Intercession by Wali ullah

[Musalmaan]

^^ i'm sorta not have so much free time, someone else might entertain you.

 

[boriqee]

Islam = اقراربالسان وتصديق بالقلب
I do not know your definition of "Islam".If you are considering Munafiqeen's apparent "islam" as the real Islam ,then you are highly mistaken.When a muslim talks about Islam ,he is talking about that Islam about which the Holy Quran has said :

your not getting it akhee, let me make it simpler

my definition of islam is the same as the prophets. When he was asked what is islam he sauid
1. to make shahadah
2. make salah
3. saum
4. zakah
5. make hajj

That is Islam. But how does islam "purify' someones heart. had islam been the sole source of purification of he heart, there would not have been no such thing as munafiqeen. You see, if islam purifies the heart as you say, then when the munafiqeen "accepted islam" then by default right then and there on the mere acceptence of islam it should have purified their hearts.YET it didn't. But we, as well all know, do not logically conclude reality with this reasoning.

rather what is necessary with the actions of islam is "ikhlaas fi deen"

so when it is stated 'la ilaha ilallah muhammada rasulullah" No one can ever say that that is not islam. rather it is islam. But how will that statement gurantee the purification of the heart of someone who says it. NO rather what will advance this purification is not the mere statement but to
1. have muhaba (love) for it
2. yaqeen (certainty) that it is a reality
3. ilm (knowing) of its reality
and the rest of the conditions of la ilaha ilallah.

You see islam is not connected with the niya of the person who proclaims it. Islam is concerned with the outer actions of people. when the khaliph enforces islam as law, that does not entail that he forces you to have muhaba of the shahada or that you have certain knowledge of la ilaha ilallah, he is merely forced by default to ensure that you remain under the shadow of the mighteist statement i.e. the sahahada.

so all those ayaah about islam has nothing to do with the topic of 'purifying the heart" of the one who accepts islam, all of thoe ayaah are related to the victorious status and virtuosness of islam, and not that it itself purifies anyones heart.

lets take a common example throughout he world today. Today we have many many sinful muslims on this earth, they rob, they steal, they even deem it permissible to act out of terrorism, they fornicate, and worst of all many wish to follow and be like their greatest enemy, america. Had "islam" been the sole factor in the purification of the heart, this reality would not have been in existance. That would mean that if what you udnerstand was the reality, then all those muslims would not be sinful at all on the mere premise of their being "muslim" or having "Islam"

that is why it is said that all muhsineen (those with ihsaan) are mumineen (beleivers) but not all mumineen are muhsineen and ALL mumineen are all muslimeen BUT NOT ALL muslims are mumineen


secondly you completely went in the foul ball area with this statement

Both of you assumed that Munafqeen's faith is "real Islam"

I cant speak for musalman, but i can only assume, but as for me as a certainty and as for him based upon husn adhaan, we do not view the islam of the munafiqeen as 'real islam" Thats is not what I said verbatim nor was the implication behind my statements indicating that.

rather i said that if islam purifed hearts, there would not have been no such thing as munafiqeen and not that the islam of them is real Islam.

The implicated meaning of my statement is that when those kuffar who accepted islam and became munafiqeen, then why were they munaifqee if islam itself purifies the heart. By the virtue of their accepting islam, their conversion should have by default purified their hearts so that they would not have been munafiqeen. This is the reality of the implication of your statement that islam purifies the heart. All I said was that if this was true, there would not have been no such thing as munafiqeen, and not that the islam of the munafiqeen is real islam

I hope you consider and reflect the reality that is being relayed to you here akhee.

asalamu alaikum warahmtullah

 

[boriqee]

Why do you call their faith as "Islam"?
Both of you talking about "Islam itself does not purify anything"

We call their faith islam because it is the prophet who gave thm their islamic rights. even the mnere reality of his receiving revelation from allah about he munaiqeen and who they are still did not overide the fact that the prophet remained in obedience to the islamic dictates. The islamic dictates baased on this issue is that he narrated

"Whatever is establishd by certainty can only be removed by certainty"

so they were treated as muslims and had the same shariah rights as muslims, and that would not have been negated until a certainty was established i.e. their apostating. But since they did not explicitly apostate, they just hid their kufr, and the islamic shariah, ISLAM itself dos not necessitate that you act off of uncertainty, it only necessitate that you act on certainty.

so while we know that they had no islam and they were fake, they were still treated with the same islamic rights that every other muslim enjoys and is forced to adhere to.


so again, if islam does purify in and of itself on the mere islmic level, then explain whow there were such thing as munafiqeen. had islam purifed thehearts, there would not have been such thing called munaifqeen because by default everyone who coms to islam by defualt has their hearts purified.

again if what you say is true then why is the majority of muslims sinful. If what you say is true, then by the mere notion that they are muslims is by default assuming that their hwearts are purifed by default of their being muslim. but no person on earth, both muslims and non muslims views that by entering islam, then by default your heart is purified

asalamu alaikum

 

[asadxyz]

We call their faith islam because it is the prophet who gave thm their islamic rights. even the mnere reality of his receiving revelation from allah about he munaiqeen and who they are still did not overide the fact that the prophet remained in obedience to the islamic dictates. The islamic dictates baased on this issue is that he narrated

"Whatever is establishd by certainty can only be removed by certainty"

so they were treated as muslims and had the same shariah rights as muslims, and that would not have been negated until a certainty was established i.e. their apostating. But since they did not explicitly apostate, they just hid their kufr, and the islamic shariah, ISLAM itself dos not necessitate that you act off of uncertainty, it only necessitate that you act on certainty.

so while we know that they had no islam and they were fake, they were still treated with the same islamic rights that every other muslim enjoys and is forced to adhere to.


so again, if islam does purify in and of itself on the mere islmic level, then explain whow there were such thing as munafiqeen. had islam purifed thehearts, there would not have been such thing called munaifqeen because by default everyone who coms to islam by defualt has their hearts purified.

again if what you say is true then why is the majority of muslims sinful. If what you say is true, then by the mere notion that they are muslims is by default assuming that their hwearts are purifed by default of their being muslim. but no person on earth, both muslims and non muslims views that by entering islam, then by default your heart is purified

asalamu alaikum

Thanks for reply but what will you say about this aya if Munafiqeen are going were to be treated equally ?

وَلاَ تُصَلِّ عَلَى أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُم مَّاتَ أَبَدًا وَلاَ تَقُمْ عَلَىَ قَبْرِهِ إِنَّهُمْ كَفَرُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَمَاتُواْ وَهُمْ فَاسِقُونَ﴿9:84﴾
(9:84) And in future you should never say funeral prayer for anyone from among them; who dies nor stand at his grave, for they have denied Allah and His Messenger and died the while they were transgressors.

Mabrook

 

[boriqee]

first of all that is because the messenger received revelation about them being munafiqeen. The companions did not knowwho they were except one whom the prophet entrusted the names of the munafiqeen went.

So it was a command from Allah to the prophet. Now how does that ayaah apply to us who do not know who the munafiqeen are. Im pretty sure in the 14 centuries after the prophet, there have been thousands of munafiqeen that they themselves have received janazah.

POINT BEING

while we kow te islam is so comprehensive and entails aqeedah of emaan and ihsaan, The actuality of islam is on one side, the actuality of emaan is on another side, and he actuality of ihsaan is on another side which is why i said to you before that ti is said that every muhsin is a mumin butnot every mumin is a muhsin and every mumin is a muslim BUT NOT every muslim is a mumin (meaning not all muslims are beleivers) Yet they are treated with the rights of islam beause no one has the authority to pronounce nifaaq upon another person except in superbly minor and detailed matters whee a group of scholars asses and review the reality and nature of the individual, example being, Abdullah Bin Saba, the starter of the shia religion.

So you are left with two scenarios left in your understading if you still adopt this understanding of yours

1. you are by default of your view signifying that the mere accepting of islam of a convert, or the mere "being muslim" of the one who is muslims is by default purified in the heart OR
2. if they are not upon real islam then they aren to muslim, thus you'll be making takfeer of te muslims who are upon that.

please understand islam is necessary before reaching further into the realms of emaan and ihsaan, and without it, emaan and ihsan cannot be attained, but islam is what is obligated upon the slaves of the creation of man, and to have faith therin, but not ihsaan i.e. purifying your heart to a point that you see Him (not as a reality) but you know He sees you. But not all who profess islam actually have faith, which is why there is such thing as munafiqeen.


And that is why when an ISLAMic state is erupted, all it enforces is the laws of Islam i.e. shariah as is extracted form the scholars of fiqh and usoolu-fiqh i.e. the ahkaam of Allah

The khalifa is not ordered by Allah to enforce "sincerity" upon your shahadah or that you purify your heart, that is your job to take up the task, not his. Had Islam purified the hearts automatically, there would not have been no job in trying to rectify yourself, you would already by default be rectified just by pronouncing shahada and doing the other four ACTS of Islam.

asalamu alaikum