How was the trinity adopted?

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Follower said:
The three forms of God all play a different role, is that right?

Yes, there are different roles just as your mind, body and soul each has a different role.

The Holy Spirit and Jesus work under the authority of God the Father.
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Wait, I thought all 3 were equal and part of the same being? If God the Father has the authority, then he has two "less than equal" parts?

^o)
 
rpwelton said:
Wait, I thought all 3 were equal and part of the same being? If God the Father has the authority, then he has two "less than equal" parts?
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And that is why I prefer to talk about the idea of the Spirit and the Son "proceeding from" the Father rather than being under "authority" of the Father. But in truth, depending on which one of the early Christian fathers you spoke to some would say that the Father, Son and Spirit are all equal, and others would say that while one that there is inequality in the Godhead. Origen, I believe, even slipped a little too far and said some things that to me are contrary to the teaching of scripture and are perilously close to the Arian view that the Son is a creation of the Father. But in his Homilies on Numbers 12 Origen still does imply the existence of three persons and one shared substance.

Regarding your specific question, the idea of the subordination of the Son and the Spirit to some "higher" status of the Father is mentioned by such notables as Justin Martyr and Ireneus in different forms. And while Justin Martyr's views were considered heretical, I find it interesting that Ireneus's view is actually called "orthodox subordinationism" -- an oxymoron if there ever was one.

Origen took from Ireneus the idea that while one, there still might be some sort of order or priority within the Godhead. He affirmed that all three persons were co-eternal, but he insisted that only the Father was autotheos, that is self-subsistent. This is not what was meant by those before him who said that the Son and the Spirit proceeded from the Father, but for Origen it meant that the Son and the Spirit exisited by derivation from the Father, and thus they had their origins (no pun intended) not in themselves but in the Father. It was not that big of a step then for Arius to take this idea and quit affirming what Origen still insisted on that the Son (or the Logos, as Origen spoke of him) never had a beginning
Wherefore we have always held that God is the Father of his only-begotten Son, who was born indeed of him, and derives from what he is, but wtihout any beginning, not only such as may be measured by any divisions of time, but even that which the mind alone can contemplate within itself.... Therefore we must believe that Wisdom was generated before any beginning that can be either comprehended or expressed.
Origen in First Principles​
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To Arius' view, if the Son originated from the Father, then he must have also originated after the Father, and so to Arius the Son was just one more creature, and a temporal creature at that, hence the famous dictum of Arianism: "There was a time when the Son was not."

It was into this fray, a slippery slope moving away from the Biblical teaching regarding the Logos that first Arius' bishop, Alexander, stepped to correct the priest and then a young deacon in Alexander's service, Athanasius, arose to defend what the church saw as a key understanding of the Logos that he was not created but had always been.

It was Athanasius who distinguised between the ideas of "generation" and "creation". Athanasius argued that this generation of the Logos (and by inference the Spirit as well, though no one was arguing about the Spirit at the time) was eternal and internal to God, whereas creation was in time and external to God. The Son was therefore homoousios (being of the same substance) and co-eternal with the Father, not simply homoiousios (being of similar substance to God) as some Arians claimed.

Note: the only difference between those two Greek words is the letter 'iota'. But it is the between Christ being God and Christ being like God.

[Now, that's a lot for one post, and it just scratches the surface of the process that the church went through over a period of about 300 years. If you find it interesting, understandable, and worthy of your time to read, I can expand on it for you. However, if so, I ask you to remember I am not writing to argue a point as being one that I am proposing, but because you have asked for this history which includes the history of the understanding of Christian thought and a little bit of politics in the process. So, I'm not asking if it makes ontological sense to you or anyone else, but only if you are able to follow what the respective parties were talking about with each other and why each thought it was important.]
 
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Thats a interesting post Grace, and I never knew the fine detail of it before, so thanks for that.

Are you sure you dont wanna argue it, cos I have my argueing boots on. :D
 
Grace Seeker said:
I'm not sure I understand your question. Christians would say that whenever you were looking into the face of Jesus, that you were in fact looking into the face of God himself.
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the meaning i meant for: if jesus so powerful and where should God puts his face? mean if jesus has a power, so where should God puts his face...of shameful...because Jesus teach the people...Worship one true God,your God and my God...He is Elah(Allah).... why should jesus have to die for people wash away the sins of the world.?..Jesus doesnt have to be so dignified/possessing to show that he has to die on the Cross to show feelings that he's a saviour...Jesus is just a prophet of Allah...he's Weak..and he do a lotsa miracle because of God's power..is From Allah.:coolious:
 
What do christians understand of this?

"I can of mine own self do nothing : as I hear , I judge : and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me."

"I am the vine, you are the branches ; he who abides in me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing ."
 
Meh, even if its polytheism, polytheism has lotsa pluses and few minuses.

Pour Example:
1)More ears to listen to prayers.
2)More miracles.
3)More stuff to go around.
4)You’d get to pick and choose which gods you want to worship.
5)Gods could compete over you!
6)Some gods might be friendlier
7) Some might have a buy now-pray later deal or other benifits like Tax Free paradise or allow bacon,(although most gods do actually hate bacon)
 
barney said:
Meh, even if its polytheism, polytheism has lotsa pluses and few minuses.

Pour Example:
1)More ears to listen to prayers.
2)More miracles.
3)More stuff to go around.
4)You’d get to pick and choose which gods you want to worship.
5)Gods could compete over you!
6)Some gods might be friendlier
7) Some might have a buy now-pray later deal or other benifits like Tax Free paradise or allow bacon,(although most gods do actually hate bacon)
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:laugh:
 
barney said:
Meh, even if its polytheism, polytheism has lotsa pluses and few minuses.

Pour Example:
1)More ears to listen to prayers.
2)More miracles.
3)More stuff to go around.
4)You’d get to pick and choose which gods you want to worship.
5)Gods could compete over you!
6)Some gods might be friendlier
7) Some might have a buy now-pray later deal or other benifits like Tax Free paradise or allow bacon,(although most gods do actually hate bacon)
Click to expand...

you missed some of the best part Barney!

one of the gods allows another one to be sacrificed! this is done as "payment" for all "lawbreaking!" in doing so, you can claim that "ALL the law" has been fulfilled! NOW, you can obey ANY laws that you feel like!

and as a bonus, you bring the sacrificed god BACK TO LIFE! you may now either worship thru him or just worship him directly!

AND if anyone tries to question this, you claim the "HE" was the real god in the 1st place! [as was each of the other gods ^o)]

you may now feel free to adopt any pagan custom that you want and as long as you are doing it to worship the minor god/killed now the major god, it's KOOL!

what a concept! a designer god so to speak!

why didn't we think of this before?

:w:
 
anatolian- just as my words are under the authority/proceed from my mind, Jesus GOD's WORD in the flesh was on earth to fufill GOD's plan of salvation.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit are always in sync, working towards the same end.

Did you read all that goes with that verse?

John 15

The Vine and the Branches
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
 
YusufNoor said:
you missed some of the best part Barney!

one of the gods allows another one to be sacrificed! this is done as "payment" for all "lawbreaking!" in doing so, you can claim that "ALL the law" has been fulfilled! NOW, you can obey ANY laws that you feel like!

and as a bonus, you bring the sacrificed god BACK TO LIFE! you may now either worship thru him or just worship him directly!

AND if anyone tries to question this, you claim the "HE" was the real god in the 1st place! [as was each of the other gods ^o)]

you may now feel free to adopt any pagan custom that you want and as long as you are doing it to worship the minor god/killed now the major god, it's KOOL!

what a concept! a designer god so to speak!

why didn't we think of this before?

:w:
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I dunno! it's the innovation thats sweeping teh nation!

I'd like mine to be one that pops out infinate doughnuts in paradise. By eating the doughnut you are physically eating him, but thats ok because he likes being scoffed. The worry would be that the schism between followers who beleive that Jam-filled is the truepath and the ones who think that Sprinkles are the only true way might end up in jamshed and crumbs rent asunder.
 

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