Is homosexuality chosen?

[aamirsaab]

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503543524
Even this group of muftis don't have a definitive answer, if anything the outcome is that it's ok.
But when the messenger says "None of you should drink..." it sounds pretty definitive. Then he's seen doing it, and some of his companions. Sends a bit of a mixed message wouldn't you say?

Muhammad [saw] trumps all muftis. If a mufti says something different to the Prophet or Allah, then he is incorrect. That's the way it is.

Edit: We can continue this on another thread.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Can we please stick to the topic. It's all very well throwing in a handful of (off-topic) assertions, but if you really intend to discuss, they should be dealt with individually and in their proper place.

Please, start a different thread or continue in a relevant one next time.


Barney,

Ignoring this as an excuse not to have to go around stoning the heck out of them is a cop-out.

Regarding this comment, I think it was based on a misunderstanding. People are punished for their public actions, not their hidden feelings. It seemed you were saying that homosexuals should be punished on assumption of their actions, rather than having been proven guilty.

 

[Azy]

Did you know that al-tabari has weak narrations in his collection? Did you know that at-tabari's tareekh even has fabricated ahadith in? It is upto later scholars to verify the chains of narration to check their authenticity.

Tell me how you would verify the story of Noah. If it is considered weak or fabricated, why is it still included as history so that people can have this twisted view of other races.

The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said:

" Those slaves are your brothers, only God gave you an upper hand over them. So let that who has his brother (i.e. slave) under him give him the same food he himself eats, and the same clothing as he himself wears. The master may not give his brother a task that is beyond his ability. If he does give him such task, let him lend him a hand."
Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29
​

[23.5] And who guard their private parts,
[23.6] Except before their mates or those whom their right hands possess, for they surely are not blameable

Have sex with your slaves, it's ok.

Do you even have proof for this statement?

Go have an intelligent conversation with a 6 year old.

Yeah for thousands of years men were having their way with young girls regardless of what they thought on the matter, so it's ok!
It may be news to you, but we've realised that people aren't mature enough to make responsible decisions when they're 6.
Do you never wonder why only a handful of middle eastern countries don't have an age limit, but the rest of the world considers it illegal to marry under the age of 14/15/16?

 

[- Qatada -]

Tell me how you would verify the story of Noah. If it is considered weak or fabricated, why is it still included as history so that people can have this twisted view of other races.

I simply say that i don't know presently, since i havn't studied the chain of narration, and i'm not even qualified in that science. Infact, you havn't even sourced what you stated - you just said its in At-Tabari.

[23.5] And who guard their private parts,
[23.6] Except before their mates or those whom their right hands possess, for they surely are not blameable

Have sex with your slaves, it's ok.

Allah has permitted that, like He's permitted marriage. So long as you treat them right and justly, so what?

Go have an intelligent conversation with a 6 year old.

I don't think you understand historical, social context.

Yeah for thousands of years men were having their way with young girls regardless of what they thought on the matter, so it's ok!
It may be news to you, but we've realised that people aren't mature enough to make responsible decisions when they're 6.

Yes, that's why when the girl reaches adulthood - she can annul the marriage if she chooses to do so. And before this, she doesn't have sex. So what's the problem?

Do you never wonder why only a handful of middle eastern countries don't have an age limit, but the rest of the world considers it illegal to marry under the age of 14/15/16?

You tell me, what is it? 14, 15 or 16 or 18? Did you know that someone is a peadophile in one European country compared to another in which he's not? Who's correct?

 

[truemuslim]

Yeah for thousands of years men were having their way with young girls regardless of what they thought on the matter, so it's ok!
It may be news to you, but we've realised that people aren't mature enough to make responsible decisions when they're 6.
Do you never wonder why only a handful of middle eastern countries don't have an age limit, but the rest of the world considers it illegal to marry under the age of 14/15/16?

and who exactly does that .... NOWADAYS?

 

[Azy]

I simply say that i don't know presently, since i havn't studied the chain of narration, and i'm not even qualified in that science. Infact, you havn't even sourced what you stated - you just said its in At-Tabari.

History of Al-Tabari Volume 2 - Prophets and Patriarchs, page 11.

Allah has permitted that, like He's permitted marriage. So long as you treat them right and justly, so what?

Erm, they're slaves, and you can have sex with them whether they like it or not... If you don't see what's wrong with that, then there's no point us talking.

I don't think you understand historical, social context.

I don't think you understand kids.

Yes, that's why when the girl reaches adulthood - she can annul the marriage if she chooses to do so. And before this, she doesn't have sex. So what's the problem?

...
So it's alright to go ahead with it because later when she reaches a point of sufficient mental faculty to understand her situation, she can say that she didn't want to do it.
Again, if you don't see what's wrong with that...

You tell me, what is it? 14, 15 or 16 or 18? Did you know that someone is a peadophile in one European country compared to another in which he's not? Who's correct?

It depends on the whether country in question uses a rough average age for maturity 14/15/16, or an higher age 17/18+ to be safe and include the maximum number of people.
I suppose that is based on how liberal the country is and whether they see greater benefit in allowing people who mature at the average age more freedom, or whether they prefer to focus on preventing abuse and using a higher age.
I doubt anyone in these countries would argue that a child under 10 is mature.
There are of course people who through diminished mental capacity are never mature, and the law in a lot countries prevents these people from entering into binding contracts (such as marriage).

 

[Azy]

and who exactly does that .... NOWADAYS?

errr, see the thread on Yemeni marriages somewhere.
A lot of middle eastern countries have no lower limit on marriagable age.

 

[truemuslim]

errr, see the thread on Yemeni marriages somewhere.
A lot of middle eastern countries have no lower limit on marriagable age.

yeh i had that thread. and i actually didn't say nothing about age. they get married at like 15/16 +
unless u talkin bout a generation ago?
and is lower age in marriage better than guys marrying guys? or teen pregnacy???

 

[Azy]

yeh i had that thread. and i actually didn't say nothing about age. they get married at like 15/16 +
unless u talkin bout a generation ago?
and is lower age in marriage better than guys marrying guys? or teen pregnacy???

Sorry there was no link in there
See here.

 

[truemuslim]

Sorry there was no link in there
See here.

yeh i think thats stupid and cruel, but still, not ALL arabs in ALL arab countries do this.

and what is better, lower age in marriage (not 8, or 9...or 10,11,12,13,14..more like...15+) or teen pregnacy and gay marriages?

 

[- Qatada -]

History of Al-Tabari Volume 2 - Prophets and Patriarchs, page 11.

I don't know the narrations authenticity since i'm not an expert on classification of hadith. However, i'll quote you what At-Tabari says at the beginning of his book:

If a certain man gets horrified by a certain incident that we reported in our book, then let him know that it did not come from us, but we only wrote down what we received from the narrators

[Tarikh Al-Tabari, 1/8].

​

These narrators could be authentic, weak or even fabricators. He just compiled the narrations with chain of narrators for future scholars to classify the narration.


I just want to quote a narration which will also clarify some things in regard to the Islamic stance on racism;

The Prophet said: 'There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab, nor for a fair-skinned person over a person with dark skin, nor for a dark-skinned person over a person with fair skin. Whoever is more pious and God-fearing is more deserving of honour.'(Musnad Ahmad)

http://www.islamicboard.com/userpage.php?userid=49

​

Erm, they're slaves, and you can have sex with them whether they like it or not... If you don't see what's wrong with that, then there's no point us talking.

Sahih Al Bukhari Volume 3, Book 46, Number 720:

Narrated Abu Musa:

Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said, “He who has a slave-girl and educates and treats her nicely and then manumits (free's her) and marries her, will get a double reward.”



​

I don't think you understand kids.
...

So it's alright to go ahead with it because later when she reaches a point of sufficient mental faculty to understand her situation, she can say that she didn't want to do it.

Didn't want to do what exactly?

It depends on the whether country in question uses a rough average age for maturity 14/15/16, or an higher age 17/18+ to be safe and include the maximum number of people.
I suppose that is based on how liberal the country is and whether they see greater benefit in allowing people who mature at the average age more freedom, or whether they prefer to focus on preventing abuse and using a higher age.
I doubt anyone in these countries would argue that a child under 10 is mature.
There are of course people who through diminished mental capacity are never mature, and the law in a lot countries prevents these people from entering into binding contracts (such as marriage).

Those who live in cold regions attain puberty at a much later age as compared with those living in hot regions where both male and female attain it at a quite early age. "The average temperature of the country or province," say the well-known authors of the bookWoman, "is considered the chief factor here, not only with regard to menstruation but as regards the whole of sexual development at puberty."5

Herman H. Ploss, Max Bartels and Paul Bartels, Woman, Volume I, Lord & Bransby, 1988, page 563.
​

This explains to us that people mature at an earlier age in hotter climates, such as Arabia, Africa etc. If this is the case - they are permitted to get married at an earlier age too. However, if there is harm in that - i.e. they aren't physically, mentally or emotionally prepared to get married - then they shouldn't get married.

I'll quote the following fatwa from Shaykh 'Abdul-'Azîz ibn Ahmad Ad-Durayhim:

As for the possible negative consequences of a man of such a mature age marrying such a young girl, it is patently obvious. The discrepancies in their capabilities, both physically and mentally, could bring about serious differences between the two of them that could lead to the failure of the marriage. This is something that has been seen and is well understood.

Therefore, I would not recommend such a marriage nor would I encourage it.

Moreover, with respect to what we have said about the legal validity of such a marriage, that refers to the validity of the contract itself. As for the effects of the marriage - such as privacy, intimacy and sexual relations - that is another matter entirely. Such things are permitted only if the girl is able to handle such a relationship without any harm whatsoever coming to. Otherwise, it is prohibited. This is because the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "There shall be no harm nor the causing of harm."

It can also be seen in the very conduct of the Prophet (peace be upon him). He did not consummate his marriage with 'A’ishah for a number of years on account of her young age.
​

And from the fatwâ committee supervised by Shaykh 'Abdul-Wahhâb At-Turayrî we note:

The lawfulness of consummating a marriage at such an age is contingent on the maturity of the girl and that no harm would come to her.
​

So if any harm would come from it, then it is unlawful i.e. harâm.


Q: So why didn't Islam prohibit such practices that are harmful?

Actually, it did. It would be impossible for Islam to have an explicit prohibition on every dangerous behavior from jumping off a scyscraper to smoking, so Islam has provided a single broad injunction to cover all instances of harm:

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said,

لا ضرر ولا ضر​

"There is to be no harming, nor reciprocating of harm." (Musnad Ahmad, authenticated by Al-Albânî)​

We see through the whole life of Aisha that she was in perfect harmony throughout the marriage and did not have any negative consequences through it, she excelled in religious affairs (she was from among the top 5 narrators of Prophetic traditions), aswell as advancing in the worldly affairs in which she focused on Medicine.


Since the whole discussion is on Aisha's marriage to the Messenger of Allah, we see that she never faced any harm whatsoever - rather she just benefitted herself and millions of others throughout history. Everyone else will be judged based on their circumstances independently.




Peace.

 

[Azy]

yeh i think thats stupid and cruel, but still, not ALL arabs in ALL arab countries do this.

Are you saying that the Prophet pbuh is stupid and cruel?
Obviously there are many people who see this practice for what it is, but because it is not forbidden by the quran and the prophet himself practiced it, it is open to abuse.

and what is better, lower age in marriage (not 8, or 9...or 10,11,12,13,14..more like...15+) or teen pregnacy and gay marriages?

Do you have to choose between the two?
And yeah back on the point, gay marriage is obviously better.

Two people, who we have pretty much agreed are born the way they are, in a loving relationship, doing things that they both consent to in the privacy of their homes.
or...
Two people, one of whom is forced into marrying someone when he/she is not mentally mature enough to decide for theirself.

- Qatada -, I'll have to address most of that post later, I'm leaving work shortly. I will say one thing though from my earlier post:

Q: So why didn't Islam prohibit such practices that are harmful?

Actually, it did. It would be impossible for Islam to have an explicit prohibition on every dangerous behavior from jumping off a scyscraper to smoking, so Islam has provided a single broad injunction to cover all instances of harm:

The Prophet pbuh saw fit to mention the dangers of drinking water while standing up, but left sexually violating a child to your own judgement.

 

[truemuslim]

Are you saying that the Prophet pbuh is stupid and cruel?
Obviously there are many people who see this practice for what it is, but because it is not forbidden by the quran and the prophet himself practiced it, it is open to abuse.
Do you have to choose between the two?
And yeah back on the point, gay marriage is obviously better.

Two people, who we have pretty much agreed are born the way they are, in a loving relationship, doing things that they both consent to in the privacy of their homes.
or...
Two people, one of whom is forced into marrying someone when he/she is not mentally mature enough to decide for theirself.

- Qatada -, I'll have to address most of that post later, I'm leaving work shortly. I will say one thing though from my earlier post:

The Prophet pbuh saw fit to mention the dangers of drinking water while standing up, but left sexually violating a child to your own judgement.

OMG UR IMPOSSIBLE!!!

Are you saying that the Prophet pbuh is stupid and cruel?

OOOK thats like when? in the three digit years? yeh... We are in the 21st centery...NO ONE does that! they do that back in da day not now. so its normal back then NOT now.
ok then why dont people argue about gay marriages? but argue about young marriages? and dont argue about teen preganacy but argue bout young marriages?

 

[Azy]

OOOK thats like when? in the three digit years? yeh... We are in the 21st centery...NO ONE does that! they do that back in da day not now. so its normal back then NOT now.
ok then why dont people argue about gay marriages? but argue about young marriages? and dont argue about teen preganacy but argue bout young marriages?

So what you're saying is that social conventions change over time and what might be unacceptable in one time is acceptable in another, even though it isn't spelled out in the scriptures?

 

[truemuslim]

So what you're saying is that social conventions change over time and what might be unacceptable in one time is acceptable in another, even though it isn't spelled out in the scriptures?

The prophet said we should ride camels for transportation...times change..camels are old school...cars develop...cars aint haram...cars are modern camels...
That is old school marriage... rasulallah didnt really even say to marry that young... years passed...decades passed...generation passed...that marriage is now normal marriage at normal ages...

 

[- Qatada -]

The Prophet pbuh saw fit to mention the dangers of drinking water while standing up, but left sexually violating a child to your own judgement.

The narration mentions that there is to be no harm caused right? Therefore, we extract from the narration that if someone is not mature enough for marriage - then they shouldn't go through it if it will cause them harm. That's sufficient as an answer. Yet if someone is mature for it, as Aisha was - like i explained above - then that is allowed.


I don't see any confusion or error in that.



If you don't want to go any further in debate, then you don't have to. If you want to continue, that's your choice.




Peace.

 

[Azy]

truemuslim - You do see where this is going, don't you?

 

[truemuslim]

truemuslim - You do see where this is going, don't you?

yep.. in circles

 

[Azy]

I'll take that as a no

 

[Woodrow]

This thread seems to have developed into a fiqh discussion and has no resemblance to the original topic.


:threadclo: