How is this verse interpreted?

[IsamBitar]

15:26: "And We did certainly create man out of clay from an altered black mud."

Pottery clay (salsal) is made out of Silica and Alumina which combine to form Aluminium silicate, also known as Kaolinite.
Our bodies are made out of oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, and phosphorus.

How could the Quranic verse fit reality here? Or is it metaphorical?

Thanks.

 

[Ramadhan]

Science 24 October 2003:
Vol. 302 no. 5645 pp. 618-622
DOI: 10.1126/science.1089904

• Report

[h=1]Experimental Models of Primitive Cellular Compartments: Encapsulation, Growth, and Division[/h]

• Martin M. Hanczyc*,
• Shelly M. Fujikawa* and
• Jack W. Szostak†

[h=2]Abstract[/h] The clay montmorillonite is known to catalyze the polymerization of RNA from activated ribonucleotides. Here we report that montmorillonite accelerates the spontaneous conversion of fatty acid micelles into vesicles. Clay particles often become encapsulated in these vesicles, thus providing a pathway for the prebiotic encapsulation of catalytically active surfaces within membrane vesicles. In addition, RNA adsorbed to clay can be encapsulated within vesicles. Once formed, such vesicles can grow by incorporating fatty acid supplied as micelles and can divide without dilution of their contents by extrusion through small pores. These processes mediate vesicle replication through cycles of growth and division. The formation, growth, and division of the earliest cells may have occurred in response to similar interactions with mineral particles and inputs of material and energy.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/302/5645/618.full

 

[Ramadhan]

[h=1]Clay's matchmaking could have sparked life[/h]

• 19:00 23 October 2003 by Philip Cohen

Two of the crucial components for the origin of life - genetic material and cell membranes - could have been introduced to one another by a lump of clay, new experiments have shown.

The study of montmorillonite clay, by Martin Hanczyc, Shelly Fujikawa and Jack Szostak at the Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, revealed it can sharply accelerate the formation of membranous fluid-filled sacs.

These vesicles also grow and undergo a simple form of division, giving them the properties of primitive cells. Previous work has shown that the same simple mineral can help assemble the genetic material RNA from simpler chemicals. "Interestingly, the clay also gets internalised in the vesicles," says Leslie Orgel, an origin of life expert at the Salk Institute for Biological Sciences in San Diego, California. "So this work is quite nice in that it finds a connection between the mechanism that creates RNA and encloses it in a membrane."

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4307

 

[IsamBitar]

So the Quran didn't actually mean to say humans were created FROM clay, but their creation was assisted using clay. Right?

 

[Ramadhan]

So the Quran didn't actually mean to say humans were created FROM clay, but their creation was assisted using clay. Right?

I am not a scientist and I am not a mufassir, of which you have to have great qualification in both to make a good tafseer of that ayat.

But I have already shown you the refutation of your claim that human couldn't have come out from clay by citing the latest scientific discoveries, something that you seem to have professed as your religion.

 

[Iconodule]

Pottery clay (salsal) is made out of Silica and Alumina which combine to form Aluminium silicate, also known as Kaolinite.
Our bodies are made out of oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, and phosphorus.

How could the Quranic verse fit reality here? Or is it metaphorical?

Thanks.

It seems to me the verse is talking about one of the most profound moments in creation, and you want to see where it all fits on a periodic table. I think that is completely missing the point. For someone really to understand creation he must understand the real meaning of things. You will not understand the real meaning of things by putting them under a microscope or breaking them down to chemical components. All things come from God and move toward God but the materialist mindset is blind to this and so will only reach superficial understanding which is ultimately misleading.

 

[Predator]

What is the right interpretation of the below verse ?

To those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance, no opening will there be of the gates of heaven, nor will they enter the garden, until the camel can pass through the eye of the needle: Such is Our reward for those in sin. ” [Quran 7:40]

Very strangely a similar thing is said in the bible by Jesus(PBUH)

For it is easier for a camel to go through the needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.When his disciples heard [it,] they were exceedingly amazed,saying, Who then can be saved? {19:26} But Jesus beheld [them,] and said unto them, With men this is impossible but with God all things are possible” (Luke, 18:25).

 

[IsamBitar]

But I have already shown you the refutation of your claim

I haven't claimed anything. I just asked for the verse interpretation. Please don't put words into my mouth. The papers you've provided show montmorillonite clay to be a catalyst, not an actual component. My question was clear: how is that verse interpreted? Please answer accordingly or forward the question to someone who could, thanks.

 

[Ramadhan]

I haven't claimed anything. I just asked for the verse interpretation. Please don't put words into my mouth. The papers you've provided show montmorillonite clay to be a catalyst, not an actual component. My question was clear: how is that verse interpreted? Please answer accordingly or forward the question to someone who could, thanks.

This is what you said:

Pottery clay (salsal) is made out of Silica and Alumina which combine to form Aluminium silicate, also known as Kaolinite.
Our bodies are made out of oxygen, carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, calcium, and phosphorus.

How could the Quranic verse fit reality here? Or is it metaphorical?

I didn't put any words in your mouth.
From your post above, it is clear that you thought the Qur'an verse says human is composed of aluminium silicate. Otherwise you would have not tried to question whether it is metaphorical and according to you it is against your knowledge that human could have come out clay.

Those science articles I have shown you are pretty clear in their arguments that the first genetic materials arose out of clay.

 

[IsamBitar]

Those science articles I have shown you are pretty clear in their arguments that the first genetic materials arose out of clay.

I quote the article above:

The clay montmorillonite is known to catalyze the polymerization of RNA from activated ribonucleotides.

From the articles also:

The study of montmorillonite clay...revealed it can sharply accelerate the formation of membranous fluid-filled sacs.

Previous work has shown that the same simple mineral can help assemble the genetic material RNA from simpler chemicals.

Again, catalyst behaviour.

My second question, which you refrained from answering, was:

So the Quran didn't actually mean to say humans were created FROM clay, but their creation was assisted using clay. Right?

Citing those two scientific reports cause another question on my mind to arise. These researches are within the science of abiogenesis. Without a theory of abiogenesis, those research results would make no sense (there would be nothing to catalyse and evolve). Does Islam support abiogenesis, then?

 

[Abz2000]

i believe the word clay is used to refer to the description of modelling from earth,
since it does in other verses use words like tin, sualsual, ard, and turab,
these have diverse meanings - yet are used to describe the creation of man.

The similitude of Jesus before God is that of Adam; he created him from dust (turab) , then said to him: 'be': and he was.
Quran 3:59

yet we know that Jesus (pbuh) was born of woman.

clay argil dust mud earth etc. - so it doesn't necessarily mean a certain type of clay - but mud or soil,
i've lived in Bangladesh and i've seen them make baked mud bricks out of pond and river soil.
if you consider carefully - you will find that every component used to compose man comes from the ground - including water plants, cattle, milk, fruit and flying fowl.

this is not a contradiction.

there was also a site i came across recently which stated that there was a contradiction in the Quran since it said that :

Verily We created man of potter's clay of black mud altered,
And the jinn did We create aforetime of essential fire.
S. 15:26-27 Pickthall; cf. 55:15; 7:12; 38:76

and then:

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them,
and we made EVERY living thing of water? Will they not then believe?
S. 21:30 Pickthall

they believed this to be a contradiction since fire and water are not the same thing, and many people have tried to explain it away by saying that spirits and satan etc were other other worldly so it doesn't count as from earth etc,
however, due to recent scientific findings - we have found that clean smokeless fire is from water.

even the magnetic ELF frequency of the electricity running through our brain matches that of the Earth's electromagnetic field.
it's called schumann resonance.

so we can say that the debunkers and explainers may be limited in knowledge - but Almighty God's wisdom is Infinite.

And God knows best.

 

[Ramadhan]

I quote the article above:
The clay montmorillonite is known to catalyze the polymerization of RNA from activated ribonucleotides.
From the articles also:
The study of montmorillonite clay...revealed it can sharply accelerate the formation of membranous fluid-filled sacs.
Previous work has shown that the same simple mineral can help assemble the genetic material RNA from simpler chemicals.
Again, catalyst behaviour.

Yes, the clay work catalyst, and do you know how catalysts would work?
They require the raw material to be in contact with the catalyst in a mold.

My second question, which you refrained from answering, was:

I am refraining to answer because I am not a qualified mufassir. But it does seem to me that clay was used as a mould in the verse. B ut don't ask me if it's correct, my arabic is very very limited.

iting those two scientific reports cause another question on my mind to arise. These researches are within the science of abiogenesis. Without a theory of abiogenesis, those research results would make no sense (there would be nothing to catalyse and evolve). Does Islam support abiogenesis, then?

Islam does not support abiogenesis as purported by atheists.
However, muslims believe that Allah SWT created everything out of nothing.
Atheists believe that everything just popped out randomly out of nothingness.

Also, those researches are not within the science of abiogenesis. Abiogenesis is just a term invented by atheists in order to say "we don't know what happened"
Those researches only explained the synthesis of rna materials.

 

[Ramadhan]

so we can say that the debunkers and explainers may be limited in knowledge - but Almighty God's wisdom is Infinite.

Exactly.

Science has always changed, and will always change in the future, and human knowledge will always revise.

What makes todays atheists think that science is able to explain everything? Even with the most advanced science, they always find something new that make old science obsolete.
EXample: the discovery by CERN that neutrons travel faster than light turn physical sciences upside down.

 

[IsamBitar]

Islam does not support abiogenesis as purported by atheists.

Atheists have nothing to do with this. Scientists do, including those who are religious.

Atheists believe that everything just popped out randomly out of nothingness.

What some atheists believe is irrelevant. But in science, nobody says that anything popped out randomly out of anything.

Also, those researches are not within the science of abiogenesis.

Actually, Dr Jack Szostak (mentioned above) is a pioneer in abiogenesis. In fact, the Nobel Laureate proposed AND CONFIRMED the world's most plausible abiogenesis model. You may look that up if you want.

Abiogenesis is just a term invented by atheists in order to say "we don't know what happened"

No. Abiogenesis is a science. It is the study of how biological life arises from inorganic matter through natural processes, and the method by which life on Earth arose.


So, now, my third question which pops to mind is: why would you cite researches that were made in a field you wholly deny?


My original question remains unanswered. If you can't answer it, I would love if you could direct someone who has the ability to.


I'm not trying to troll here, I'm just looking for compelling answers. Thanks.

 

[Abz2000]

it's nice to see you're searching for answers and i hope you are sincere, the Quran tells us that the ones who fear God are the ones endued with understanding.

back to topic;
ive already explained to you that the Quran doesn't mention aluminium silicate,
it uses other terms similar to clay too,

since it does in other verses use words like tin, sualsual, ard, and turab,

soil mud clay earth dust etc.

surely you wouldn't get a banana and say its the same thing as eating soil,
or compare the constitution of the banana and then say it couldn't have come from soil because its different,or that a cat couldn't have come from soil since soil doesn't think or have life
one comes from another but they're not the same.

i've also explained to you how ive seen red bricks baked from pond mud,
the same mud from where human and fish food grows.

here's a group of three verses describing the process in distinct stages which may make it easier to understand;

The One Who has made the earth a bed for you and kept operative roads for you in it and

sent down water from the sky;

so with it We produced different pairs of vegetation.

Eat, and graze your cattle; indeed in this are signs for people of intellect.

[SIZE=+1]From it We have created you,
and to it We shall return you,
and from it We shall extract you again.

Quran 20;53-55

it is clearly describing the earth - from which all living things come,

now creating the first being would be different from those born of woman,
and we are told that he was fashioned and God breathed of His spirit into him thereby giving him life;

When thy Lord said to the angels,
'I am creating a mortal of a clay.
When I have shaped him, and breathed My spirit in him, fall you down, bowing before him!' Then the angels bowed themselves all together, save Iblis; he waxed proud, and was one of the unbelievers. Said He, 'Iblis, what prevented thee to bow thyself before that I created with My own hands? Hast thou waxed proud, or art thou of the lofty ones?'
S. 38:71-75

nowhere does it mention aluminium silicate,
there are many qualities in soil which can be used as clay and food[/SIZE]

 

[Iconodule]

God could make man out of wood or water if he had wanted to. Don't poke at it with a magnifying glass; just remember where you come from, and where you will return, and humble yourself.

 

[IsamBitar]

Sorry for my late reply; been having internet problems.​

it is clearly describing the earth - from which all living things come,

So are you trying to say that the verse is not literal? I mean, that it only describes an origin (that we are all earthlings) rather than describe a chemical composition?

 

[Abz2000]

i do not have the knowledge to confirm that - and we are learning new things every day so i won't second guess Almighty God
what i am saying is that the Quran alternatively uses "dust" "mud" "clay"
and also uses dust to refer to the creation of Jusus (pbuh) who was conceived in the womb.
so to me - it looks like it is describing the composition AND the description of moulding.

when the Quran says "sualsaalin KA alfakkhar", Quran 55:13
it is saying clay LIKE UNTO pottery

خَلَقَ الْإِنسَانَ مِن صَلْصَالٍ كَالْفَخَّارِ


خَلَقَ - KHALAQ - CREATED
الْإِنسَانَ - AL-INSAN:
AL- (SOMETIMES COMES BEFORE A NOUN) / THE
INSAN - MAN
مِن - MIN - FROM
صَلْصَالٍ - SUALSUAAL - CLAY/ARGIL/ARGILLACEOUS EARTH
كَالْفَخَّارِ - KALFAKKHAR:
KA - LIKE UNTO/LIKE/AS/AS THOUGH/AS IF
AL- (SOMETIMES COMES BEFORE A NOUN) / THE
FAKKHAR - POTTERY/EARTHENWARE/CROCKERY

it definitely looks like it is describing the appearance of fashioning - and not aluminium silicate,
especially since the words mud and dust are alternatively used - but God knows best.
i've already explained to you that clay used for baking doesn't always mean aluminium silicate.
i will again repeat that i have seen perfect red building bricks baked out of pond water.
and fish eat of the herbage that grows from that pond soil.
and we in turn eat that fish - and sometimes the herbs too.

and secondly - the description you were given of pottery is very stretched and narrowed down to achieve kaolinite:

Kaolinite is a clay mineral, part of the group of industrial minerals, with the chemical composition Al[SUB]2[/SUB]Si[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]5[/SUB](OH)[SUB]4[/SUB]. It is a layered silicate mineral, with one tetrahedral sheet linked through oxygenatoms to oneoctahedral sheet of alumina octahedra. Rocks that are rich in kaolinite are known as kaolin or china clay.

Aluminium silicate (or aluminum silicate) has the chemical formula (AlO)[SUB]2[/SUB]SiO[SUB]3[/SUB]. It has a density of 2.8 to 2.9 g/cm³, a vitreous lustre, a refractive index of 1.56, a Mohs hardness of 4.5-7.5 (depending upon structure), and can have orthorhombic crystallography. It is insoluble and used as a refractory in glassmaking.

China clay is kaolinised feldspar - they are highly valued for their whiteness, hence their use in bone china.
Pure kaolin is necessary for the manufacture of porcelain and other fine china;

impure varieties are used in making pottery, stoneware, and bricks; as filler for pigments; and in the manufacture of paper.

China clays have poor plasticity so they are often used in conjunction with additives - usually ball clay and bentonite.
As a general rule china clays are quicker to cast than sedimentary clays.

i'm sure you would agree that to narrow down and stretch the word fakkhar (pottery) to uniquely mean kaolinite - takes a little stretch of the imagination.
peace

 

[Ramadhan]

So are you trying to say that the verse is not literal? I mean, that it only describes an origin (that we are all earthlings) rather than describe a chemical composition?

Why do you keep insisting the verse describing chemical composition?
Even in simple translation it does not suggest that the verse says about chemical composition of human.

You can go and ask the scholars at www.islamqa.com and ask about interpretation of the verse.

 

[IsamBitar]

Why do you keep insisting the verse describing chemical composition?

Well Muslims have always taken the Quran as a science book therefore what came first to my mind is that the verse is talking about the actual composition. But if you say otherwise, then OK.

Thanks abz2000 that's pretty informative.