If we are all theists, why are we following secular laws??

[QuranStudy]

This makes no sense. Are secular laws bringing us under good light under God?? These laws make no
sense. If people followed their own religion, then there would ne no needs of seperation between "church
as state." The world should be like the Middle Ages, where countries were somewhat divided by religion. A coherent community based on a religion would ensure peace and unity. There should be a Christian
Europe, a Jewish Untited States, Muslim Middle East and some SE Asia, a Hindu India. All atheists can move to China and North Korea. The "clash of civilizations" will lead to the world's demise, as brilliantly predicted by Samuel Huntington. Utopia is impoosible, but we can get one step closer to it via seperation of nations in terms of homogeneous Empires based on religion. Imn this way, all countries can impose their laws based on their holy scripture. Remember, God is greater.

 

[Jayda]

i would like to live somewhere run by catholic laws...

 

[Keltoi]

A Jewish United States? Why should there be a Jewish U.S.?

Anyway, the United States is a land of many peoples and many religions held together by a concept of personal freedom. If you don't want to live in a secular state, don't live there. I see no conflict between my faith and the freedom of my neighbor to worship a statue of a garden gnome if he so wishes.

 

[QuranStudy]

A Jewish United States? Why should there be a Jewish U.S.?

Because Jew control the United States. Even Ariel Sharon admitted the Jews control America. Might as well be their homeland

Anyway, the United States is a land of many peoples and many religions held together by a concept of personal freedom. If you don't want to live in a secular state, don't live there.

Yeah, that is why the clash of civilizations will end then world. Crusades, World Wars, Boxer rebellion, Sepoy Mutiny etc etc are just epitomes of this notion.

I see no conflict between my faith and the freedom of my neighbor to worship a statue of a garden gnome if he so wishes.

You cannot rule out the fact that religion do play a role in American politics. Wealthy evengelicals have great influence. No wonder why gay marriage and abotion is illegal and the govt refuse to fund stem cell research.

btw, IDK about Christianity, but most religions do tolerate other faiths.

 

[QuranStudy]

At this point, a furious Sharon reportedly turned toward Peres, saying "every time we do something you tell me Americans will do this and will do that. I want to tell you something very clear, don't worry about American pressure on Israel, we, the Jewish people control America, and the Americans know it."

http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/01/10/Sharon3.html

 

[Woodrow]

This makes no sense. Are secular laws bringing us under good light under God?? These laws make no
sense. If people followed their own religion, then there would ne no needs of seperation between "church
as state." The world should be like the Middle Ages, where countries were somewhat divided by religion. A coherent community based on a religion would ensure peace and unity. There should be a Christian
Europe, a Jewish Untited States, Muslim Middle East and some SE Asia, a Hindu India. All atheists can move to China and North Korea. The "clash of civilizations" will lead to the world's demise, as brilliantly predicted by Samuel Huntington. Utopia is impoosible, but we can get one step closer to it via seperation of nations in terms of homogeneous Empires based on religion. Imn this way, all countries can impose their laws based on their holy scripture. Remember, God is greater.

I am just curious as to why you refer to it a Jewish United State? There may more Muslims here than Jews. the numbers are difficult to count. The general opinion is there are at least 5 million, but it is probably much more. Also the USA Muslims tend to have above average income than any other emographic group and are rapidly becoming a political power.

Based on tallies of mosque membership and Muslim names, several national organizations estimate there are 4.5 million to 6 million American Muslims. Most live in a dozen big states, giving them the potential to make a difference in tight races. Aslam Abdullah, editor of the weekly Muslim Observer newspaper, says there are about 15 close races for Congress in districts where Muslims are concentrated and could cast decisive votes.

Source:http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-03-23-american-muslims-cover_x.htm?csp=19_wxia

The largest community of Jews live in the USA with 5,7 million. Many live in Eastern Europe and Western Europe, and there are between 200,000 and 300,000 on the African continent.

source: http://i-cias.com/e.o/judaism.htm


Muslims and the 2002 Midterm Elections


Muslims mainly voted Republican in 2000 because they have viewed the Democrats as the "party of welfare" and "loose morality." They supported Bush due to their resentment of "welfare," "taxes," and "social programs."

However, many Muslims admitted to me that their vote for Bush was a "big mistake." I doubt that they will vote Republican for a while. Post 9/11, Muslims realized that many individuals in the GOP share the same contempt for them that Republicans exhibit toward other minority groups, such as Blacks and Hispanics.

Muslims receive and resent derision from too many GOP leaders, and may well catapult Democrats to victory on Tuesday.

An article in the Christian Science Monitor explains, "A new study finds [Muslims are] wealthy, educated, growing fast. But old suspicion from 9/11 complicates their plight."

The same policies Bush is using to solidify his base and control the national dialogue undermine his support in a little-appreciated demographic. As the CSM reports:

"The aftermath of Sept. 11 and tension with Iraq has exposed a dual response to Muslims living here. There's both suspicion and outreach -- discrimination and efforts to bridge the religious divide."

Muslims represent a key, growing voting bloc.

"While no one knows how many Muslims live in the US -- estimates span 1.2 million to 10 million -- their numbers are growing fast. Between 1990 and 2000, the Muslim-origin population grew 40 percent, according to the new study by the Lewis Mumford Center for Comparative Urban and Regional Research at New York's University at Albany. And they're more integrated than larger minorities."

Their geographic concentration focuses Muslim voting power. "Four metropolitan regions -- Los Angeles, New York, Detroit, and Washington -- boast more than 100,000 American Muslims. A decade earlier, only Los Angeles could make that claim. Detroit's population includes more Muslims than virtually any city. But much smaller Jersey City, NJ, which saw a doubling of its Muslim population in the 1990s, now boasts the identical concentration: 2.8 percent."

Still, Muslim voters don't register on the pundits' radar screens. "Socioeconomic factors also make Muslims largely invisible here. They typically live in neighborhoods that are only 4.5 percent Muslim, according to the Mumford study, although that's changing as their numbers grow and they begin to create enclaves. Still, American Muslims are far less geographically segregated than Hispanics or African Americans."

Muslims enjoy "higher socioeconomic status" than other minority groups.

"On average, Muslims live in households earning $50,000 annually -- more than any significant minority except Asian, and only $2,000 less than non-Hispanic whi 1000 te households, according to Mumford data. American Muslims have lower poverty rates than either blacks or Hispanics, and more years of education than any of these groups, including whites and Asians."
See "America's elusive minority: Muslims," Laurent Belsie, The Christian Science Monitor: October 7, 2002: http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1007/p02s01-ussc.html

Source:http://www.mikehersh.com/printer_Will_Muslims_Catapult_Democrats_to_Victory.shtml

Although the vast majority of American citizens profess to be Christian. Muslims are making fast and powerfull in roads. I would suspect that there is more of a possibility for the USA to become an Islamic Nation than for it to become a Jewish Nation. The Muslim community is becoming politicaly active and in some areas does control the final vote.

 

[Keltoi]

Please stop using bogus Ariel Sharon qutoes.

Could you please elaborate on how the Crusades, World Wars, The Chinese Boxer Rebellion, etc have to do with the personal freedom?

The Constitution doesn't prohibit religious influence in American politic, it prohibits a nationalized religious institution.

 

[Jayda]

Because Jew control the United States. Even Ariel Sharon admitted the Jews control America. Might as well be their homeland

by that reasoning idi amin was king of scotland

 

[QuranStudy]

I am just curious as to why you refer to it a Jewish United State? There may more Muslims here than Jews. the numbers are difficult to count. The general opinion is there are at least 5 million, but it is probably much more. Also the USA Muslims tend to have above average income than any other emographic group and are rapidly becoming a political power.

It doesnt really matter if they'r more Muslims in USA. The fact is that Jews have way more influence on American politics. American stromg pro-Israeli position affirms this. The Jews have more interest groups and lobby power (AIPAC) than any Muslim group. Jews also own the large business and corporations. And let's not forget that the Jews own the media. Thus, the United States is well suited for Jews, despite their small population. Also note that there are more Jews in New York than the entire of Israel.

The Muslim community is becoming politicaly active and in some areas does control the final vote.

Muslims here are not powerful at all. President Bush's classic "Islamofascist" labelling clearly exemplifies this.

Please stop using bogus Ariel Sharon qutoes.

Bogus?? Can you prove this?? Googling this quote will give you hundreds of results.

Could you please elaborate on how the Crusades, World Wars, The Chinese Boxer Rebellion, etc have to do with the personal freedom?

I used those events to epitomize the notion of "clash of civilizations." A very similar thing is going on today (West vs. Islamic world).

The Constitution doesn't prohibit religious influence in American politic, it prohibits a nationalized religious institution.

Yes, that is why we have "One Nation under God" in our money and plege of allegiance. Gimme a break.

 

[Keltoi]

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=766&x_context=2

here is a link debunking the so-called quote, along with many others. It won't change your mind, but there it is.

Now back on topic. "One Nation Under God" is an expression of the Christian nature of the country at the time of its creation. However, the founding fathers did not support a religious institution, such as the Church of the United States. That is what the separation of church and state is all about, stopping a religious institution from having too much influence on government. This doesn't mean that religious people cannot run for office or lobby politicians to consider their religious beliefs in decisions made.

 

[QuranStudy]

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_ar...66&x_context=2

here is a link debunking the so-called quote, along with many others. It won't change your mind, but there it is.

What makes your source anymore credible that the hundreds of sources that claim otherwise??

Now back on topic. "One Nation Under God" is an expression of the Christian nature of the country at the time of its creation.

And this still exists.

However, the founding fathers did not support a religious institution, such as the Church of the United States. That is what the separation of church and state is all about, stopping a religious institution from having too much influence on government. This doesn't mean that religious people cannot run for office or lobby politicians to consider their religious beliefs in decisions made.

Just because they're no religious institution in govt. doesnt mean that religion is important. Our pledge of allegiance, for instance, illustrates this. Inherently, religion is essential. A presidential candidate with atheistic beliefs will never become president.

 

[wilberhum]

One of the negative affects of religion is that some theists feel that they should not have to coexist with people of different faiths. It is just another form of serration. No different than saying all Blacks have to back to Africa. No White should have to live next to a Black, no Black should have to live next to a Brown, no Brown should have to live next to a Yellow, and no Yellow should have to live next to a White. It is nothing but racial bigotry and what you propose is nothing but religious bigotry. By the way I link my Black, Brown, Yellow, and White friends. I judge people by there actions, not what color they are.

I don’t understand what “makes no sense”. Who would ever think that “secular laws would bring us under good light under God”? Secular does not address the issue of god. “If people followed their own religion, then there would be no needs of separation between "church and state”.” What a statement. Like everyone agrees on what the religious laws are? You probably couldn’t get every one on the same block to agree, ever if they belong to the same religion. What was so grate about the “Middle Ages”? Just like all other times in history, there were wars ever where. People will always fight. They always have and always will. Separation will not change that. “A Jewish United States”? You can go ahead and move. I like where I live. But I think it would be good if you moved to the ME.
I like my Jewish, Christian, Hindu, Muslim, Atheist, and Agnostic friends. I wish I had a Buddhist friend. For me, religion is not a prerequisite for friendship. I judge people by there actions, not what name they call god by. If you only have Muslim friends, I feel sorry for you. You must live in a tiny little box. I can’t imagine living in the drab world you want. Give me diversity. I want to know people that are different than me. I want to exchange thought and ideas with people that come from different backgrounds than me. That is how we learn and grow.

Instead of wanting to rearrange the whole world, why not practice a little tolerance.

 

[Woodrow]

Just because they're no religious institution in govt. doesnt mean that religion is important. Our pledge of allegiance, for instance, illustrates this. Inherently, religion is essential. A presidential candidate with atheistic beliefs will never become president.

Off hand I can not remember who, but several Historians have expressed a Belief that Lincoln was an Atheist.

Actually that may have happened twice already.

Presidents without church affiliation
Abraham Lincoln
Andrew Johnson

source: http://www.heptune.com/preslist.html#religions

 

[QuranStudy]

Off hand I can not remember who, but several Historians have expressed a Belief that Lincoln was an Atheist.

Actually that may have happened twice already.

Presidents without church affiliation
Abraham Lincoln
Andrew Johnson

But they didnt express their atheistc view like Moa or Stalin.That is why it's no more than speculation.

 

[Woodrow]

But they didnt express their atheistc view like Moa or Stalin.That is why it's no more than speculation.

That is true. However, think back in the 1860's in America not stating a religous affiliation would have been considered atheism by many if not most Americans. It was a very powerfull and unheard of thing to do in those times. Would be very similar to having the King Of Saudi saying he has no religous affiliation.

 

[`Abd al-Azeez]

Well alot of our laws (ours as in America) are based on the Bible, kind of.

 

[QuranStudy]

One of the negative affects of religion is that some theists feel that they should not have to coexist with people of different faiths. It is just another form of serration. No different than saying all Blacks have to back to Africa. No White should have to live next to a Black, no Black should have to live next to a Brown, no Brown should have to live next to a Yellow, and no Yellow should have to live next to a White. It is nothing but racial bigotry and what you propose is nothing but religious bigotry. By the way I link my Black, Brown, Yellow, and White friends. I judge people by there actions, not what color they are.

When did I suggest segregation by race??

I don’t understand what “makes no sense”. Who would ever think that “secular laws would bring us under good light under God”? Secular does not address the issue of god.

That the point! There also anti-Islamic laws in secular countries. For instance, you cannot wear hijaab in France.

What a statement. Like everyone agrees on what the religious laws are? You probably couldn’t get every one on the same block to agree, ever if they belong to the same religion.

Of course you can. All laws based on holy scriptures and nothing more. Don't compare Iran to an ideal Muslim state. The President is pscho.

What was so grate about the “Middle Ages”? Just like all other times in history, there were wars ever where. People will always fight. They always have and always will. Separation will not change that. “A Jewish United States”? You can go ahead and move. I like where I live. But I think it would be good if you moved to the ME.

A more ordered society. Did you ever hear about the Bubonic Plague?? The Jews were punished for it. That is what you get when cultures clash. Darwin's "survival of the fittest" applied to society.

But I think it would be good if you moved to the ME.

No it will not be good. Western culture has already smeared it's stain in the ME. And the leaders there seemed to be smoking pot.

I judge people by there actions, not what name they call god by. If you only have Muslim friends, I feel sorry for you. You must live in a tiny little box. I can’t imagine living in the drab world you want.

A community should be limited to people of the same religion. Only then can real peace be achieved. People are born innocent but grow sinful.

I want to know people that are different than me. I want to exchange thought and ideas with people that come from different backgrounds than me. That is how we learn and grow.

I dont. Western culture is nothing more than greed, sex, alcohol, racism, and defiance to God. It's the past and present.

Give me diversity. I want to know people that are different than me. I want to exchange thought and ideas with people that come from different backgrounds than me. That is how we learn and grow.

For heaven's sake, just look at China and Japan! It's their lack of diversity that makes them so stable and coherent. Diversity equates hostility.

Instead of wanting to rearrange the whole world, why not practice a little tolerance.

Intolerance is human nature.

That is true. However, think back in the 1860's in America not stating a religous affiliation would have been considered atheism by many if not most Americans. It was a very powerfull and unheard of thing to do in those times. Would be very similar to having the King Of Saudi saying he has no religous affiliation.

A person with no religious affiliation is not necessarilly an atheists. There are also freelance theists in theis world. Only the religiously adept should rule. That is why Saudi Arabia is such a mess. The King is a fool who's doing disservice to humanity and Islam with his selfishness.

 

[therebbe]

more Jews in New York than the entire of Israel.

Wrong.

There are 1.5 Million Jews in New York and around 5.5 Million Jews in Israel. All The Jews want is Israel and most Jews are willig to die over the land. We could care less about having the whole United States lol. The reason most Jews are in USA are because our family in Holocaust camps were sent to the USA by US army.

 

[QuranStudy]

There are 1.5 Million Jews in New York and around 5.5 Million Jews in Israel.

Fine. But we can agree that there are more Jews in United States (approx. 5.7 million) than in Israel (5.2 million).

 

[therebbe]

Fine. But we can agree that there are more Jews in United States (approx. 5.7 million) than in Israel (5.2 million).

Correct. But Israel's Jewish population is exploding at a much higher birth rate than the USA's because more secular Jews live in the US while the religious Jews like myself make up a lot more in Israel and average around 8 kids amking the population explode.

The largest religious Jewish community of the US is in New York though.