Hitler in Christianity

[Sephiroth]

true mule, but then again christians believe in what their monks and rabbi's write not the true injeel/bible

Iustification Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Sola Scriptura, Solo Christo, Soli Deo Gloria

By His Grace, by my faith, based on scripture alone, through Christ alone, and only to the Glory of God, I am justified.

To quote what one of my monks has written, that I earnestly believe, "Let every man recognize what he is, and be certain that we are all equally priests, that is, we have the same power in the word and in any sacrament whatsoever." - Martin Luther

 

[Sephiroth]

Hitler wasn't neccessarily Christian, but on the other hand he quoted a lot of the works of Martin Luther in support - because Martin Luther was no different in his views, and would have perpetrated a holocaust had he the chance.

Hitler was raised Catholic, and the only reference I have ever seen to Luther from him was in Mein Kampf where he cited him as a great reformer and evidence of German superiority. As for Luther himself, he wasn't perfect, only one person ever has been so, but he wouldn't have perpetrated a holocaust, and yes he did have the chance. He had the ear and the purse of several German princes and those princes did go to war over his doctrine with both papists and heretics. He didn't, however, stir them to pogroms.

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

true mule, but then again christians believe in what their monks and rabbi's write not the true injeel/bible

Groß, christians don't have rabbis!

Regardless, outside of ****ing people to eternal hellfire (which the average person isn't sure whether this is Jesus or Satan doing this), most christians don't think of "Jesus" killing people.

 

[mule]

Abdalla, What do you regard as the true bible? Where is this bible?

 

[root]

Regardless, outside of ****ing people to eternal hellfire (which the average person isn't sure whether this is Jesus or Satan doing this), most christians don't think of "Jesus" killing people.

That is an interesting point. An example would be "Natural Disasters", is this God's work or is it "Natural Nature". How do you account for this, science or faith? Recently the news has indicate Yellowstone as an active "Super Volcano" that will destroy most of the US if fully errupted, would this be greeted as "God's punishment on the US" or as a simple natural disaster. When you look at all the disasters the earth suffers (naturally), one could argue that if the Earth was created by intelligent design, it don't work too good does it.

 

[yoshiyahu]

true mule, but then again christians believe in what their monks and rabbi's write not the true injeel/bible

1) There is no such thing as a Christian Rabbi.

2) Such comments don't help the discussion, they only serve as flamebait. I could point at Muslims and say the same thing.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Thank you Sephiroth. I appreciate your taking the time to write me the response.

I personally don't believe that it does, unless they would have truly repented from their actions. Christianity preaches the forgiveness of sin, but to obtain it you must repent.

After readin your response, i'm still confused over one issue.

There is repentence, and there is sacrifice. Which sins did the sacrifice of Christ remove? Which ones are to be repented for? Is a Christian sinless? Will a true Christian believer be punished for their sins, or didn't Christ remove them?

I, as a Lutheran, believe in the doctrine of iustification solo fide, but the Crusaders, as Catholics, and Hitler, who was baptised Catholic and grew up in Catholic Austria, as well has a little more than half of Germany, did not. Catholicism preaches salvation on the basis of both faith and works.

okay, thanks for pointing out the distinction.

What is "justification sole fide"?

Thank you for your patience in reading this exceptionally long piece.

Thank you for writing it. I enjoyed it very much.

 

[Sephiroth]

Christians see the sacrifice of Christ as the opening of a door, that when a sinner would walk through it (i.e. accept the covenant), all his sins would be forgiven. In this way, if a man has led a wicked life, but later comes to realise the truth of God's word, if he repents and accepts Christ, then his sins are forgiven. Now there is some disagreement between Christian sects whether there might still be punishment for the sinner who has accepted Christ's covenant, or not. Some would say that though a father may forgive his children, he would still punish them. Catholics are basically of the opinion that accepting Christ will save you from an eternity in hell, but if your deeds are grave, you may have to go to purgatory, a place where you are punished and cleansed of worldly sins and flaws. Catholics also believe that even those who are of other religions, who do not accept Christ may go to heaven through their works, if they are good. If I remember correctly, I think this is called "Baptism through works." Baptism is a sacrament (way to Grace), some have called it the Christian version of circumcision, which is somewhat accurate, but I won't get into the problems with that assessment here. The main point remains that some believe even unbelievers can be saved by their works. Others believe that there is only an eternal hell and that accepting Christ saves you from it, but if you continue in sin, then it is evidence that you had not really obtained God's grace through your faith, and that your acceptance was just lipservice and not really valid, and therefore the grave sinner would still go to hell. Still others believe that accepting Christ saves you from hell regardless of your actions, though I don't quite understand the logic of that position. Others still believe that God, because he is omniscient, chose those who would go to heaven at the begining of time and that nothing you can do would change it, but that those who are elect (chosen) would act according to his laws and have great faith: the injunction of these sects is to act as if you are elect, although you may not be. I personally believe that accepting Christ saves you from hell, but that the person who continues in sin gives evidence that he has not truly accepted the covenant. Faith obtains grace, grace sustains faith, and leads to good deeds. One is not made perfect by God, but better, and when he falters, he must repent and pray and let the Lord increase his righteousness.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Thanks for your post, Sephiroth!

Christians see the sacrifice of Christ as the opening of a door, that when a sinner would walk through it (i.e. accept the covenant), all his sins would be forgiven.

All his previous sins? So for the billions of Christians who are not converts, none of their sins are forgiven?

The son of God was crucified only to remove the sins of a Christian, prior to his acceptance of Chrsitanity?


So you are telling me that if I accept Christ as my saviour, the sins that I have done are removed, but ALL the remaining sins I commit in my life remain? And my God was crucified for this? I haven't committed any major sins. Accepting Christ as my saviour would make no difference!

In this way, if a man has led a wicked life, but later comes to realise the truth of God's word, if he repents and accepts Christ, then his sins are forgiven.

That is no different from Islam. Once someone becomes a muslim, and he repents for his past sins, he is forgiven. Why does a God have to be crucified for such a small and simple matter?!

The confusion lies over two issues for our sins:
What needs to be repented for?

What needed the sacrifice of Christ?

Now there is some disagreement between Christian sects whether there might still be punishment for the sinner who has accepted Christ's covenant, or not. Some would say that though a father may forgive his children, he would still punish them.

So what on earth did we get out of killing our God?

Catholics are basically of the opinion that accepting Christ will save you from an eternity in hell, but if your deeds are grave, you may have to go to purgatory, a place where you are punished and cleansed of worldly sins and flaws. Catholics also believe that even those who are of other religions, who do not accept Christ may go to heaven through their works, if they are good.

So why the need for God to die for us? Crucifixion is no joke. It is not some minor thing. Getting your flesh nailed to a cross is excruciatingly painful.

And according to Christianity, this wasn't any human getting crucified. This was GOD HIMSELF! WHY?!?

Such a huge event! The crucifixion of the creator of the universe! And it all happened for....nothing?? We never even needed it? We can keep repenting and doing good deeds and still get to heaven?

My Goodness.

Others believe that there is only an eternal hell and that accepting Christ saves you from it, but if you continue in sin, then it is evidence that you had not really obtained God's grace through your faith, and that your acceptance was just lipservice and not really valid, and therefore the grave sinner would still go to hell.

So this group is saying that
-believe in Christ and previous sins are forgiven (no different from a repenter whose repentence is accepted)
-any sins that follow will still be punished even though your God supposedly took all your sins

Still others believe that accepting Christ saves you from hell regardless of your actions, though I don't quite understand the logic of that position.

I'm with you on that one! Perhaps there is no logic to it!

So this position is saying that Hitler and the Crusaders get a free ticket to heaven.

btw, would this position be the one held by southern batptists?
Because in my past discussions, this is the one they held.

Others still believe that God, because he is omniscient, chose those who would go to heaven at the begining of time and that nothing you can do would change it, but that those who are elect (chosen) would act according to his laws and have great faith: the injunction of these sects is to act as if you are elect, although you may not be.

interesting. So according to this position, God getting himself crucified by his creation was for nothing since he had already determined which ones would go to heaven.

I personally believe that accepting Christ saves you from hell, but that the person who continues in sin gives evidence that he has not truly accepted the covenant.

So which sins of yours did Christ take? The ones you made prior to becoming a Christian, or the ones you will make in the future?
Why did God die for us if we still have to repent for our sins and do good deeds? What difference did it make?

One is not made perfect by God, but better, and when he falters, he must repent and pray and let the Lord increase his righteousness.

Compare this with the Islamic position that just says, do righteous deeds and repent for your sins and you will earn paradise. Very simple. Why the need for Christ's death?


See, that is what it all boils down to. I can't understand the Christian doctrine of salvation because no Christian has ever been able to explain to me one point:

Why did Christ die for us?
Which of our sins did he remove?


Because if we still have to repent and do the good deeds we were doing all along before his death, why the need for God to enter the flesh of a man and get crucified on a cross?

I really appreciate your detailed response and your analysis of the different Christian groups.

Thank you.

 

[Burninglight]

Hitler was what is known as a wolf in sheeps clothing to the masses. He said, the bigger the lie the apt people are to believe!
:raging:

 

[Ramadhan]

Hitler was what is known as a wolf in sheeps clothing to the masses. He said, the bigger the lie the apt people are to believe!

Ah now I know why you keep on making false statements about Islam.

 

[Burninglight]

My point root, is not a historical point but rather a theological one.

That Hitler serves as an example of a criminal whom Christian theology promises paradise because of his acceptance of Christ as his Lord and Saviour.

This demonstrates that the doctrine of salvation solely on the basis of faith is flawed. Islam promises salvation on the basis of faith and good deeds.

So that was you point? Well, you don't understand Christianity. Salvation by God's grace through our faith is not flawed. It is the only way one can be saved from Hell. When someone has faith it is evidenced by good deeds. As James said: "faith without works is dead" It is possible to have or do good deeds and not have faith, but it is not possible to have faith and God's grace operating in ones live without good works.

It is written in Scripture the soul that sins will die. It is also written that whatsoever a man sows, so shall he reap, and that God is not mocked. If a wicked man truly repents from being a mass murder and turns to Christ he will be saved. A Christian can know now whether he has eternal life. Abu Bakr said to the effect, he would NOT trust the Makr of Allah if he had one foot in paradise and one on earth. I know as a Christian where I stand with God because of (Jesus) God's gift to me. Muslims don't know where they stand with Allah from day to day. Is this true or not?

If you died right now, do you know if you'll go to paradise? I already know my eternal destiny. My God is not so unjust to not give me an opportunity to know now where I am going to spend eternity. He tells me I can be sure if I meet Him on His terms here and now! I cannot speak for Hitler, but Muslims leaders shook hands with him too. The Catholic Church, imo, doesn't do Christianity justice