How To Speak To People Of Other Faiths
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Hulk
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I finally got a chance to finish listening to this lecture after last night and I must say that I learned a lot. I didn't know that earlier Muslims made people join an Arab tribe before they could become Muslims. I suppose that's a way to ensure quality control.
It's also interesting to me when he talked about the Ottoman Empire and the way they didn't really push Islam on other people. Historians here in the U.S. and other Western nations try to characterize the Ottoman Empire as this awful place that conquered all and forced Islam upon the masses but looking at it from the other side we see that wasn't always the case. I was online the other day and I saw this movie called Conquest 1453 about the Ottoman Empire and people, specially non-Muslims, were getting upset that the movie was made because they wondered how could they do something to glorify aggressors.
It's interesting to me how in schools the history of peoples is so prejudiced. They never give a panoramic view of history. Certainly I need to study the history of the Ottoman Empire more since what I know of it is only a fraction. When I first came upon the concept of a dhimmi in Islam I thought it was actually nice the way the rules are for the treatment of those people. As a non-Muslim back then I appreciated being under the rule of a majority that still respected the freedom of the minority to practice whatever religion they chose.
In the United States, we have this concept adopted from these Islamic principles but it's not carried out. The first amendment grants it but it's suppressed. It's still the way that if you're not either a Jew or Christian in the United States you're going to have a bit of a tougher time than everyone else because you're different. I really wish it wasn't that way but as they say...majority rules...
I finally got a chance to finish listening to this lecture after last night and I must say that I learned a lot. I didn't know that earlier Muslims made people join an Arab tribe before they could become Muslims. I suppose that's a way to ensure quality control.
It's also interesting to me when he talked about the Ottoman Empire and the way they didn't really push Islam on other people. Historians here in the U.S. and other Western nations try to characterize the Ottoman Empire as this awful place that conquered all and forced Islam upon the masses but looking at it from the other side we see that wasn't always the case. I was online the other day and I saw this movie called Conquest 1453 about the Ottoman Empire and people, specially non-Muslims, were getting upset that the movie was made because they wondered how could they do something to glorify aggressors.
It's interesting to me how in schools the history of peoples is so prejudiced. They never give a panoramic view of history. Certainly I need to study the history of the Ottoman Empire more since what I know of it is only a fraction. When I first came upon the concept of a dhimmi in Islam I thought it was actually nice the way the rules are for the treatment of those people. As a non-Muslim back then I appreciated being under the rule of a majority that still respected the freedom of the minority to practice whatever religion they chose.
In the United States, we have this concept adopted from these Islamic principles but it's not carried out. The first amendment grants it but it's suppressed. It's still the way that if you're not either a Jew or Christian in the United States you're going to have a bit of a tougher time than everyone else because you're different. I really wish it wasn't that way but as they say...majority rules...
Hulk
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Alhamdulillah 
yeah I learnt a lot too and even then I'm sure I didn't get the whole picture! The title of the talk really doesn't do it justice in my opinion as it's totally more than what I expected. The thing that really reached out to me was about excusing people because of their ignorance. I never really realised that the higher the level of knowledge of a civilisation the more that are expected of them (makes sense but somehow never thought of it). It reminds about how important it is to seek knowledge.. There are people right now who talk about how our number one goal should be to implement sharia but never take the time to think about the level of knowledge of the people. Priority must always be the inward first, then comes the outward.
yeah I learnt a lot too and even then I'm sure I didn't get the whole picture! The title of the talk really doesn't do it justice in my opinion as it's totally more than what I expected. The thing that really reached out to me was about excusing people because of their ignorance. I never really realised that the higher the level of knowledge of a civilisation the more that are expected of them (makes sense but somehow never thought of it). It reminds about how important it is to seek knowledge.. There are people right now who talk about how our number one goal should be to implement sharia but never take the time to think about the level of knowledge of the people. Priority must always be the inward first, then comes the outward.
Muhaba
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i will listen to it insha-Allah.
I scanned the transcript quickly but didn't read it all. insha-Allah will do soon. About the terms "dawah to muslims," and "enjoin good and forbid evil."
Each of these terms have a specific meaning. nowadays many muslims are muslims by name. such people don't know much about islam, so you can't really "enjoin good and forbid evil" with such people. for example, you can't say to such a muslim "(you should) wear hijab" or "don't chat/mix with the opposite sex" or "don't drink" or "don't listen to music" etc. Their eman (faith) is so low that they are hardly muslims except by name. it's better to call such people to Islam slowly rather than instructing them to do good and stopping them from sins. Regarding such people you have to know their level of islam and then instruct them / do dawah accordingly. If their faith is not correct you'll have to teach them the correct faith. If they aren't practicing Islam you need to know just why: are they lazy (which means they have forgotten or are ignorant of the severity of Allah's punishment) or are they ignorant of the requirements or some other reason.
so i think both these terms can be used in regard to muslims
I scanned the transcript quickly but didn't read it all. insha-Allah will do soon. About the terms "dawah to muslims," and "enjoin good and forbid evil."
Each of these terms have a specific meaning. nowadays many muslims are muslims by name. such people don't know much about islam, so you can't really "enjoin good and forbid evil" with such people. for example, you can't say to such a muslim "(you should) wear hijab" or "don't chat/mix with the opposite sex" or "don't drink" or "don't listen to music" etc. Their eman (faith) is so low that they are hardly muslims except by name. it's better to call such people to Islam slowly rather than instructing them to do good and stopping them from sins. Regarding such people you have to know their level of islam and then instruct them / do dawah accordingly. If their faith is not correct you'll have to teach them the correct faith. If they aren't practicing Islam you need to know just why: are they lazy (which means they have forgotten or are ignorant of the severity of Allah's punishment) or are they ignorant of the requirements or some other reason.
so i think both these terms can be used in regard to muslims
Hulk
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Yes sis I recall bro ardianto mentioning the two types of "dawah", one of them being to musims though in the technical sense dawah means "invite" referring to invite to Islam. It's certainly not easy in handling the situation you mention, if only it was as easy as reminding when it comes to some of my friends. There are those that practice the outward yet forget about the state of the heart, then there are those that say they believe yet do not practice. I'm sure many of us have been guilty of such.. I guess that's why its so important to seek knowledge, so that you not only know how to practice but why as well.
Very true sister. But you know I think even sometimes the imams and sheiks forget this too when giving out fatwas and rulings on such things. As a revert I feel like sometimes with the rulings they don't take these questions into consideration that could be solved by a little bit of background about the individual situations as to why some Muslims might not be doing what they need to be doing. And it creates a sense of alienation. I've noticed that too even with fatwas that are written online. It's written from a cultural perspective that's not easily applicable to those of us who don't live in the Middle East or grew up in areas of the world that have a distinct culture that makes it a little bit tougher to do certain things in Islam. And reading it makes you feel like...an awful Muslim or like you've done something wrong for not being born in the "right" place. Hijrah is an option but when you don't have the means to do so...
Muhaba
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^what sort of fatwas are you talking about? what sort of behaviors are they about? A lot of times the fatwas that ppl post here from Islam QA etc don't have evidence from Quran, Sunnah. It's important to have evidence so we can know where the ruling is coming from and what is it exactly. and even the situation a particular ruling was given in if possible.
hijra is not really an option as there are no truly muslim countries and most of the inhabitants of muslim areas are worse than other people, hardly following islam; dealing in very unislamic behavior; . Islam is mostly just a label. which is why most people are escaping to the West.
Most muslims today assume that praying and fasting are the only things required of them and they can do whatever else they want and Allah will forgive them all their sins. such belief actaully makes them bold for doing unislamic things, not caring for people's rights, etc. But this belief is wrong.
Allah said in Quran, Surah Al-Baqarah, 2:177: Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous.
hijra is not really an option as there are no truly muslim countries and most of the inhabitants of muslim areas are worse than other people, hardly following islam; dealing in very unislamic behavior; . Islam is mostly just a label. which is why most people are escaping to the West.
Most muslims today assume that praying and fasting are the only things required of them and they can do whatever else they want and Allah will forgive them all their sins. such belief actaully makes them bold for doing unislamic things, not caring for people's rights, etc. But this belief is wrong.
Allah said in Quran, Surah Al-Baqarah, 2:177: Righteousness is not that you turn your faces toward the east or the west, but [true] righteousness is [in] one who believes in Allah , the Last Day, the angels, the Book, and the prophets and gives wealth, in spite of love for it, to relatives, orphans, the needy, the traveler, those who ask [for help], and for freeing slaves; [and who] establishes prayer and gives zakah; [those who] fulfill their promise when they promise; and [those who] are patient in poverty and hardship and during battle. Those are the ones who have been true, and it is those who are the righteous.
Yes, I see a lot of stuff from that site too. I actually don't care for that site to be honest. Reading some information on there almost made me not accept Islam. A lot of the time the rulings don't even make sense to me aside from there not being evidence posted. It's like the English is wrong or something and it's repetitive. Some of the rulings the made me uneasy were the hot button issues about how a woman is treated in marriage, adultery, living in non-Muslim countries, etc. I feel like they don't take into consideration the different obstacles that people face and are too quick to judge and also don't usually provide alternate views in some situations.
You're not the first person to tell me that either. I keep hearing this over and over again from a lot of Muslims around here too.
Same basic idea I had when I was a Christian. Pray, go to church if you can, and God will just forgive you if you fall short with everything else...It's really sad to see that lax concept of salvation be dominant mindset in Islam now.
But I wonder what can we as Muslims do now to inspire future generations to go beyond that and actually follow Islam? Is it a lack of education? A lack of a strong Islamic community for the children to grow up in?
Muhaba
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^ a lack of islamic education is one reason. ppl hardly know anything about their religion these days. nonarabs don't even try to understand the Quran and i think even arabs don't focus on the meaning. maybe they don't even read it except in Ramadan. the muslims are truly ignorant of their religion.