I don't understand this about the atheists

[ZJK24]

Hello. For the haughty atheists that deny God, I will like for you to help me understand this thing better. Is that the atheist doesn't believe in Heaven and Hell right? Since he denies God, he must deny Hell also. So then since the atheist mindset cannot conceive of Allah (swt) and his wrath what is to stop the atheist from doing what he wants in this world? I am quite poor so I may need to rob a bank, If I ever felt like killing someone I will refuse and discipline myself, I don't commit such things because I don't want to risk being in the hell of my creator even though in earnest I would ask and pray his forgiveness. But since the atheist doesn't believe in the Lord and has no concept of the Hell why he doesn't indulge all his worldly desires with impunity? Could this in fact be that the atheist deep down knows of day of judgement is coming and God's wrath awaits him and this holds him back and such?

 

[glo]

Welcome ZJK24. :thankyou:
I am not an atheist, but we have some very well articulated atheist members here, who will hopefully answer your question in due course.

From conversations I have had with atheist friends, I understand that the view is that we don't only refrain from committing EVIL because we fear God's judgement (or, for that matter, only do GOOD because we want God's reward).
We all have a hard-wired concept of what is right and wrong (yes, there are some differences, but on the whole the GOLDEN RULES are very similar for all of us - not matter what religion or none). We do good because we enjoy if others do good to us, and we (try to) avoid evil, because we don't like it being done to us ...

Ask yourself, do you ONLY do good because you want Allah's approval and don't want his punishment?
Or do you also do good just because it is right and good and makes for a happy life?

I have spoken to atheists who have said that if you ONLY do good because you fear God, then you don't really MEAN to be good from your heart at all. Food for thought ...

 

[Tyrion]

So then since the atheist mindset cannot conceive of Allah (swt) and his wrath what is to stop the atheist from doing what he wants in this world? I am quite poor so I may need to rob a bank, If I ever felt like killing someone I will refuse and discipline myself, I don't commit such things because I don't want to risk being in the hell of my creator even though in earnest I would ask and pray his forgiveness. But since the atheist doesn't believe in the Lord and has no concept of the Hell why he doesn't indulge all his worldly desires with impunity? Could this in fact be that the atheist deep down knows of day of judgement is coming and God's wrath awaits him and this holds him back and such?

So... Are you saying that if there was no God, you'd probably go around robbing banks and killing people? Really?

 

[Independent]

what is to stop the atheist from doing what he wants in this world?

I have no idea whether moral sense is hard wired into us, or purely cultural. Either way, in real life atheists are every bit as moral or immoral as anybody else. I'm not entirely atheist but I don't believe in heaven and I certainly don't believe in hell. Maybe I did when I was a kid. It doesn't affect my moral behaviour one way or the other.

For the haughty atheists that deny God

I see this kind of opinion expressed a lot here. It doesn't fit most atheists I know who are indistinguishable from religious people in almost every detail of their lives.

I could even say - is it not more arrogant of you to tell me that I am immoral, decadent, selfish, stupid, and blind when you've never even met me? I didn't reject Allah, I barely knew of his existence for the first 20 years of my life. If you were born in the west, you would almost certainly not have been a Muslim. So are you virtuous by accident of birth?

You think Islam is not understood in the west - I can guarantee you that atheisim and agnosticism are severely misunderstood in the Islamic world.

 

[ZJK24]

So... Are you saying that if there was no God, you'd probably go around robbing banks and killing people? Really?

No you misunderstand. I am not saying is right to do these things. We don't do them because we have been commanded not to by the Almighty. Since the atheist has no concept of the Almighty and can't even conceive of his existence then what does the atheist have to loose by NOT doing them should that need arise? The atheists say that they have no fear of hell and they answer to no celestial power so this must mean they can do as they please through life without a fear of God's judgement since there is no ****ation awaiting them?. You may say they fear getting sent to prison for a long time or something but still what stops them from doing even the sins you can't get into prison for like sleeping with many of their friends wife?

 

[ZJK24]

I have no idea whether moral sense is hard wired into us, or purely cultural. Either way, in real life atheists are every bit as moral or immoral as anybody else. I'm not entirely atheist but I don't believe in heaven and I certainly don't believe in hell. Maybe I did when I was a kid. It doesn't affect my moral behaviour one way or the other.


I see this kind of opinion expressed a lot here. It doesn't fit most atheists I know who are indistinguishable from religious people in almost every detail of their lives.

I could even say - is it not more arrogant of you to tell me that I am immoral, decadent, selfish, stupid, and blind when you've never even met me? I didn't reject Allah, I barely knew of his existence for the first 20 years of my life. If you were born in the west, you would almost certainly not have been a Muslim. So are you virtuous by accident of birth?

You think Islam is not understood in the west - I can guarantee you that atheisim and agnosticism are severely misunderstood in the Islamic world.

Jut my experience that many atheists tend to be really high-minded and look down on those of faith. Like Richard Dawkins, Salman Rushdie, Christopher Hitchens. You see, there are many prominent atheists who are like this. They give off the impression that they believe that those of faith only have that faith because they are 'less educated'. Some examples when atheists talk about flying spaghetti monsters and magical teapots implies they think they are dealing with only with those of child mindset.

 

[ZJK24]

Welcome ZJK24. :thankyou:
I am not an atheist, but we have some very well articulated atheist members here, who will hopefully answer your question in due course.

From conversations I have had with atheist friends, I understand that the view is that we don't only refrain from committing EVIL because we fear God's judgement (or, for that matter, only do GOOD because we want God's reward).
We all have a hard-wired concept of what is right and wrong (yes, there are some differences, but on the whole the GOLDEN RULES are very similar for all of us - not matter what religion or none). We do good because we enjoy if others do good to us, and we (try to) avoid evil, because we don't like it being done to us ...

Ask yourself, do you ONLY do good because you want Allah's approval and don't want his punishment?
Or do you also do good just because it is right and good and makes for a happy life?

I have spoken to atheists who have said that if you ONLY do good because you fear God, then you don't really MEAN to be good from your heart at all. Food for thought ...

Hi Glo. I understand what you are saying but still I need to understand what holds the atheist back in some certain situations. Let's say that an atheist has 3 kids and he has no money for their food and needs, he can get this money by raiding a liquor store. Now for us believers we prefer to pray to hope for a better change in our finances. Even if we went to that last resort of raiding the store we will feel we have let down our Lord and betrayed him by committing that terrible sin, so we would pray and ask always for his forgiveness. But the atheist has absolutely nobody to answer to and no hell to fear so there is nothing that prevents him morally except for taking the chance of getting caught...

 

[Independent]

Jut my experience that many atheists tend to be really high-minded and look down on those of faith. Like Richard Dawkins, Salman Rushdie, Christopher Hitchens.

As I've said elsewhere, Richard Dawkins is a very particular kind of atheist. Just like Bin Laden was not your average Muslim. (I didn't even know Rushdie and Hitchens were atheist.)

The average atheist/agnostic is an ordinary person who doesn't even want to talk about religion, let alone go on tv and make a fuss about it. Most of them were brought up in a religion but when they grew up, they no longer felt it was real to them. They are passive non believers. There never was an active rejection.

 

[Independent]

Let's say that an atheist has 3 kids and he has no money for their food and needs, he can get this money by raiding a liquor store.

I find this view totally bizarre. It's just not like that! Morality is not a monopoly of religion. In fact, if you wanted to stir it up a bit, you could argue that atheists are more moral than religious people because they aren't following the rules from fear of retribution - they do it because they think the rules are good and just.

Edit: Reading back I see this is more or less what glo already said...

 

[Hulk]

Why does your stats say "Religion:Other"? Are you muslim or not lol

 

[M.I.A.]

well its not just an athiesm question is it?

to think of it that way is kinda narrow minded.



maybe morality, good and evil is just the consequences that we see within our lives.

we have no understanding of what the greater implications are, unless we have thaught ahead.. in which case its a plan... intent.


i mean the difference between a bank robber and robin hood is in intent.

but the law treats them the same.


niether is caught until there luck runs out.



and that is something we should be aware of, weather you say you believe or not.. you are still under god.


haughty athiests may not deny god, only our perception of him.


and that is something to think about.


otherwise we flounder in our own underserved pride..

as you said, is it like they already know of a judgement day?


i would say our very souls do, but our ego's do not.



...but you are right, Haughty.


they will be in here any moment to sieze on an oppertunity of indecision and a lul in chest puffing.

like children we play.

and the higher you get, the more is at stake.


good vs bad right?



if you want a religious reference then look at the story of moses pbuh..

narrated in the quran at some length.



forgive the spelling mistakes, spell checker is not working for some reason.



you know we are constantly told in the quran that allah swt is the protector, the provider, the all powerful.

he is all that befalls us and all that is kept away.


so when you have to talk to an athiest the best thing you can do is try and explain that to them..the more you want to fight them the more you will see them reject you.

and if they are so busy fighting you they might not even think about who they were.

what they actually do.

why they would even need to change?


but we all become a part of the things we do.

 

[Tyrion]

No you misunderstand. I am not saying is right to do these things. We don't do them because we have been commanded not to by the Almighty. Since the atheist has no concept of the Almighty and can't even conceive of his existence then what does the atheist have to loose by NOT doing them should that need arise? The atheists say that they have no fear of hell and they answer to no celestial power so this must mean they can do as they please through life without a fear of God's judgement since there is no ****ation awaiting them?. You may say they fear getting sent to prison for a long time or something but still what stops them from doing even the sins you can't get into prison for like sleeping with many of their friends wife?

Judging from your posts, it doesn't sound like I've misunderstood. Is the only reason you don't kill people and rob banks because you think God will send you to hell for it? I think you have a pretty messed up view of morality... Theism does not hold a monopoly on basic moral behavior.

 

[GuestFellow]

Hello. For the haughty atheists that deny God, I will like for you to help me understand this thing better. Is that the atheist doesn't believe in Heaven and Hell right? Since he denies God, he must deny Hell also. So then since the atheist mindset cannot conceive of Allah (swt) and his wrath what is to stop the atheist from doing what he wants in this world? I am quite poor so I may need to rob a bank, If I ever felt like killing someone I will refuse and discipline myself, I don't commit such things because I don't want to risk being in the hell of my creator even though in earnest I would ask and pray his forgiveness. But since the atheist doesn't believe in the Lord and has no concept of the Hell why he doesn't indulge all his worldly desires with impunity? Could this in fact be that the atheist deep down knows of day of judgement is coming and God's wrath awaits him and this holds him back and such?

Hello,

Many atheists have been raised in an environment where rules based on religion has been set. I doubt there is any society that has not been affected by religious rules. I suppose most atheists do not do whatever they want because they are aware of the impact their behaviour would have (get arrested, put on trial, prison and so on).

However, I do think atheists are more likely to commit certain acts such as suicide because they do not believe in an afterlife and less likely to get involved in charitable activities.

 

[glo]

So... Are you saying that if there was no God, you'd probably go around robbing banks and killing people? Really?

Man, here I write a lengthy post ... and then you say it better in just ONE sentence!

 

[glo]

Now for us believers we prefer to pray to hope for a better change in our finances.

It is true that those who believe in God will turn to Him in prayer and with requests ... and hope and trust that God will provide (even if help may come through their own doing).
You are right that atheists do not follow this concept. If there is no God, then there is nobody to bail you out - other than yourself or other people.

However, that does NOT mean that an atheist is any more likely to choose illegal or sinful means to provide for himself and his family.

At the same token, believing in God does not prevent us from being sinful or committing wrong.
Would I steal food to feed my children, if they were starving and I saw no other solution? You bet I would! I might not rob a liquor store, but I would steal food from a supermarket.
I expect most people would.
So stealing is a sin - but compared to watching your children starve it is the lesser of two evils. I would simply trust that a merciful and all-knowing God would understand my motivations and intentions.

 

[PurpleCup]

Hello. For the haughty atheists that deny God, I will like for you to help me understand this thing better. Is that the atheist doesn't believe in Heaven and Hell right? Since he denies God, he must deny Hell also. So then since the atheist mindset cannot conceive of Allah (swt) and his wrath what is to stop the atheist from doing what he wants in this world? I am quite poor so I may need to rob a bank, If I ever felt like killing someone I will refuse and discipline myself, I don't commit such things because I don't want to risk being in the hell of my creator even though in earnest I would ask and pray his forgiveness. But since the atheist doesn't believe in the Lord and has no concept of the Hell why he doesn't indulge all his worldly desires with impunity? Could this in fact be that the atheist deep down knows of day of judgement is coming and God's wrath awaits him and this holds him back and such?

I was raised to not believe in God and to be alert when friends would invite me to their church in order to get me involved. After I went to College I felt awfully homesick and in constant fear of my new surroundings. I just felt so weak. I had no feeling anyone other than my parents cared about me. That is not a good feeling. I DO feel its wrong to raise kids with no religion. Life is too hard. I tried to read the Bible but it was so over my head. Its not something you can just pick up and read and feel any good from it. As time went on I met a Muslim and read some of his books and I was immediately attracted to what I was reading. In my heart I never wanted to be a Career woman, rather a stay at home Mom was my calling.
Learning to believe God is around you watching you , there for you is not easy to adopt when you never believed. So I would be very vigilant to remember to say, "Alhamdollilah", "Bismillah" all the time. As time went on I was more cognizant of God.
I really did not have a feeling for how God helped me until I was tested with aweful gut wrenching news that would make anyone cry a million tears. And I sat on the edge of the bed and asked God to make me stop crying, make me feel calm and worry not at all. And God did just that. I was amazingly peaceful.
This happened again rather recently and I felt WOW this is so cool! This is stuff people could talk about in the past and I would roll my eyes. I would never believe in such. But wow its so true! I just think that feeling is believing!

 

[Hulk]

Actually I understand what OP is trying to say.. Basically supposedly when you're an atheist your morals are based on your own understanding. This is the same reason why many atheists say people who believe in religions are stupid because their morals are based on a book written so and so years ago.

Based on this concept, an "atheist" mind can construct a logic that might justify the killing of innocent people as long as there might be a "positive" outcome. That said, those who claim to follow a religion are not safe from this boat either.

They might ignore the law given to them and make up their own based on their own "understanding".

Now don't misunderstand what I say to mean that Islam promotes following without understanding. Certainly not, that's why there are scholars who discuss texts in an effort to bring about the best understanding, emphasizing the importance of knowledge.

 

[Pygoscelis]

I am happy to see so many Muslims and Christians here understanding that morality is not exclusive to the religious. I actually don't have much to add to what Glo, Tyrion, and Independent already did. I am doubly glad to see so many perplexed at the OP, as it equates morality to obedience. That confusion happens in fewer religious people than I once thought. It is one of the things that scares me most about religious belief though.

And I have to ask the OP the same question I asked in the other thread (which apparently he hasn't read or he'd not have posted this one):

If your God asked you to kill your family, would you do it?

If your God demanded something of you that you would otherwise say is immoral, would you do it?

Can you conceive of anything God could demand of you that you would refuse to obey?

Is God Good because he stands for what is Good, or is Good Good because its what God demands?

And as asked above, if there was no God, would you truly have no moral sense?

Obedience to power (even ultimate power, such as a God) or to the in group is not the same thing as morality. When people equate the two, I think that is when ideology (be it religious, nationalistic or whatever) can lead to atrocity, like flying planes into buildings, getting people to drink poisoned cool aid, killing babies, hunting witches, gassing Jews, slaughtering first nations people, oppressing Palestinians etc. We need to always be watchful not to let our personal sense of morality get buried so deep beneath ideology or group identity.

However, I do think atheists are more likely to commit certain acts such as suicide because they do not believe in an afterlife and less likely to get involved in charitable activities.

I agree atheists would seem to be more likely to be ok with killing themselves if it came to that for them. I don't know what the actual data is but I can see why you'd think that. I do know that atheists are more likely to support euthenasia in principle (in practice is another matter). As for charity, perhaps. I would say definitely yes if you define Charity as including religious causes like saving souls, etc. Otherwise, maybe yes, maybe no. You would have an added reason to do good deeds if you thought you'd get points for it, but as glo said, that wouldn't really be charity in a true sense, but a selfish desire for those points. It also may keep some sociopaths or nasty people in line, but really if we look at history, it usually doesn't. They usually just reinterpret the scripture to fit the nasty things they already want to do.

Also, ZJK24 mentioned praying for foregiveness from God after a religious person robs a liquor store. I have to ask, what good does that do the liqour store? If you slash somebody's tires, praying to your God for forgiveness doesn't do anything for them. It doesn't buy them new tires. If you feel guilty and seek foregiveness (as a robber should), then it is the victim that should be compensated and begged for foregiveness, not some God they may or may not even believe exists.

 

[Logikon]

So then since the atheist mindset cannot conceive of Allah (swt) and his wrath what is to stop the atheist from doing what he wants in this world?

1. The morals hard wired into our brain.

2. The law.

I don't feel I need to elaborate on these answers.

Peace

 

[CosmicPathos]

So... Are you saying that if there was no God, you'd probably go around robbing banks and killing people? Really?

I would.