If Jesus Was God Then...

[gmcbroom]

Naidamar,
I'm actually trying to find a copy of that book. If there is an english translation I'll post the passages here if it's allowable per site guidelines. If there isn't then I'll see about getting it translated with my own funds no less and then post the passage here.
As for me not liking what your saying about the priests and bishops who have betrayed their vows and molested children or commited other vile acts. Truth be told, I don't care one way or the other. They are solely responsible for their actions and will be and are accountable to God on the Day of Judgement. But again, I won't condemn my Christian Faith because of the actions of a few whether that's a few hundred or even thousands. Remember, there are billions of Christians past and present and all are alive in Christ through baptism.

So I'll go ahead and ask. Moderators, if I find the information I'm seeking, do I have your permission to post it here. It'll only be used to show the early Catholic position and strictly on this Comparative religions sub forum. It may contain inflammatory language opposing the Islamic view. If I post this here strictly as a historical reference will I be sanctioned by this site or banned?
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

PS- Moderators, I'll be on holiday the next few days so I won't be able to respond. Can you PM your response as well as post it here?

 

[Ramadhan]

But again, I won't condemn my Christian Faith because of the actions of a few whether that's a few hundred or even thousands. Remember, there are billions of Christians past and present and all are alive in Christ through baptism.

All i did was destroying your argument that priests/doctor in church/popes/etc is trustworthy because they are inspired and protected by holy spirit.
Not only that, even your bible, written by unknown authors who you say are protected by holy spirit, are full of errors and contradictions.

It shows either this holy spirit is actually evil spirit, or the whole holy spirit business is a fantasy concocted by few scribes.

 

[gmcbroom]

Naidamar, you didn't destroy my argument or my faith for that matter. You just show that you don't understand the Bible or Sacred Tradition thats all. As your a muslim thats no surprise since your faith rejects Christianity, viewing it as corrupted. It would have to in order to claim to be its successor. Just as I'm sure Bahaism does the same with Islam.

Peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[جوري]

ou just show that you don't understand the Bible or Sacred Tradition thats all.

shouldn't god make the creed that he wants for humanity easy to be understood by paupers and kings alike? Shouldn't God safeguard it from error? Why do you need a group of theologians to decipher all that jargon and still come up so empty.. Islam is a successor to nothing. Islam is the religion that has always been. Only people render god one of a few or turn him into an ineffectual dying mortal!

all the best

 

[Ramadhan]

Naidamar, you didn't destroy my argument or my faith for that matter. You just show that you don't understand the Bible or Sacred Tradition thats all. As your a muslim thats no surprise since your faith rejects Christianity, viewing it as corrupted. It would have to in order to claim to be its successor. Just as I'm sure Bahaism does the same with Islam.

Actually i did.
You think john of damascus is right just because he was a priest, and a priest, you argued, is insprired and protected by holy spirit.

Meanwhile, I have shown you that is false, because lines of popes (representatives of god, catholics beleive) have done actions so evil that either holy spirit concept is false or that priests are not inspired by holy spirits.

Need I say more about paedophile priests, murderous rwandan nuns and priests, etc?

Unless, you are correct, it is catholic sacred tradition that I don't understand.

 

[gmcbroom]

Naidamar,
It is sacred tradition that you don't understand. That's no fault of your own as your just following the tenets of your faith. As I am following the tenets of mine.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[Ramadhan]

It is sacred tradition that you don't understand. That's no fault of your own as your just following the tenets of your faith. As I am following the tenets of mine.

so paedophilia, murdering innocents, incestuous relationships is catholic sacred tradition?

Glad I'm learning something new today.

 

[gmcbroom]

Naidamar,
Actually those actions are not Sacred Tradition. Those are the actions of men who have abused their authority and such men have existed throughout time in all walks of life. Regrettably, some of those men were priests and bishops. However I won't condemn the faith due to the actions of a few. Now, I know you don't share that opinion. You are of course entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[Ramadhan]

I understand that priests and popes are mere human.
You are the one who said that priests and popes are god's representatives, inspired and protected by holy spirit. And based on this premise, you claimed that John of Damascus must have been trustworthy because he was a priest inspired by holy spirit when he accused prophet Muhammad SAW as receiving knowledge from arian priests.

Now, you keep saying the same thing over and over again without actually tackle my argument, and you have not also addressed the accusations made by john of damascus.
repeatedly saying things over and over without evidence does not make it true.

 

[gmcbroom]

Naidamar,
Nor does it make it false. It just means until I get my hands on that book I won't argue further on that issue. I still stand by what I wrote earlier though it's understandable why you disagree with it.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[Ramadhan]

Naidamar,
Nor does it make it false. It just means until I get my hands on that book I won't argue further on that issue. I still stand by what I wrote earlier though it's understandable why you disagree with it.

take your time, it should not be too difficult.
I hope you are not one of those who have belief without evidence, logic and reason to back it up.

By the way, you were the one who kept bringing up this debate without actually tackling the problem of holy spirit-inspired priests.

 

[gmcbroom]

Naidamar,
I am indeed. Uhh..... worldly reason and faith are polar opposites Naidamar. This is part of the reason why I couldn't be a muslim. Your religion is too worldly. I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up by that atheist who posts here what's his name?.....Trumble?

Oh and I ordered a book on John of Damascus. Its a selection of his works so the reference mentioned earlier may be in there. I'll let you know when I find it.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[Ramadhan]

I am indeed. Uhh..... worldly reason and faith are polar opposites Naidamar.

ah, I am glad you are finally admitting that your faith in human as god does not have anything to do at all with your brain.
Now I understand why christians easily have faith in santa claus, flyiing reindeer, easter bunny, 25 december, christmas tree, evil popes, paedophile priests, money-spinning evangelists, etc etc.

This is part of the reason why I couldn't be a muslim. Your religion is too worldly. I'm surprised this hasn't been brought up by that atheist who posts here what's his name?.....Trumble?

what do you mean Islam is too worldly?
this is new to me, and maybe even too atheists too, which is why they never brought it up.

Can you please elaborate, or are you just talking out of faith again (that is, disconnecting your brain from everything else in your body)?

Oh and I ordered a book on John of Damascus. Its a selection of his works so the reference mentioned earlier may be in there. I'll let you know when I find it.

Great. Can't wait that we can finally discuss something, rather than your spewing your faith and then refusing to discuss it.

 

[gmcbroom]

Naidamar,
The book arrived today. It is called The Fathers Of The Church vol.37 St. John Of Damascus Writings. Translated by Frederic H. Chase,Jr. Catholic University of America Press. Washington, DC

Regrettably, I can't post it. I reviewed the rules before writing this. This site is meant to promote Islam. If I post what I just read in the book it would not promote Islam. It would give his opinion true. However, it also would back it up with evidence which only you as muslims could see as it concerns a faint carving of Aphrodite still visible at that time on the Ka'ba stone or Khabar. Forgive me if i'm wrong but only muslims are allowed there by law so only you can see it.

The section in the book is called on Heresies and the title referencing Islam is called the Ishamaelites and it starts on page 153-160. That's significant because it the other heresies listed run 1 to 2 pages at most so the fact that he devotes so many pages to it shows how much he talks on the subject.

Now in defense of Islam your right there were a lot of heresies he had to combat in his day. He lists over 103 different heresies Those are just in his time, imagine the heresies around now.

However, as a Catholic I would be remiss if I didn't learn all I could about The Church, everything. What I read just on this issue alone hasn't shaken my faith in Catholism.

Now as to my earlier remark about Islam being worldly I stand by that. Although all I have to point to it is the Islamic conquest and reference Tipu The Islamist who forcibally converted Mangalorean Catholics at Seringapatam according to the Bakur Manuscript he is credited with saying," All Musalmans should unite and consider, the annihilation of the Infidels as their sacred duty, labor to the utmost of their power, to accomplish that subject.

This is why the Indians invited the British to drive out the phantoms with swords who were causing trouble thoughout India. There is more but I trust I've made my point.

I apologize for writing this and do understand why I may be sanctioned or banned because of it. If I am banned Woodrow, know that it's been an honor coming here to this forum. I've learned alot about my own faith and a bit about yours. I didn't expect that.
Peace be with you.
gmcbroom

 

[Ramadhan]

The book arrived today. It is called The Fathers Of The Church vol.37 St. John Of Damascus Writings. Translated by Frederic H. Chase,Jr. Catholic University of America Press. Washington, DC

Regrettably, I can't post it. I reviewed the rules before writing this. This site is meant to promote Islam. If I post what I just read in the book it would not promote Islam. It would give his opinion true. However, it also would back it up with evidence which only you as muslims could see as it concerns a faint carving of Aphrodite still visible at that time on the Ka'ba stone or Khabar. Forgive me if i'm wrong but only muslims are allowed there by law so only you can see it.

The section in the book is called on Heresies and the title referencing Islam is called the Ishamaelites and it starts on page 153-160. That's significant because it the other heresies listed run 1 to 2 pages at most so the fact that he devotes so many pages to it shows how much he talks on the subject.

Now in defense of Islam your right there were a lot of heresies he had to combat in his day. He lists over 103 different heresies Those are just in his time, imagine the heresies around now.

However, as a Catholic I would be remiss if I didn't learn all I could about The Church, everything. What I read just on this issue alone hasn't shaken my faith in Catholism.

A lot of words there, but NONE is related to support your argument why you think John of damascus is correct when he accused the prophet SAW as being given knowledge by arian priest.

I am waiting.

Now as to my earlier remark about Islam being worldly I stand by that. Although all I have to point to it is the Islamic conquest and reference Tipu The Islamist who forcibally converted Mangalorean Catholics at Seringapatam according to the Bakur Manuscript he is credited with saying," All Musalmans should unite and consider, the annihilation of the Infidels as their sacred duty, labor to the utmost of their power, to accomplish that subject.

This is why the Indians invited the British to drive out the phantoms with swords who were causing trouble thoughout India. There is more but I trust I've made my point.

I apologize for writing this and do understand why I may be sanctioned or banned because of it. If I am banned Woodrow, know that it's been an honor coming here to this forum. I've learned alot about my own faith and a bit about yours. I didn't expect that.

This is also another round of words that are not related in any way to your charging that Islam is worldly.

You know, based on my observation from interactions with christians on forums and in real life, they do have a lot of words. I guess they have to, because they have no substance (truth) to back up anything they say.

 

[gmcbroom]

Naidamar,
That is understandably your opinion. You'll understand why I disagree.
Peace be with you
gmcbroom

 

[MustafaMc]

However, as a Catholic I would be remiss if I didn't learn all I could about The Church, everything. What I read just on this issue alone hasn't shaken my faith in Catholism.

If that is truly the case, then I have the perfect book for you, "Lost Christianities' by Bart Ehrman http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Christianities-Battles-Scripture-Faiths/dp/0195141830 . I am over half way through the book and am now reading about the victory of the proto-orthodox over the various 'heretical' groups around during the early years of the Christian faith.

 

[Ramadhan]

That is understandably your opinion. You'll understand why I disagree.

You keep saying you disagree without providing as much reasons, let alone evidence, why.
For example:

1. you believe prophet Muhammad SAW received knowledge from arian priest just because john of damascus said so and john of damascus couldnt be in error because priests are guided by holy spirit.
And when I said that the argument that priests are guided by holy spirit is false because, unless the holy spirit is also evil spirit, priests have done evil things and have been much in error and thus cannot be possibly guided by holy spirit, you replied that it is a matter of faith. umm.. ok.

2. When I asked where's your john of damascus' arguments/evidence, you came back with such fantasy drivels as faint picture of aphrodite on kabah, heresies, etc which are in itself can be best described as eliciting the response "huh??", not to mention that the first one is baseless and have nothing to do at all with your fantasy that prophet Muhammad SAW receiving knowledge from arian priests.

So, again, where's your evidence that prophet Muhammad SAW received knowledge from arian priest?
bring it on.

3. When I asked you to elaborate why you think Islam is worldly, you came up with fantasy story, and not based at all on any historical evidence, about how the indians invited the brits to drive out muslims from India. LOL. Even when the story is a fantasy, it does not even address why Islam is worldly.
No wonder you also believe in 3-in-god and easter bunnies when you can come up with such fantasy.

Just an advice:
God give you brains and intelligence. Use it.