How is the test of life fair?

[john.bob]

I am not a Muslim, but I am very interested in it. I hope by getting an answer to this question I will take a step closer to maybe accepting Islam.

I understand that Allah gives everyone a chance to live out our lives on earth to test us, even though he knows full well how everyone will do. This is similar to how a legal system allows a convicted criminal to make an appeal in his defense even though everything may be stacked against. I.e. all the evidence. In the day of judgment Allah will use our lives as evidence against us to prove if we did good or bad. To be just Allah allowed us all to live our lives so Allah doesn't have to say to us on the day of judgement "I knew what you would've done if i gave you a life so you go to hell or heaven,etc."

Instead Allah can say "you had your chance and you failed to prove yourself etc."So suppose we have two people both born in say a Christian family and let's say one is very devout to his religion and the other is more casual and doesn't care much, he just happened to have Christian parents. Like your typical teen they go through school not to concerned yet about religion and reach say the age of 20. Still very young and focused on their sorting their future lives not too serious about religion; as most people are in the west at this age.

Now suppose the less religious person suddenly dies due to an accident, very probable and has occurred to many people in the world. The devout religious person continues his life and eventually converts to Islam at say 35, which he practices until death.

The question is therefore, is it unfair that the first person who died early when he was still developing and didn't get a chance to reach full maturity or reach a standard livelihood to be able to pursue say religion? Even if would have remained say a disbeliever till death, wasn't letting him live on earth their to prove he would have died a disbeliever and to avoid having to say "I knew you would have lived to die a disbeliever anyway".The first person who died can now argue that if I had lived to the same age as person 2 I might have become a Muslim. If Allah was simply going to say to him " I knew you would have lived to die a disbeliever anyway" than why did Allah give him a life on in the first place.

I understand that Allah has said in the Quran that everyone at some point their lives will be introduced or exposed to Islam. But I feel many young people who do are so caught up with problems in their lives and future that they may miss the opportunity to take it seriously. Especially as in this example they may die very young, ignorant of religion having lived a life focused on worldly pleasure. Many Muslim convert's are like this early on and in later life realise they should submit to god and may come across Islam in their search.

Similarly, why does Allah bring children to this world and many die as children/ babies; which we all know implies that they will enter paradise as they were sinless. What is the point of beinging them to this world if Allah never tested them and simply took their lives and gave them automatic paradise. If I had a choice to whether live long and target a high level in paradise (by enduring hardships and tests) or die young and be guranteed paradise regardless of what level I would be in; I would choose to die young; as this would gurantee paradise.

I'm not attacking islam I just want this issue cleared up and would appreciate a kind response from someone who might have the answer.

Thank You

 

[SintoDinto]

as for the issue of predestination, it is a complicated issue addressed by scholars, but as i understand it, God knows because he is outside the bounds of time. or, in the ashari theology, it is like a child who is on his father's shoulders, asking him to carry him up the mountain, or down the mountain, or across the field. likewise, you will the act, but God creates it. in traditionalist theology, dua (supplication) can stop one from going to hell, and i personally believe, like many who are scholars, if one did not know properly about islam, or had something blocking him from accepting islam, such as someone living in the amazon or in a small town or countryside in japan, etc. where there are no muslims, or if one only hears bad thingsabout them, they are in a separate category of people who will be tested after his world. as for those who die as children or babies, it may be part of their families qadr (divine decree) because it benefits them in some unseen way or prevents some greater evil or perhaps the baby going to heaven is a mercy for the child. read the story of khidr and musa (moses, AS) in surat al kahf (chapter 18, the cave): verses 60-82 https://quran.com/18

 

[john.bob]

Firstly, Thank you for a quick answer

Secondly, I have never heard about Allah testing people separately after this life and specifically individuals who were exposed to islam but were to naieve to accept it die to being distracted by worldly issues. Please can you show me a authentic source

Thirdly, many would see that a child dying and being granted paradise as unfair simply because they didn't have any hardship or test but were given automatic paradise. I would rather be guaranteed paradise then have to gamble on taking life's test to earn paradise. The same can be said from the babies point of view. How can God justify his action here; if he truly is Just

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you john.bob; and welcome to the forum;

How can God justify his action here; if he truly is Just

People strive to become like the God they worship; if you believe that God is a just God, then you should also strive to become the best example of justice yourself. If people believe that God is a God of vengeance and retribution, then they become the God they worship.

Allah has 99 names or characteristics, you cannot single out one topic like justice, Allah is so much more. His first name is - The Beneficent He who wills goodness and mercy for all His creatures, he is peace, justice righteous, a God of Love,and the God who forgives is mentioned three times. Allah personifies all his names in the greatest good way possible. Here is the link -

https://99namesofallah.name/

In the spirit of searching for the greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

 

[SidratulMuntah]

Very nice to hear from you that you are interested in Islam and
perhaps to become a Muslim. May Allah show you the truth. Ameen!

So, yes, life on earth is a test for the hereafter. And yes, he knows,
how the result of the test will be for anyone. But the test is not for
Allah. The test is for us. It's an evidence for us. Allah could put us
into hell or paradise without testing. But how is that just? Many would complain
and say: why do I have to go to hell, why have I deserved that? But that we
live is our evidence. People live the life and the inhabitants of hell
will know exactly, why they are in hell. They will know, that they deserved
it and no one will complain about Allah's justice.

Allah told us, that after he created Adam, he created all the other souls.
They jumped out of the spine of Adam. We know, that Allah wanted to set
a vicegerald on earth. He wanted Man for that. So he asked the clouds, the mountains,
the earth and us, if we want to become vicegeralds on earth.
All except us refused because they knew they could not bear that burden.
But we all in our arrogance we all did agree to be born on earth as
a human and to get tested with the chance of paradise. Even you and me.

You will say now: no, no one did ask me, I don't remember.
Yes, right, even me, I don't remember. No one does. Allah whiped out that
memory from us, bcz of the test. But in the hereafter we all will remember.

It's like in school. In a test you are not allowed to use the school books.
But as soon as the test is over, you can go home and compare all.

Allah fixed out moment of death already in advance. One earlier, one later.
It is not necessarily an disadvantage to die early of an advantage to
get very old. The one who gets very old gets long time to repent or to collect
lots of good deeds. A person, who died young, maybe did already collect enough
goof deeds. He can't unigene improve himself. As you said, ab young person below
puberty not guilty for his/her sins. Why that child or baby was born although Allah
Knew, it still die early. But I told you. An humans agreed to be born as a
human on earth. And those people will be rewarded.

 

[*charisma*]

Hello [MENTION=43967]john.bob[/MENTION],

Welcome to the forum and thanks for your question.

Firstly, we must understand that Allah is the best of judges, and the MOST just, more just than you, I, or any of His creations could ever be. He is also the MOST merciful. Who's to say that if a person who did not attain faith or did not know of Islam would not be judged according by that fact. We must leave the judging to Allah because only He knows every event and every action done by each person. I also want to mention that people become Muslims regardless of age, so maturity is really relative to each individual. Secondly, if a person truly has not heard of Islam and died, then Allah will give him a separate test/judgement in the afterlife.

In regards to babies, Allah promised us in the Quran:

And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,
Who, when disaster strikes them, say, "Indeed we belong to Allah, and indeed to Him we will return."
Those are the ones upon whom are blessings from their Lord and mercy. And it is those who are the [rightly] guided.​

[Quran 2:155-2:157]

If a child dies, it is a test for the parents. The children will also intercede for their parents on the day of judgement.

 

[Ümit]

İ believe we are talking about the people of the wall here. There was a special Arabic word for it...but İ forgot.
They are a group of people who have equally good deeds and bad deeds...exactly balanced out to each other. They did not deserve Paradise but neither did they deserve hell yet....babies small children and mentally disabled people will also be part of this group.
They will be on a high wall between Heaven and Hell...they will see both...and beg Allah to be let into Heaven.
After everyone has entered Heaven or Hell....Allah will look at the people of the wall...He will forgive them because of His mercy....and they would finally be allowed to enter Paradise as the last people.

 

[SintoDinto]

İ believe we are talking about the people of the wall here. There was a special Arabic word for it...but İ forgot.
They are a group of people who have equally good deeds and bad deeds...exactly balanced out to each other. They did not deserve Paradise but neither did they deserve hell yet....babies small children and mentally disabled people will also be part of this group.
They will be on a high wall between Heaven and Hell...they will see both...and beg Allah to be let into Heaven.
After everyone has entered Heaven or Hell....Allah will look at the people of the wall...He will forgive them because of His mercy....and they would finally be allowed to enter Paradise as the last people.

that would be known as the heights, or Al Araf, brother

 

[john.bob]

Thank you [MENTION=43972]SidratulMuntah[/MENTION] for your informative answer. I agree that Judgement should be left to god and with everything you pointed out, however in the Quran god makes it clear that only believers enter paradise or individuals in very specific conditions such as tribal groups, etc. In the case I described we are talking about the average young men you can find in most western society. Some (not all) are very naieve pehaps due to their upbringing, social problems, etc. are not to keen to take religion seriously. if they died despite being exposed to Islam (even in detail), should go to hell according to what has been revealed if they were to die in that state. However, I know many muslim converts who accepted islam very late in their life. e.g. 40 and were very ignorant at a young age. Now many of them are very dedicated worshippers. I feel that had they died younger they would be destined for hellfire. Now, if im correct the younger men I mentioned could now argue why did he get to live till he accepted islam and I died before i was even able prove what I would've done had i lived that long.

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[MENTION=282]*charisma*[/MENTION] thank you for your informed response. So we are correct to assume that the individual who when younger was say distracted by worldly pleasure is exposed to islam, but chooses to ignore the warning and dies like this, could possibly go to paradise. If so I would appreciate an authentice source for this, thank you.

Also, I have never heard of a seperate test in the hearafter for individuals such as the ones I described in my question, can you cite a quote from the quran for this thank you again.

furthermore, can the child intercede for parents if they are disbelievers and save them from hell. if not then why did the child die? is it to give the child free access to paradise? if so how is that fair?

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Since as individuals we asked allah to test us in this world, is it not unfair that some childrens and babies die without getting a chance to prove themselves.

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Since as individuals we asked allah to test us in this world, is it not unfair that some childrens and babies die without getting a chance to prove themselves.

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Since as individuals we asked allah to test us in this world, is it not unfair that some childrens and babies die without getting a chance to prove themselves.

 

[eesa the kiwi]

Not going to comment on the thread at hand just want to say for you to have a look at this site www.islamreligion.com they have a bunch of good articles about Islam and a live chat q&a for you to ask questions

InshaAllah you'll find it beneficial in your search for truth

 

[*charisma*]

@*charisma* thank you for your informed response. So we are correct to assume that the individual who when younger was say distracted by worldly pleasure is exposed to islam, but chooses to ignore the warning and dies like this, could possibly go to paradise. If so I would appreciate an authentice source for this, thank you.

This assumption is incorrect. If a person chooses to reject Islam when the message was given, and instead chooses worldly pleasures, then he is a disbeliever. If he however has never come across the message of Islam, then this is a different matter. Because just as you would identify being Christian, or Atheist, or whatever, it means you have put thought into being identified in this way, so in essence you made your choice of faith as well as rejected other faiths. I think asking questions about where we came from and why we are here are innate questions we ask ourselves at some point in our lives despite the distractions of this world. I don't necessarily believe that anyone who has reached the age of 10 even not to have inquired or reflected about faith and the world around them. But like I said, NO ONE knows the fate of an individual except for Allah, so I could say this and that, but in the end I won't fully know because I'm not the judge of someone's life.

“And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning)” [17:15]

A person who has never heard of Islam or the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and who has never heard the message in its correct and true form, will not be punished by Allaah if he dies in a state of kufr (disbelief). If it were asked what his fate will be, the answer will be that Allaah will test him on the Day of Resurrection: if he obeys, he will enter Paradise and if he disobeys he will enter Hell. The evidence (daleel) for this is the hadeeth of al-Aswad ibn Saree’, who reported that the Prophet of Allaah SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “There are four (who will protest) to Allaah on the Day of Resurrection: the deaf man who never heard anything, the insane man, the very old man, and the man who died during the fatrah (the interval between the time of ‘Eesaa (Jesus, upon whom be peace) and the time of Muhammad SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)). The deaf man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I never heard anything.’ The insane man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but the children ran after me and threw stones at me.’ The very old man will say, ‘O Lord, Islam came but I did not understand anything.’ The man who died during the fatrah will say, ‘O Lord, no Messenger from You came to me.’ He will accept their promises of obedience, then word will be sent to them to enter the Fire. By the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, if they enter it, it will be cool and safe for them.”

furthermore, can the child intercede for parents if they are disbelievers and save them from hell. if not then why did the child die? is it to give the child free access to paradise? if so how is that fair?

No one can intercede for a disbeliever (as far as I know). Like I said the death of children is a test for the people, just like any other ailment or tragedy that happens in the world. Every soul belongs to Allah solely, to Him we belong, and to Him we will return whether we are only a few seconds old or 120 years old.

Since as individuals we asked allah to test us in this world, is it not unfair that some childrens and babies die without getting a chance to prove themselves.

To prove themselves as what?? Allah already knows what they would have become. And depending on the children of disbelievers, their judgement is also with Allah in the end. For you, what is fair and unfair is relative and bound only to your experiences and knowledge. It does not go beyond that. So what you believe to be fair can very well not be so.

Thirdly, many would see that a child dying and being granted paradise as unfair simply because they didn't have any hardship or test but were given automatic paradise. I would rather be guaranteed paradise then have to gamble on taking life's test to earn paradise. The same can be said from the babies point of view. How can God justify his action here; if he truly is Just

There's nothing concrete that describes what will actually happen to children when they pass if they belonged to disbelieving families, so I won't dwell nor speculate about it. I'd rather not say something incorrectly, and it's not really my concern since they are now with their Lord.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you john.bob;

I feel that had they died younger they would be destined for hellfire.

Suppose someone is responsible for the death of your child; they were bought before the judge; and the overwhelming evidence showed they were guilty.

If it was within your power; would you want to see them punished so justice would happen? Could you possibly forgive them and show them mercy and let them walk away with some minor punishment; or no punishment at all?

What is more important to you, justice with punishment, forgiveness, or mercy?

How do you think your feelings are compared to Allah; whose first name is 'The Beneficent He who wills goodness and mercy for all His creatures'

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric

 

[john.bob]

[MENTION=282]*charisma*[/MENTION] I appreciate the detailed answer, which I fully agree with. My question is concerning young adults who are capable of sinning and understanding. e.g. the average 18yr old human. I'm not sure where you live but I live in the UK and most people (not all) around this age are very reluctant to care about religion no matter how seriously you talk to them about this. They will either just talk it off and forget about it or just argue with you to simply just make you give up, they are usually concerned more with studies, socializing or pursuing their future careers, etc.. Many of my work colleagues are converts who were very similar to what I described just now in their younger days, and as a result they found Islam later in their lives. e.g. 40 for what reason I'm not too sure. This then begs the question disbelievers that die young e.g. at 18 could feel cheated out because they were not allowed to live long as say one of my Muslim convert colleagues to be able to potentially accept Islam. I know that maybe they would have died a disbeliever even if they were given longer too live, however; wasn't giving everyone a chance in this world to allow them to prove them selves.

God knows the final outcome but let Humans live on earth to allow us a chance to show evidence that we can follow the teachings. The example I just mentioned is equivalent to God saying "I let you all live so you can prove your obedience, even though I know the outcome". Then when God takes the life of a young disbeliever and just says "Even if you lived a long life, you were destined to remain a disbeliever", whilst letting another disbeliever live longer; who happens to later accept Islam. In response the young disbeliever can argue 'If you are simply going to just say to me that I would've died a disbeliever; then why give me a life on this planet in the first place; instead why not just chuck me in hellfire in the first place'. It is very similar to giving an exam to everyone, but some are given longer to complete it and others less.

Furthermore, I understand everyone of us asked God to give us this test of life in this world; of which we have no memory off. This then brings to question why do babies die and not get the chance to undergo this test; even though like all of us they also requested to be tested in this life. How is it fair to allow some to take the test and others not to? God arbitrarily selects people who live long to be able to endure the test of this world; whilst taking the lives of some at young age (even though they asked like me and you to take this life's test). Babies are human just like us is it not unfair that God just casually discards their lives to use them as test tools for other people, where was their choice in this.

I understand that Justice to my understanding is limited, but I can clearly see based on my knowledge injustice in how people are tested.

 

[azc]

[MENTION=43967]john.bob[/MENTION]

When someone reaches puberty he is considered as an adult. What he does onwards whether good or bad deeds is fully responsible for all his sayings and doings. Allah :swt: has given him brain to distinguish what is right and what is wrong for him. When he is capable enough to take all his decisions even without consulting his own parents, he will have to ponder over his afterlife as well.

It's not necessary that when a person reaches 40 years or so, he converts to Islam, if it were true then most of the people of this age would be Muslims but reality is otherwise.

Fyi we have several young age (15 yrs to 20 yrs) reverts on this forum.

Now I ask you whether or not you want to protect yourself from everlasting hell fire...?

 

[urkahnkhan]

Thank you @SidratulMuntah for your informative answer. I agree that Judgement should be left to god and with everything you pointed out, however in the Quran god makes it clear that only believers enter paradise or individuals in very specific conditions such as tribal groups, etc. In the case I described we are talking about the average young men you can find in most western society. Some (not all) are very naieve pehaps due to their upbringing, social problems, etc. are not to keen to take religion seriously. if they died despite being exposed to Islam (even in detail), should go to hell according to what has been revealed if they were to die in that state. However, I know many muslim converts who accepted islam very late in their life. e.g. 40 and were very ignorant at a young age. Now many of them are very dedicated worshippers. I feel that had they died younger they would be destined for hellfire. Now, if im correct the younger men I mentioned could now argue why did he get to live till he accepted islam and I died before i was even able prove what I would've done had i lived that long.

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@*charisma* thank you for your informed response. So we are correct to assume that the individual who when younger was say distracted by worldly pleasure is exposed to islam, but chooses to ignore the warning and dies like this, could possibly go to paradise. If so I would appreciate an authentice source for this, thank you.

Also, I have never heard of a seperate test in the hearafter for individuals such as the ones I described in my question, can you cite a quote from the quran for this thank you again.

furthermore, can the child intercede for parents if they are disbelievers and save them from hell. if not then why did the child die? is it to give the child free access to paradise? if so how is that fair?

- - - Updated - - -

Since as individuals we asked allah to test us in this world, is it not unfair that some childrens and babies die without getting a chance to prove themselves.

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Since as individuals we asked allah to test us in this world, is it not unfair that some childrens and babies die without getting a chance to prove themselves.

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Since as individuals we asked allah to test us in this world, is it not unfair that some childrens and babies die without getting a chance to prove themselves.

You have very good questions to be honest and I will try to do my best to answer them accordingly.

It is true alot of the youth in the western society are naive but it dosen't mean that they have lower chance of entering paradise? The chances are equal even tho they might be born as non-believers they have equal chance with the one born in a muslim household. Because nobody can follow the right path except divine guidance and Allah guides people whom he finds good in their hearts and whomever he wills and it dosen't matter which part of the world or society they are from and hack they might even be living under the ocean if Allah finds any good in them he will guide them and this is a guraantee and this is how some people gain Allah's guidance and find his path despite being non-believers or being previously wicked it dosen't matter but what matters is what is in their hearts that is the most important thing and Allah says that if he found any good in someones heart that he will guide them.

So if someone gains Allah's guidance at the age of 40 or 18 it's the same for Allah he knew of these people before he granted them guidance and have appointed that specific timing. He lets some to enjoy themselves first and grant them guidance in their 40s while with others he grants them guidance earlier because they will find pleasure in that environment.

As for these who die in young age. Allah already knows if they were alive what choices they would have made in life but it could be that due to something in their choices that he granted them mercy and taken them in early stage. I reckon these infants would have had good in their hearts hence Allah has granted them mercy and spared them because he knew of their choices as adult. This is indeed without doubt the mercy of Allah. So it's not unfair that these kids are spared from hell-fire.

Allah had never forgotten about you individually and know about your resting place and your situation all along and if he finds any good within your heart he will guide you to the right path. Giving you ''Hidayah'' which means divine guidance and divine guidance comes to specific people and it dosen't mean just because you are born in muslim household you will be granted this no not at all. I have personally witnessed multiple of western people gain the ultimate ''Divine guidance'' despite them being born in a corrupt society and way of life but Allah saved these people because they were his beloved people and because they had ''GOOD HEARTS'' and Allah knew of this hence ''Divine guidance'' was deserved for them.

Having good heart dosen't have anything to do with being gentle or what not. Allah grants even a beautiful guidance to criminals, and people who are in jail, alcoholics, thieves and people you would not except to have anything good within them but Allah sees good in their hearts to guide them. I have even seen ultra alt-right people gain an ultimate and beautiful guidance from Allah(Swt)

 

[john.bob]

[MENTION=38240]azc[/MENTION] Thank you for your input, I understand and agree with what you are saying, but if we are held accountable from puberty than those that live longer have the advantage to grasp the correct path; whilst those that die few years after it. As I have said in my example many converts; would have died as disbelievers should they have died 10 years younger (while still past their puberty). Surely, this is not justice.

@urakhankhan Thank you as well for your answer, I agree people are guided by god and accept the correct path that way. However, I find that If God was to guide someone to Islam and made them accept it at say 40 and then he let another disbeliever die at a young age e.g. 19, wouldn't it be unfair because the 19 year old could easily argue to God if you had taken the life of the 40 year old man at 19 he would have died the same as me. Here God could argue that even if the 19 year old man did reach 40 he would have not been guided. But in response the 19 year old can say, if I am not gonna be given the same amount of time as the 40 year old man than why bother create me and give me chance to live to 19 for. It seems pointless to give him a chance if God was ultimately going to say I know your outcome and so I decided to end it at 19 for no real reason. In such a case God should have said to Humanity I know your outcome if I let you live in earth; and so I will send you to paradise or hell based on this knowledge.

Furthermore, I understand everyone of us asked God to give us this test of life in this world; of which we have no memory off. This then brings to question why do babies die and not get the chance to undergo this test; even though like all of us they also requested to be tested in this life. How is it fair to allow some to take the test and others not to? God arbitrarily selects people who live long to be able to endure the test of this world; whilst taking the lives of some at young age (even though they asked like me and you to take this life's test). Babies are human just like us is it not unfair that God just casually discards their lives to use them as test tools for other people, where was their choice in this.

I appreciate the kind responses from everyone, in other live chats, question forums and such I am attacked with anger usually. Thank You all for that.

 

[azc]

[MENTION=43967]john.bob[/MENTION]:

btw, what is your age...?

 

[john.bob]

[MENTION=38240]azc[/MENTION] I would rather not disclose my age, Thank You

 

[azc]

[MENTION=38240]azc[/MENTION] I would rather not disclose my age, Thank You

So you have come here for trolling.......

 

[john.bob]

[MENTION=38240]azc[/MENTION] please don't dismiss this question as trolling, I don't want to be rude, but if you don't have an answer then please ignore this question and leave this post. I genuinely wish to find an answer, but nobody seems to have a concrete answer to this question. They usually answer part of my question and have holes in them. Likewise, I don't understand how my question is trolling at all, so please explain why I am a troll for asking this?