I think this must be a lie

[caroline]

Someone just told me that it is a punishable crime for a Muslim to convert to another religion. This person said that in some cases a Muslim man can be put to death for converting to another religion. Is this true?

I don't believe it.

 

[- Qatada -]

I think you might find this useful, however if you just want a brief summary. The article explains that the one who rebels against the state (i.e. commits treason) is the one to be punished. This is also similar in countries such as the USA where if someone commits treason against the country faces the death penalty.


Here's the article:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/4738-islam-apostasy.html

In order to understand this issue, we need to examine the Islamic law on apostasy. Since religion is looked on as a personal affair in western society, the notion of state intervention in one's personal choice would naturally seem excessive. However, from the Islamic perspective, a number of points must be observed with regard to apostasy:

1. Islam has never compelled anyone to accept the religion. Anyone who becomes a Muslim does so purely through objective study of the religion. As Allah has informed us in the Qur'an:

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.
10:99 So would you (O Muhammad) then compel people to become believers?

Likewise, Islam encourages its followers to reflect and contemplate upon the universe around us and to ponder over the beauty of the Qur'anic message:

47:24 Do they not ponder over the Qur'an or are their hearts locked up?

51:20-21. And on earth are signs for those endowed with inner-certainty; and [likewise there are signs] in yourselves, do you not observe?

29:20 Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.

Thus, Islam requires that one's faith be constructed upon logical investigation and study of the universe in which we live. Through logical contemplation, one realizes the supreme authority of the Creator and the veracity of Muhammad's (saws) claim to prophethood. Thus we find that, in the history of Islam, no knowledgeable Muslim has ever left Islam. The only cases we find of former Muslims are people who were never practicing Muslims in the first place, nor did they ever have a good understanding of Islam. Yet on the other hand, the list of educated converts to Islam is immense, and it includes educated leaders such as priests, rabbis and atheists.

2. Those who have left Islam have historically fallen under three categories: those who left having never properly understood the religion often due to social circumstances, those who faked a conversion into Islam in order to undermine the Islamic community from within, and those who left to support opposing forces in battle against the Muslims. Because of the first category, Islam requires that the person who has chosen to forsake the religion be consulted with in order that his doubts may be clarified to him if there is any specific issue of confusion, or so that he may learn the proper Islamic teachings that he may otherwise have not been exposed to. As for the second and third category, this was the original reason behind the Prophet's statement on apostasy. The Qur'an records (3:72) that the Jews of Madinah decided to initiate the practice of pretending to accept Islam and then publicly declare their rejection of it, so as to destroy the confidence of the newly-converted Muslims. Thus, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh ruled that a punishment should be announced so that those who decide to accept Islam do so because of a firm conviction not in order to harm the Muslim community from within.

3. Coming to the actual law of apostasy, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh did say, in the above historical context, "Whoever replaces his religion, execute him" (Bukhari, Abu Dawud) but how exactly do we understand this statement and does it conflict with the principles of freedom? The Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself clarified this statement in another hadith narrated in Sahih Muslim where he mentioned that the one who was to be fought against was the one who "abandons his religion and the Muslim community". It should be noted that every country has maintained punishments, including execution, for treason and rebellion against the state (See Mozley and Whitley's Law Dictionary, under "Treason and Treason Felony," pp. 368-369). Islam is not just a set of beliefs, it is a complete system of life which includes a Muslim's allegiance to the Islamic state. Thus, a rejection against that would be akin to treason. Rebellion against God is more serious than rebellion against one's country. However, one who personally abandons the faith and leaves the country would not be hunted down and assassinated, nor would one who remains inside the state conforming to outward laws be tracked down and executed. The notion of establishing inquisition courts to determine peoples' faith, as done in the Spanish Inquisition, is something contrary to Islamic law. As illustrated by the historical context in which it was mandated, the death penalty is mainly for those who collaborate with enemy forces in order to aid them in their attacks against the Islamic state or for those who seek to promote civil unrest and rebellion from within the Islamic state. When someone publicly announces their rejection of Islam within an Islamic state it is basically a challenge to the Islamic government, since such an individual can keep it to themselves like the personal affair it is made out to be.

4. From Islamic history, we can gain a better understanding of how this law has been implemented. Although the Prophet Muhammad pbuh threatened the death penalty in response to the attempts against the Muslim community, no such executions took place in his time (Imam Shawkani, Nayl Al-Awtar, vol. 7, p. 192) even though there is a report that a Bedouin renounced Islam and left Madinah unharmed in his time (Fath Al-Bari vol. 4, p.77 and vol. 13 p. 170; Sahih Muslim biSharh An-Nawawi, vol. 9, p. 391). Thus, we find that context plays an important role in determining how to deal with apostates. The case of one who enlists nations to fight against the Islamic state is more serious, for example. That is why the scholars of the Hanafi school of thought felt that the punishment only applies to the male apostate and not the female apostate because the latter is unable to wage war against the Islamic state. If someone simply has some doubts concerning Islam, then those doubts can be clarified.​

So an Islamic state is certainly justified in punishing those who betray the state, committing treason and support enemy forces. As for anyone else, if they do not publicly declare their rejection of Islam, the state has no interest in pursuing them; if their case does become public, however, then they should be reasoned with and educated concerning the religion so that they have the opportunity to learn the concepts they may not have understood properly and they can be encouraged to repent.

From another of my posts:

If a predominantly Christian country were going to execute a former Christian who converted to another religion (in this hypothetical case, Islam) would you be ok with that?

As a side note, this has already happened, examples include the spanish inquisition. But on to your question...

First of all, the law on apostasy has been explained here and here. It is commonly taken out of context, but the point to note is that the Prophet Muhammad (saws) clarified that the one to be punished was the one who rebelled against the community. This is quite similar to state laws on treason. A state is justified in taking action against those who pose a significant threat. But the idea of setting up an inquisition to examine the beliefs of the people is against Islamic teachings, so someone who personally changes their religious convictions will be insignificant in the eyes of the state. It is the one who publically announces his rebellion, stirring civil unrest, who must be opposed. While the Christian inquisitions were bent on examining (through the use of torture) the beliefs of those Muslims and Jews who outwardly professed conversion to Christianity, in an Islamic state, someone who even outwardly professes acceptane of Islam is left alone because they cause no harm to society, and the Islamic state is only interested in the security of its society.

If someone poses a threat to a state's security, then they are justified in taking action against them. But if someone changes their personal religious views, then it is quite extreme for the state to attempt to pry into the hearts of its citizens to determine their faith and punish them.

_______

Material from this post has been added to this article:
http://www.load-islam.com/artical_d...ection=wel_islam&subsection=Misconceptions#28​

 

[caroline]

Thank you!

 

[khairullah]

Someone just told me that it is a punishable crime for a Muslim to convert to another religion. This person said that in some cases a Muslim man can be put to death for converting to another religion. Is this true?

Yes, it is a crime to leave Islam. Those who leave Islam sometimes are misguided by others or raised without proper Islamic education.

I don't believe it.

This punishment is also prescribed in the BIBLE and TORAH for Christians and Jews.
Not only Muslims.

"And he should go and worship other gods and bow down to them or to the sun or the moon or all the army of the heavens, and you must stone such one with stones and such one must die. (Deuteronomy 17:3-5)"

Those who leave Islam must be put to death, because there is no reason to leave Islam.

 

[glo]

I wonder whether the replies given are rather cagey ... and very quickly pointing towards Bible verses in the OT which also call for the death penalty.
The death penalty for apostates is a topic which doesn't sit well with most people in the 21st century ...

I do not know of any instances when Christians or Jews who left their religion were killed (although that, of course, doesn't mean it doesn't happen)

However, there seem to be many accounts of Muslim apostates being killed around (unless those are all fabricated lies).

Can I perhaps add to Caroline's question by asking, on what grounds Muslim apostates are still killed today?
Does this just happen in Muslim countries?
If Britain became a Muslim country, would it happen here too?

And how do you (the reader of this sentence) personally feel about the death penalty for apostates? Do you think it is right? Justified?
If it happened to your brother/mother/best friend, would you support it?

I hope you don't mind. Those who know me better, know how I love to ask questions!

Peace

 

[Talib_Rayhan]

When I turned to Islam, I read that a Muslim could turn to another religion and be allowed back to Islam once... But if he/she was to turn his/her back again, That Allah (SWT) would not accept them.

Is there any truth to this?

 

[caroline]

I'll be honest. I am doing as much research as possible on both Christianity and Islam because I've been feeling very strongly about converting to Islam. I'm looking at both religions as honestly as possible and to tell the truth there have been several times when I've thought, "Why would I want to join a group that I could be executed for leaving?"

Yeah it bothers me. There are things about Christianity that have REALLY been bothering me. And there are so many things about Islam that I really love and that make so much SENSE.

The death for leaving Islam is one of the really big stumbling blocks for me. I'll be real. I know the Old Testament has the same demand and look at the Inquisition and all.

It's all so confusing.

 

[muslim1]

I Can I perhaps add to Caroline's question by asking, on what grounds Muslim apostates are still killed today?
Does this just happen in Muslim countries?
If Britain became a Muslim country, would it happen here too?

And how do you (the reader of this sentence) personally feel about the death penalty for apostates? Do you think it is right? Justified?
If it happened to your brother/mother/best friend, would you support it?

I hope you don't mind. Those who know me better, know how I love to ask questions!

Peace

This is not applied in any muslim country! This point is a big subject of debate and details in Islamic Constitution.

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

I do not know of any instances when Christians or Jews who left their religion were killed (although that, of course, doesn't mean it doesn't happen)

However, there seem to be many accounts of Muslim apostates being killed around (unless those are all fabricated lies).

im not sure if i like the hidden message behind that

And how do you (the reader of this sentence) personally feel about the death penalty for apostates? Do you think it is right? Justified?
If it happened to your brother/mother/best friend, would you support it?

yes,yes i would!

 

[ummzayd]

I wonder whether the replies given are rather cagey ... and very quickly pointing towards Bible verses in the OT which also call for the death penalty.
The death penalty for apostates is a topic which doesn't sit well with most people in the 21st century ...

I do not know of any instances when Christians or Jews who left their religion were killed (although that, of course, doesn't mean it doesn't happen)

However, there seem to be many accounts of Muslim apostates being killed around (unless those are all fabricated lies).

Can I perhaps add to Caroline's question by asking, on what grounds Muslim apostates are still killed today?
Does this just happen in Muslim countries?
If Britain became a Muslim country, would it happen here too?

And how do you (the reader of this sentence) personally feel about the death penalty for apostates? Do you think it is right? Justified?
If it happened to your brother/mother/best friend, would you support it?

I hope you don't mind. Those who know me better, know how I love to ask questions!

Peace

peace

I don't recall hearing about any apostates being prosecuted since the case of the man in afghanistan who was pardoned or something?

The issue of apostasy is just not as simplistic as some people make out. For a certainty there were apostates at the time of the Prophet and he did not order their execution. And the qur'an speaks of punishments of apostates in terms of the next life only. It is not simply a question of choosing a different way of life other than Islam, it is when people who were practising Muslims become enemies of Islam. That would certainly call for punishment, and Allah knows best.

Also, in order for anyone to apostate from Islam they have to have been true believing and practising Muslims in the first place. So many Muslims are just brought up culturally Muslim, even if they have the outward signs of Islam like hijab and praying 5 times, it doesn't touch their hearts at all. so if they become Christians can they really be said to be apostates? After all, what Muslim parent takes their child to one side at an appropriate time and gives them the choice as to whether they want to be Muslims or not? and if they do, warn them that they might face execution if they change their minds in the future?

People change religion all the time. A Christian may decide to take the shahada, and then later on change his/her mind and go back to Christianity. does that deserve the death penalty? I don't believe so. If that was the case, then it should be made clear at the point of taking the shahada. and I for one think I might well have turned round and run if I had been told that.

We all know that faith has its ups and downs. And the words and actions of other people can have a big effect on our own faith. As a new Muslim I remember being absolutely devastated at times by the things I read, saw and heard from Muslims. As a matter of fact, the first 2 years as a Muslim were terribly hard for me because of that. It took time before I was able to ignore Muslims and concentrate on the qur'an and the sunnah.

sorry for the rambling, I have no idea if I answered even one of your questions!

peace

 

[aadil77]

yes^ this only applies in muslim countries

 

[Nájlá]

i dont know nothing about that but all i know is i am muslim and i will stay muslim until i die

 

[Malaikah]

Can I perhaps add to Caroline's question by asking, on what grounds Muslim apostates are still killed today?
Does this just happen in Muslim countries?
If Britain became a Muslim country, would it happen here too?

Hi Glo,

I'm no expert, but I can tell you that not anyone call kill an apostate- it can only be done by the relevant authority (like, it can be ordered by a judge or something, not some bloke who lives across the street).

Before the person is sentenced to death they are debated by people who have knowledge and if they return to Islam than that is accepted of them and they are not harmed. In other word, if an apostate is caught and does not want to die, all they have to do is pretend to return to Islam, even if they don't mean it and they will not be harmed. Not that I am promoting lying, of course.

And how do you (the reader of this sentence) personally feel about the death penalty for apostates? Do you think it is right? Justified?

If it is correct and from Allah then of course I feel it is right and justified. However at the moment I do not know enough about the difference of opinion regarding whether it is simply the apostate who is sentenced to death or the apostate who rebels against the state (i.e. commits treason).

If it happened to your brother/mother/best friend, would you support it?

I have no right to stand in the way of justice just because my family member is the one to suffer. I ask Allah to protect my family from such an evil fate (apostacy, not death).

I wonder whether the replies given are rather cagey ... and very quickly pointing towards Bible verses in the OT which also call for the death penalty.

What do you mean by cagey? :? Also, do you deny that the in the OT God did command that apostates be put to death? And, knowing that it was ordained by God at one stage, can you please answer your question too:

And how do you (the reader of this sentence) personally feel about the death penalty for apostates? Do you think it is right? Justified?

Thanks!

 

[glo]

Thank you all for your comments.

I am not going to reply to each poster individually, because I find that snowballs over time and gets too time consuming ...

There seem to be contradictory messages here:

This is not applied in any muslim country!

yes^ this only applies in muslim countries

Also:

There is no support for the death penalty for Apostasy in the Quran

I can tell you that not anyone call kill an apostate- it can only be done by the relevant authority (like, it can be ordered by a judge or something, not some bloke who lives across the street)

I understand that this is a much debated issue. I am trying to understand rather than be inflammatory ...

Are people here saying that apostates are not killed today at all (either according to the court, or because people take justice into their own hands), and that any accounts of such incidents are false?
Or are people saying that such incidents do happen, but shouldn't because it is unislamic?

I found this on the religious tolerance site:

Traditional treatment of apostates according to Shari'a law:
Islam teaches that a newborn has an innate ability to know and believe in his creator, and to understand good and evil. Muhammad (pbuh) stated: "Every child is born with the believing nature...it is his parents who make him into a Jew or a Christian." There is to be no force used to convert a non-believer to Islam. The Qur'ãn, quoted previously, prohibits the use of compulsion to force a person or a society to accept Islam.

However, once a person freely "enters into the fold of Islam, the rules change." 1 The word "Islam" means "submission to the will of God." The Qur'ãn says that: "No believing man and no believing woman has a choice in their own affairs when Allãh and His Messenger have decided on an issue." (33:36) On the issue of apostasy, "Islam clearly says: No! You cannot become an apostate." 1 Apostasy is viewed as a form of treason.

In many predominately Muslim countries, the punishment for apostasy is death.

Assuming that the individual:

*Was a Muslim
*Openly rejects Islam,
*Has made this decision freely and without coercion,
*Is aware of the nature of his/her statements, and
*Is an adult. then the penalty prescribed by Shari'a (Islamic) law is execution for men and life imprisonment for women. Drunkards and mentally ill persons are excluded from this punishment because they are considered to be not responsible for their statements.

A person born of a Muslim parent who later rejects Islam is called a "Murtad Fitri" (Apostate - natural). This is viewed a treason against God. They are given a second chance. If they repent of their decision, they will be released. A person who converted to Islam and later rejected the religion is a "Murtad Milli" (apostate - from the community.) This is viewed as treason against the community. Male apostates are executed even if they repent. Female apostates are released from imprisonment if they repent.

Additional factors:

*If either spouse apostatize from Islam, a divorce is automatic.
*If both apostatize they are generally allowed to stay married.
*An under-aged male is imprisoned, and only executed if he remains an apostate when he becomes of age.
*The will of a male apostate is not valid.
*A female apostate's will remains valid.
*In the rare instances when an apostate is executed, it is traditionally done by severing his neck with a sword.
*Among Malikites, Shafi'ites, and Hanbalites, adult women receive the same penalty as men: execution.
*The Shi'ite schools of law allow for Islamic law towards apostates to be applied in non-Muslim countries. The majority "Sunnites do not believe in extraterritorial jurisdiction." 1

Justification for the death penalty is mainly based on two Hadith texts:

"Whoever changes his religion shall be killed." (Abu Dawud)
"It is not lawful to kill a man who is a Muslim except for one of the three reasons: Kufr (disbelief) after accepting Islam....." (Abu Dawud).

http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_apos3.htm

The Council of ex-Muslims of Britain says this:

Those of us who have come forward with our names and photographs represent countless others who are unable or unwilling to do so because of the threats faced by those considered 'apostates' - punishable by death in countries under Islamic law.

Why would ex-Muslims be so fearful of declaring publically that they have left Islam ... when there is no compulsion in religion?

Again, I am stressing that I do not intend to be inflammatory!
I just wonder how many people here are really sure about what Islam says about apostasy - judging by the conflicting responses this thread is getting.

God's peace to you all

 

[glo]

What do you mean by cagey? :?

Perhaps cagey isn't the correct term. What I mean is that some people seem to divert the conversation to OT laws, rather than address the actual topic in hand - apostasy according to Islam!
It makes me wonder whether people do this, because ultimately the topic of apostasy is a very uncomfortable one, and doesn't site well, at least not with Brits in the 21st century.

The OT laws, arguably should be discussed in the Comparative religions section.
This is the Discover Islam section ...

Also, do you deny that the in the OT God did command that apostates be put to death? And, knowing that it was ordained by God at one stage, can you please answer your question too:

And how do you (the reader of this sentence) personally feel about the death penalty for apostates? Do you think it is right? Justified?

Thanks!

Please find my personal answer here:

Also: do you think it is immoral to own slaves and kill unbelievers?

Are you asking me personally?
Then the answer most certainly is, yes, I do think it is immoral ...

The thread can be found in the Comparative Religions section.
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/54790-why-christianity-fake-2.html

Peace and Goodwill to you, sister

 

[snakelegs]

i find this very problematical as well. the qur'an makes it very clear that punishment is by god.
this problem re: execution for apostates comes from the hadith, which most muslims hold as either equally important or of next-in-line of importance to the qur'an.

 

[ummzayd]

Perhaps cagey isn't the correct term. What I mean is that some people seem to divert the conversation to OT laws, rather than address the actual topic in hand - apostasy according to Islam!
It makes me wonder whether people do this, because ultimately the topic of apostasy is a very uncomfortable one, and doesn't site well, at least not with Brits in the 21st century.

Peace

I do think it is legitimate to put a question back to the questioner, when what they are questioning and arguing against is actually found much less ambiguously in their own scriptures. Death for apostasy is not found in the qur'an. It is, however, found in the bible, commanded by God. I note that you believe God is capable of commanding something immoral. For a certainty many people would have been stoned to death because of what was written in the old testament, and I don't think that is irrelevant to this thread.

There is a difference of opinion on this and many other issues within Islam. I guess that is all you need to know. If you think that those Muslims who believe that apostates should be executed by the (Islamic) state are wicked and immoral - well that's your perogative. If you are trying to say that Islam is a wicked and cruel religion because of this issue, you are entitled to your opinion. It sounds to me like that is what you are out to prove (perhaps just to yourself) and the fact that not all Muslims believe Islam automatically demands the death penalty for apostasy just doesn't interest you. there are plenty of websites out there which support this point of view but I notice you don't bother with them.

peace


.

 

[Malaikah]

Perhaps cagey isn't the correct term. What I mean is that some people seem to divert the conversation to OT laws, rather than address the actual topic in hand - apostasy according to Islam!
It makes me wonder whether people do this, because ultimately the topic of apostasy is a very uncomfortable one, and doesn't site well, at least not with Brits in the 21st century.

No, they probably do it because they find it hypocritically for a Christian to criticize Islam for something that was ordered by God in their own bible!

Then the answer most certainly is, yes, I do think it is immoral ...

But what I don't understand is how you can consider something ordained by God as being immoral?:?

 

[glo]

But what I don't understand is how you can consider something ordained by God as being immoral?:?

Greetings, Malaikah

You will find my answer to this in the same post in the same thread I posted earlier (Did you follow the link and read it?)

Now, this is my personal understanding only. There may be Christians who would disagree with me - I cannot speak for those. I can only speak for myself.

I believe (according to what I wrote earlier) that we have the responsibility to seek God's will in every situation. That requires much more than just following a set of laws, and ticking them off as you go along ...

I am aware that if I felt so inclined I would not have to search long in scripture to find verses which seem to support hatred and threats against homosexuals, adulterers, non-believers, sinners in any way shape or form, etc, etc.
Some people do just that. Most don't. I certainly don't.

Through prayer and through the example of Jesus I just don't believe that is the right way.
That is my personal understanding and I take personal responsiblity for it.
I believe that one day I will have to justify myself before God for it.

And should he say "Why didn't you stone prostitutes,[apostates] and homosexuals like I instructed you?" or "Didn't I tell you clearly that Muhammed was my last Prophet?" - then all I can say is "Lord, I did the best I could to my best understanding ..."

I am not sure I have answered your question, but it has been very useful for me to ponder.
Thanks for bearing with me. I do have a habit of rambling ...

Peace

 

[H@fiz Aziz]

yes...