Paul. Not to corroberate what Paul was preaching. But for one simple reason, a reason he stated right in the Gospel itself: "these [the signs and stories about Jesus that he tells in his Gospel account] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." (John 20:31) And when is this statement of purpose given, immediately after John reports on the climatic confession of Thomas as to who Jesus is. On meeting the resurrected Jesus, Thomas greets Jesus: "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28).

Indeed, it wasn't Paul who first called Jesus God, it was Thomas, one of those who had spent three years walking, talking and learning from Jesus. And the Church, the whole of the Church, not just Paul, has been calling Jesus that ever since. So, let's have none of this nonesense that Paul invented Christianity; it just isn't true.
 
YES. Do you think any heretic of an established religion is taken seriously? (Jesus was assumed an heretic by the Jews).



Jews indeed consider Christians as heretics, this is a fact. Constantine facilitated the rapid spread of Christianity in Europe. Like you said in another thread, when a Roman emperor says "jump," we say "how high." Paganism was the major religion in the empire for centuries, so I dont think the Romans alone would open their arms to Christianity that easilly, especially since the Roman emperors were known to be more tolerable to the Jews than this "heretical sect." What Jesus presented was something radical, and it was Constantine who shoved it down the throat of his people. Constantine attributed his absolute power via the doctrine of "divine rights," and made Christianity the OFFICIAL religion of the empire. His legislated laws that forbid conversion to Judaism (despite the fact that Jesus was a Jew himself), outlaws Jewish congregation, and other anti-Semitic policies. Constantine personally used the state's money for the establishment of churches and Christian places of worship. Eminent Yale historian Ramsay MacMullen also argues that Constantine's son banned pagan practices in 341 and shut temples in 356. When Theodosius came to power, he imprisoned,tortured, and executed pagans, who were following a religion that was practiced for generations.

If you disagree with me, I invite you to make necessary corrections.

In 311 A.D., Emperor Galerius and his co-emperors, Constantine and Licinius, signed the Edict of Toleration, which granted the freedom of worship to all religions, including Christianity. The Edict of Toleration led to the Edict of Milan in 313, which specifically described Christianity as a legal and lawful religion.

I must correct you on one point, Constantine did not make Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire. That happened in 380 under Emperor Theodosius. It would also be incorrect to assume that Christianity was some small unheard of sect. The Roman Empire had been dealing with the growing numbers of Christians for many years. Intitially they tried to persecute them out of existence, but that only seemed to increase the number of Christians. Constantine's mother, St. Helen, was a Christian when Constantine was born. The majority of the empire were still sun worshipers of Apollo or Mithra, etc, but Christianity was already a fairly large minority within the empire.
 
I agree. Looks like Christianity followed their oppressor's footsteps in terms o f their treatment of Jews. Funny thing is that the Bible comprises of the Old Testament and also the fact that Jesus was himself a Jew.

That the bible contains the Old Testament and that Christians then did what they did to Jews, is actually kind of ironic.

The Old Testament tells many stories of the Jews as "gods chosen people" whiping out neighbouring tribes. It even has a story of genocide of the entire human race done by God, leaving his chosen few to live (pre jew though).

Perhaps it is the old testament bible stories that gave the anti-semites their ideas, only they reversed it?
 
some more about the book i mentioned earlier:
"constantine's sword: the church and the jews" by james carroll.
it came yesterday and i have just started it (as you would expect from the title, it is fat).
it looks to be very good. it is not a dry history at all. it is a history but it seems also to be a soul searching and a philosophical enquiry. the authour is a believing catholic. i don't think it is going to be just a tale of guilt etc., but that it goes much deeper and he raises many questions.
more than 3 decades ago i read a book called "after aushwitz" by richard rubenstein, which also raised many philosophical and theological questions. this looks to be a sort of a christian version of that book, but much more than that.
anyway, it looks promising and some might want to check it out.
the holocaust has always interested me in terms of what does it mean? does it mean anything? what can we learn? what is the nature of evil? what potentials lie in all of us?etc. etc. (i am a person who is very fond of questions - much more so than answers).
 

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