How is this verse interpreted?

[Ramadhan]

Well Muslims have always taken the Quran as a science book therefore what came first to my mind is that the verse is talking about the actual composition. But if you say otherwise, then OK.

Not sure where you get the idea that muslims have taken Qur'an as a science book. I haven't heard any muslim said that, and I am sure I know many many many many more muslims than you do.
And not sure where you get the idea that the verse say anything about composition when it clearly doesn't.

 

[IsamBitar]

Not sure where you get the idea that muslims have taken Qur'an as a science book.

Well, to be honest. I've seen that many Muslims use the Quran as a reference of science, as many Muslims base their rejection of, for example, evolution, abiogenesis, and many aspects of cosmology and quantum physics, on what they think the Quran goes against.

Also the newest Islamic trend of "the Quran predicts scientific fact X, therefore the Quran is the word of God," which cuts bothways, really. Because if you're going to use the Quran to describe such accurate scientific facts AND infer its authenticity from that, then you're putting the Quran under scientific probation where EVERYTHING in it should be an accurate scientific presentation which would leave little room for metaphors. In which context, verses like the one above would sound weak.

I don't think the Quran should be treated as a science book. I think its place is in philosophy, where metaphors are allowed and where verses like the one above would be poetic rather than wrong.

 

[Abz2000]

i trust you agree that there is no contradiction in the verse regarding the likeness of pottery, or the fact that all living things are are an extract from the composition of soil - including vegetation.
but the justification for people to use the Quran as evidence of a scientific miracle is also not a contradiction,
since the Quran is not just a book of science but a complete standard for a way of life - which also includes scientific facts just recently discovered.
for instance:

ARE, THEN, those who disbelieve not aware that the heavens and the earth were [once] one single entity,which We then parted asunder?
– and [that] We made out of water / liquid every living thing?Will they not, then, believe?
AL QURAN 21:30

“AND IT IS We who have built the universe with our power;and indeed, it is We who are steadily expanding it.”
AL QURAN 51:47
​

these verses are clearly pointing to a scientific observation which we are coming around to in the last century, namely that the universe is expanding.
some have even tried to explain the phenomenon of the outward moving objects with the theory of a big bang, since the law of motion (conservation of momentum) suggests that they would continue to expand and have always done so since a given point in time.
but for an illiterate man in a desert 1400 years ago to come to this conclusion without quite an imagination - or an all knowing force instructing him - is a little far-fetched.
so yes, you can use proven science as a standard for evaluating the authenticity of it - but it's main aim doesn't seem to just be as a text book on science - but a moral code.

and the fact that we are discovering them now is also a part of that miracle:
"We SHALL show them Our signs in the Horizons and within themselves,
until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth.
Is it not sufficient that your Lord is a witness over all things?
Quran, 41:53

it's quite intriguing that it tells us that we will find out some of these signs IN FUTURE, and not something the Prophet (pbuh) is trying to prove as reality in his time.

these videos may help in understanding the concept:

i have put some of my observations here:
http://abz2000.com/power.aspx​

 

[IsamBitar]

ARE, THEN, those who disbelieve not aware that the heavens and the earth were [once] one single entity,which We then parted asunder?

This is exactly what I mean. If you're going to use this as a prediction of the discovery of the Big Bang, then it has to COMPLETELY describe it with ultimate accuracy. Which this verse fails to do. Here's why: in the Big Bang theory, there was never a separation of the "heavens" and earth. In fact, the earth was formed over nine billion years after the Big Bang. Therefore, this verse is not accurate enough to be used as a reference to the Big Bang, and therefore is not a scientific miracle. I could elaborate on this point in further detail if you wanted to. My point is, the Quran should be used in its place: the religion and philosophy shelf in a home library, nowhere near science books.

 

[Abz2000]

i don't use it to as a prediction of the discovery of the big bang THEORY - and i have no reason to believe that it is a prediction of a big bang THEORY,
i said that people have observed it to be the case that the universe is indeed expanding (this is proven).
some have used the bing bang theory to rationalise this observation - since if it is expanding - as described in the Quran, then it must be constant, and in order for it to be constant, it must have been one unit at some point of time. the big bang theory does NOT explain the causative factors of how something which is stationary suddenly decides to disintegrate and spread out without any external factor - and why that external factor decided to affect it.
the Quran does.

the Quran does not go into detail as it clearly says they were all one entity and that God caused them to part (that is a reliable explanation since it shows an external force with the ability to decide, has caused it to change it's course, matter cannot do this spontaneously without laws - and for there to be laws - there must be a LawMaker ),

the "heavens" in Islam does not mean paradise as it does in the current bible translations - it means what is not on earth -
that includes the sky, universe, the stars, the planets, the suns, galaxies etc.
so the earth would fall into the equation of being a part of that mass before it was separated,
and the most obvious reason i can think of for mentioning earth is because it is revealed to the people of Earth, regardless of how long afterwards scientists theorize earth may have formed - it was a part of that mass.

all that i have written here is summarized in that one verse, and indeed we can write more.
if the Quran stopped to explain every single aspect of the separation of initial mass - i'm sure entire libraries could be filled, but that isn't the purpose of the Quran, it touches on subjects and opens the way for observation and study. and leaves the one who studies and reflects wondering how it is possible that someone could have just written something so profound and unfathomable 1400 years ago.

And We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will be reminded?
Quran 54:17

it doesn't say "we have revealed a voluminous encyclopedia that stretches to the moon which you'll never finish reading in your lifetime so you may as well believe".

190. Verily, in the creation of the heavens and the earth,
and in the alternation of night and day,
- there are indeed Signs for those who posses understanding,-
191. Those who celebrate the praises of Almighty God,
standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides,
and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth,
"Our Lord! not for nothing have You created this!
Glory to You!
Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.

these types of verses also inspired muslims to entertain a thirst for knowledge and study in all fields rather than just shun them as "irreligious", since the Quran instructed them to reflect.
islam is a "way of life", not a "religion" which is "separate from state".

your comment is like saying: my boss said a new employee would come. why didn't he say what shoes the employee would be wearing and whether the employee likes eating sandwiches at break time, or whether the employee was married etc - you could write an essay on it and it would be irrelevant.

and regarding your jibe on "science", i'm not sure what your understanding of the word "science" is, as to me it means an unbiased study of observations, which includes the possibility of an intelligent creator,
to todays "secular" government approved "scientists", science seems to mean anything that can be used to pretend God doesn't exist - even if our findings exclude fundamental facts relevant to the topic - or our funding goes out the window.
findings and fundings don't have that same relationship in Islam

science is not a separate compartment in Islam, all truth is from one source and is part of life, and if a finding is truth, then it is a part of Islam.
it is not like the kafir method of separating everything and every topic into totally different compartments where one can contradict the other without any raised eyebrows (since it is after all "a separate department").

and we believe the orbits, the essential interaction of the sun, moon earth etc to be a part of intelligent design. not randomness.

The Revelation of the Book is from Allah the Exalted in Power, Full of Wisdom.
We created not the heavens and the earth and all between them but for just ends, and for a Term Appointed:
But those who reject Faith turn away from that whereof they are warned.
Quran 46:2-3

 

[IsamBitar]

I noticed you seem to have a problem with the word theory.
A scientific theory comprises a collection of concepts, including abstractions of observable phenomena expressed as quantifiable properties, together with rules (called scientific laws) that express relationships between observations of such concepts. A scientific theory is constructed to conform to available empirical data about such observations, and is put forth as a principle or body of principles for explaining a class of phenomena. Therefore, a theory is the highest rank a scientific statement could get. Don't underestimate theories. You use them in your everyday life when you use your computer, car, TV, phone, etc.

the Quran does.

Ehh, nope. Quantum theory does, WITH EVIDENCE. The Quran just says stuff without providing any testable or verifiable evidence. You're using the Quran to prove/support/explain science, that's just stupid.

so the earth would fall into the equation of being a part of that mass before it was separated

There was no earth at the time of the "separation." There was no separation to begin with. The Big Bang is an EXPANSION, not an explosion. The Quranic so-called description of the Big Bang is utterly false. If you knew the least thing about cosmology, you'd know that.

but that isn't the purpose of the Quran

Exactly. So, stop using it as a science book.

which includes the possibility of an intelligent creator,

Only if such intelligent creator is the only viable explanation to whatever phenomena is being studied. If all the evidence pointed towards God, scientists would have no choice but to assume his existence. But why is it that 99% of scientists do not put God in the equation? Simple: because it's not needed.

and if a finding is truth, then it is a part of Islam.

Then why is it that most Muslims reject evolution and threaten Muslims who preach evolution with death threats?

part of intelligent design. not randomness.

Is that why the earth faces constant threat from nearby asteroids all the time?
Is that why most of the other planets' orbits are unstable and could change path any time?
Is that why our Milkyway is on a collision course with Andromeda?

Science could explain all these orbits naturally, without the need to invoke an external supernatural designer. This in itself makes such power redundant in explaining those orbits. Sorry, mate.

 

[Abz2000]

i now see you have no intention of looking at facts - but your aim is to "debunk".
the fact is - that i used "THEORY" in capitals - due to the fact that it is a THEORY, and the Quran doesn't allow us to use it to prove theories - we can make observations and correlating statements, and how sensible theories MAY be possible - but to use a theory as proof would be conjecture.
i also explained the concept of theory here:

some have used the bing bang theory to rationalise this observation - since if it is expanding - as described in the Quran, then it must be constant, and in order for it to be constant, it must have been one unit at some point of time.

then i went on to explain the flaws in the reasoning of the atheists who use it - i do NOT DISREGARD the big bang THEORY as an impossibility - nor as a fact.

i also explained to you why earth is mentioned - regardless of whether it was formed or not - it was a part of that mass - just like the physical composition of human beings are part of earth:

so the earth would fall into the equation of being a part of that mass before it was separated,
and the most obvious reason i can think of for mentioning earth is because it is revealed to the people of Earth, regardless of how long afterwards scientists theorize earth may have formed - it was a part of that mass.

Exactly. So, stop using it as a science book.

who said i'm using it as a science book - i made it clear to you that the Quran makes scientific statements which were NOT observable phenomena until the last century.
it is not a science book - but it justifies real science - talking about SINCERITY.

If all the evidence pointed towards God, scientists would have no choice but to assume his existence.

many do - but many (especially establishment ones) are in total DENIAL of facts STARING THEM IN THE FACE - ...............especially for the past 3 decades...........

evolution is a joke of a theory which can be amply refuted - my fingers would ache from typing,
let's be more simple:
if i called your mom a monkey on the street - i'm sure your dad would threaten me with violence.
or if i saw you on the street and randomly said: your grandpa's an ape - i'm sure you wouldn't be too happy (despite your grandpa being your "forefather").
or if i called you a product of bestiality with apes - i'm sure you would be at least offended - some might go further.

we Muslims feel the same - Adam was our father - Hawa was our mother.

and if i called obama an orangutan - i'm sure you'd call me racist - and some would even get violent
- yet you guys say that black people are the closest to apes - and expect them not to be offended!

so the cognitive dissonance lies with you - i am at peace with opposing it - you are not ...................

Is that why the earth faces constant threat from nearby asteroids all the time?

there is nothing random about driving on a motorway and seeing others go past or a narrow road where they come straight at you - the cars have drivers.
you could call them all near misses if you like - but that's you................

Is that why most of the other planets' orbits are unstable and could change path any time?

oh - so you believe in orbits? or do you now admit that it is a fact that you can't deny?
the orbits shred to pieces the atheist interpretation of the big bang theory - as the law of conservation of momentum states that they will CONTINUE to be CONSTANT unless an external force acts upon it.

so if they come outwards from one mass - they will continue to go outwards - not start doing acrobatics in the air and one giving fire and light, one reflection - and one with water and soil and life forms and trees and planes and beings that fly to other planets (/moon).

i'm sur that if you stood up in front of an international audience with a handful of dust in your grip - and tried to claim that there was a probability that when you threw the dust - it would split up and pieces would start orbiting each other for a few billion years, one giving ESSENTIAL light to another - and one would randomly start growing water and species and those species would made shuttles fly off to other particles of dust - and come back without randomness........


they'd laugh you off the podium with guffaws and the presenter would probably apologise to the audience - the probability of it happening is ZERO - unless there was someone with special effects software making it happen on a screen. or an intelligent being giving laws to each thing.


so how is it that these "scientists" think were so dumb as to believe their jokes - and they even insult us by calling us products of bestiality with apes?

God has given the believer more sense and dignity.

 

[Abz2000]

• Umm Salama said:

His [the Mahdi's] aim is to establish a moral system from which all superstitious faiths have been eliminated. In the same way that students enter Islam, so unbelievers will come to believe.[SUP][20][/SUP]
​

When the Mahdi appears,
God will cause such power of vision and hearing to be manifested in believers
that the Mahdi will call to the whole world from where he is,
with no postman involved,
and they will hear and even see him.[SUP][21][/SUP]
​

I heard the Messenger of God say: "The Mahdi is of my lineage and family […]".

these events are not random - and the meccan leaders would laugh whenever the Prophet (pbuh) made statements which they could not make sense of - yet he would continue to say them.
i'm sure you can make sense of them now?
who's laugh is more mature?

random selection would mean random events, and random events can only give rise to predictions based on trends - the above narration is not a prediction based on trends - as there was nothing to base it on other than the possibility of knowledge of the unseen revealed to him - it is PROPHECY
- true science would see these events and ask questions, try to make sense of them - or at least acknowledge possibilities - yet is seems that the conflict between findings and fundings - gives way to fundings.

scroll to 6 minutes:

​

 

[Dagless]

This is exactly what I mean. If you're going to use this as a prediction of the discovery of the Big Bang, then it has to COMPLETELY describe it with ultimate accuracy. Which this verse fails to do. Here's why: in the Big Bang theory, there was never a separation of the "heavens" and earth. In fact, the earth was formed over nine billion years after the Big Bang. Therefore, this verse is not accurate enough to be used as a reference to the Big Bang, and therefore is not a scientific miracle. I could elaborate on this point in further detail if you wanted to. My point is, the Quran should be used in its place: the religion and philosophy shelf in a home library, nowhere near science books.

Before spending time chasing straw men, you should read a commentary of the Qur'an so you understand what the words mean and the context they are used in. From what you've written above it's clear you haven't done this.

Nobody here is using the Qur'an as a science textbook. It does, however, mention scientific concepts in passing. It does this time and time again without being against proven science (unlike many other religious books in which there are clear contradictions with science facts).

In your initial question about the mud you are trying to compare composition, but if you don't know the initial composition of the "altered black mud" how can you hope to compare it?

 

[IsamBitar]

i now see you have no intention of looking at facts - but your aim is to "debunk".

You're wrong. I'm looking for answers, but I want proper answers. Answers to satisfy me, not things that are just not enough.

many do - but many (especially establishment ones) are in total DENIAL of facts STARING THEM IN THE FACE - ...............especially for the past 3 decades...........

Right, so you're trying to say that scientists of this level are stupid enough to just deny something supposedly as important as that just because they feel like it? Such respect for the ones who invented the very forum you're using.. No. Scientists who see God as true they acknowledge it. Look at Kenneth R. Miller for an example. Same goes for people like Francisco Ayala. But even those people, they believe in God as a higher entity but they never EVER say that science points towards that god or that all evidence points towards it. This is your own unverified claim. And no, scientists are not in a worldwide global conspiracy to kick god out of people's lives. That's just your imagination.

yet you guys say that black people are the closest to apes

Where do you get your science from?! Nobody ever says that. Have you ever actually read a book about evolution? Do you even know what it talks about? Go to Facebook and go to /libraryofevolution you'll find plenty of information you seem to lack. Refute that if you can.

you could call them all near misses if you like

• A Chinese record states that 10,000 people were killed in Shanxi Province in 1490 by a hail of "falling stones."
• Kamil Crater, discovered from Google Earth image review in Egypt, 45 meters in diameter, 10 meters deep is thought to have been formed less than 3,500 years ago in a then-unpopulated region of Western Egypt.
• On October 7, 2008, a meteroid labeled 2008 TC3 was tracked for 20 hours as it approached Earth and as it fell through the atmosphere and impacted in Sudan.
• On November 21, 2009, a fireball was sighted in South Africa by police and traffic cameras. The probable meteor may have landed in a remote area on the Botswana border, and likely made little impact.
• On September 15, 2007, a chondritic meteor crashed near the village of Carancas in southeastern Peru near Lake Titicaca, leaving a water-filled hole and spewing gases across the surrounding area. Many residents became ill, apparently from the noxious gases shortly after the impact.
• The most significant recorded impact in recent times was the Tunguska event, which occurred in Siberia, Russia, in 1908. This incident involved an explosion that was probably caused by the airburst of an asteroid or comet 5 to 10 km (3.1 to 6.2 mi) above the Earth's surface, felling an estimated 80 million trees over 2,150 km[SUP]2[/SUP] (830 sq mi).

I don't call those near-missed. I call them near-fatal hits. And those are just very few of many. I could go on forever with the list.

as the law of conservation of momentum states that they will CONTINUE to be CONSTANT unless an external force acts upon it.

Ah, no. This argument is a whole load of crap.
In Quantum Physics, conservation laws are not 100% true all the time. They are merely usual statistical outcomes. Things are constantly popping in and out of existence. It is the fact that the popping in and out generally cancel out. That causes conservation of matter-energy to generally apply. If the conservation laws of matter-energy are open to change it is entirely possible that angular momentum might do strange things without the need for God's hand as an explanation.
The most likely explanation however is one should be known to anyone who seriously studies Astro-physics, I doubt you do. Random (Brownian) motion given time leads to united spin orbits.The mechanics of this is well known and is a major part of the cause of planets spinning and planets orbiting stars in like directions.

i'm sur that if you stood up in front of an international audience with a handful of dust in your grip

This is the fattest Straw Man I have ever seen in my life. It's not even worth replying to.

 

[IsamBitar]

In your initial question about the mud you are trying to compare composition, but if you don't know the initial composition of the "altered black mud" how can you hope to compare it?

So what you're basically saying is that this mud which the Quran talks about is not the same as what we observe today? Like some kind of magical mud? OK then that answers my question.. Thanks.

 

[Dagless]

So what you're basically saying is that this mud which the Quran talks about is not the same as what we observe today? Like some kind of magical mud? OK then that answers my question.. Thanks.

I'm saying I don't know what type of mud it was. Since even the mud on earth has a different composition depending on location; your quest to find out the exact components of the mud used was obviously leading nowhere. Maybe you can write it down to ask God later?