Jesus & Jihaad

[Andaraawus]

ISSUE ONE: JESUS عليهالسلام AND JIHAAD

The Biblical Test:

"And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." - Tanakh, Deuteronomy 18:21-22.

We often here the claim that Islaam was spread by the sword, so i would like to take this oppurtunity to put the following saying of Jesus عليهالسلام under the spotlight of investigation:

"...they that take the sword shall perish with the sword." -Jesus, New Testament, Matthew, 26:52.

It is well known that Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم used the sword in battle, however did he perish by the sword??? The saying of Jesus is either a factual error in the Bible or can be explained by admitting that Jesus عليهالسلام prepared a few of his diciples for an armed Jihaad.

Feel free to explain away...

 

[Keltoi]

This statement by Jesus was in the context of his followers attempting to defend him. Jesus would not allow them to use violence in his defense saying "They that take the sword shall perish by the sword", or the paraphrase.."Live by the sword and die by the sword." Has every person who used violence perished by violence? Of course not. The point is more a statement of moral clarity. By defending Jesus against violence by the use of violence, his followers would have become exactly what they were attempting to defend him from.

 

[Andaraawus]

Correct answer!

Thank you for your reply, did you know that Jesus commanded his disciples to get some swords and why?

 

[Joe98]

.....his followers attempting to defend him. Jesus would not allow them to use violence in his defense saying "They that take the sword shall perish by the sword",

The Christian belief is that Mathew was a witness to this event and wrote it in his gospel.

As I understand it, the Muslim belief is that this event never happened. Instead, correct me if I am wrong, Muslims believe Jesus wrote these words in his own gospbel, which became corrupted and then became the bible.

Which is the most believable?

 

[Andaraawus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avicenna
I dont get what's so special about this man. How did he even get divine status? Would you believe me if a magician claimed he was God? Jesus walked on water, so what?? Criss Angel can do the same too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rsA8GY-9ds

Does God have a grandson now?

This thread isn't for attacking religious figures. You will find that when you ask a "question" in the context of actually learning or discussing a subject you will get a better response.

i guess that post was deleted. in answer to the brother about the Bible. I personally believe that Matthew did not write Matthew and Matthew chapter 9 verse 9 will give hint of why. The injeel which was bestowed upon Jesus is not the New Testament, however that does not mean that there are not teachings of the Injeel (Gospel) contained therein. The Injeel which Jesus had was given to him since birth. I can not argue if that scripture was put into writing or not. About the incident at Gethsemane, its hard to tell from Islamic tradtion whether that happened, there are different scholarly opnions in regards to Jesus esacping death. The incident at Gethsamane plays an important role in the sequence of the alleged crucifixtion. Bottom line Muslims believe that "they did not kill him nor did they crucify him but it was made to appear to them so." We dont have to speculate on matters such as who was crucified in place of Jesus.

 

[Joe98]

I personally believe that Matthew did not write Matthew and Matthew chapter 9 verse 9 will give hint of why.

No it doesn't

 

[Andaraawus]

here we go, a pantomine debate!

yes it does

 

[Andaraawus]

BEeEeEeEHhHhOIiIiIiNnnNnNDdDdDd yOoOuUu!!1

 

[Umar001]

The Christian belief is that Mathew was a witness to this event and wrote it in his gospel.

As I understand it, the Muslim belief is that this event never happened. Instead, correct me if I am wrong, Muslims believe Jesus wrote these words in his own gospbel, which became corrupted and then became the bible.

Which is the most believable?

I will ask you to ask who ever hold that 'Muslim' belief to show you why they hold that belief and if they provide you sources from Islam which show that then say it is a Muslim belief, it could be an individual belief, shared by Muslims, but that would not make it an article of Islam, if there is no evidence from Islamic sources.

Secondly, if a person believes in something, which might make more sense than another, do you think personally that it renders their belief right?

Anyhow, you say 'Muslims believe that Jesus wrote these words in his own gospel, which became corrupted....' If the Gospel became curropted then, how do you know those exact words are Jesus'??

 

[Joe98]

If the Gospel became curropted then, how do you know those exact words are Jesus'??

When Mathew or one of Mathew's followers wrote Mathews gospel, it was written by Mathew or one of Mathew's followers.

Why do Mulsims say it was written by Jesus???????

 

[Umar001]

When Mathew or one of Mathew's followers wrote Mathews gospel, it was written by Mathew or one of Mathew's followers.

Why do Mulsims say it was written by Jesus???????

Am confused as to what you mean, and I have yet to see one Muslim claim the Gospel of Matthew was written by Jesus. Maybe some Muslims say that, I'd like to see their proof for it.

Peace

 

[Andaraawus]

he didnt say it was written by Jesus my friend ....

read more closly , we never have claimed the injeel was even written.
Injeel has been said to be an oral scripture. Only spoken. What we have in the New Testament may contain parts of this oral tradition but a great number of it is in question, not to mention the many gospels that have been thrown out by the nician council...

 

[Umar001]

he didnt say it was written by Jesus my friend ....

read more closly , we never have claimed the injeel was even written.
Injeel has been said to be an oral scripture. Only spoken. What we have in the New Testament may contain parts of this oral tradition but a great number of it is in question, not to mention the many gospels that have been thrown out by the nician council...

So bro, you don't think the Injeel was ever written??

 

[Andaraawus]

i believe Jesus was born with the injeel and preached it orally. Remember Jesus only had twelve diciples.

Were they literate? what did they do for occupation? and when Jesus told them to preach the gospel (injeel) did they carry a book around with them? even i struggle to find answers to these questions. Moreover the gospels we have now were written long after Jesus and the diciples. They were most likely passed down through oral tradition.

 

[Umar001]

Assalamu Aleykum Wa Rhametulah

i believe Jesus was born with the injeel and preached it orally. Remember Jesus only had twelve diciples.

I don't know if their number was twelve according to Islam.

Were they literate?

I do not know.

what did they do for occupation?

I do not know.

when Jesus told them to preach the gospel (injeel) did they carry a book around with them?

I do not know.

Moreover the gospels we have now were written long after Jesus and the diciples. They were most likely passed down through oral tradition.

That does not indicate anything with regards to Jesus, peace and blessing be upon him's message being oral or not.

 

[Hijrah]

May Allah (SWT) Bless Isa the Mujahid

 

[Andaraawus]

I do not know.

I have to give you reputation for honesty and humbleness.

 

[Umar001]

I have to give you reputation for honesty and humbleness.

Alhamdulilah, I remember an instance with Imam Malik I think it is or someone, who said 'I dont know'

Anyhow, bro all I was getting at is that, I do not know, from an Islamic position, we can guess, we can estimate, but Islamicly I have never seen a hadeeth or as such statement on these matters.

Thats why I kept asking.

EDIT: P.s do I get one rep for each 'I dont know'

 

[glo]

Re: Jesus & peace

Correct answer!

Thank you for your reply, did you know that Jesus commanded his disciples to get some swords and why?

Hi there!

I have pondered this question all week, and finally decided to write my view in reply.

Jesus mentions the sword on two occasions in the gospel:

Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
"Nothing," they answered.

He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"That is enough," he replied. (Luke 22: 35-38)

This is taking place at the last supper, very shortly before Jesus' arrest and his death.
He is trying to prepare his disciples for what will come:
Previously, when he had send them out into the villages to preach, he had told them not to take anything with them, and to rely on offering from the people to live on.

What he is saying now is, that after his death things will be different. The disciples may meet with animosity and anger.
They will have to fend for themselves ('take a bag and a purse') and learn to defend themselves ('take a sword')

His desciples reply eagerly by saying that they have two swords ... and at this point it seems unclear how Jesus' reply 'That is enough' is meant: does he mean 'two swords are plenty' or 'enough of that!'??

Just a few hours later, at the time of his arrest, it becomes clearer:

When Jesus' followers saw what was going to happen, they said, "Lord, should we strike with our swords?" And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear.

But Jesus answered, "No more of this!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him.

Then Jesus said to the chief priests, the officers of the temple guard, and the elders, who had come for him, "Am I leading a rebellion, that you have come with swords and clubs? Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on me. But this is your hour—when darkness reigns." (Luke 22:49-53)

Now it is clear that Jesus did not mean that his disciples should take up the sword! He was speaking figuratively!

Here is the other time Jesus is reported to mention the sword, this time in Matthew's gospel:

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' (Matthew 10: 34-36

Again, Jesus is not advocating physical violence - he is talking about the divisions that will arise, when people put their faith in Him and the New Covenant. His followers will be persecuted, they will have to leave their communities, even their families.
People may be put in a situation where they will have to choose between their family and Jesus:

Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. (Matthew 10: 37-38)

Do you see that Jesus never advocates physical violence? Never, ever!

Ephisians 6 uses armory as a symbolic description for standing strong in one's faith. Read it and see, that it is not speaking of real swords, but the sword of the spirit.
Indeed it is saying that our human action is ineffective unless we walk and act in God's spirit!
It is speaking of spiritual battles against evil - not physcal battle against other human beings!

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints. (Ephesians 6: 10-18)

That's what you get when I ponder a question for a whole week: a very lengthy post!!! :rollseyes :giggling:
I hope any of this makes any sense.

Peace

 

[Umar001]

I have only thought about this briefly, here's my response, funny enough it is contrasting to Glo

Anyhow:

Why did Jesus, tell his disciples to purchase swords?

Well, we know swords, as Ahmed Deedat says are not for cutting apples.

We see that after the knowledge of two swords being with them, Jesus' placed his disciples near him to keep watch:
Mark:14:32-33

32They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, "Sit here while I pray." 33He took Peter, James and John along with him, and he began to be deeply distressed and troubled.

Jesus was 'distressed' the wieght of the situation began to dawn on him, it would be rational that he sought some defensive strategy. But what changed his mind from being ready to pick up swords to giving violence up??

Here my theories differ, I have only come up with two, one I will write and another for a while yet.

1. Reminded of Mission, fear taken away

It is against the background of the above mental state, it was then, that 'An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him.' And because of that he 'being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.'

How did this angel strenghten him? G-d would not have pressured Jesus more, it is unlikely that G-d would have just sent an angel to tell him 'shut up and stop asking for things to change' this wouldn't have strenghtend him, how would he be strenghtend?

If I or you, were to recieve a visit from an angel carrying G-d's word, of Glad Tidings, being reminded that we were not going to be alone, dying for nothing, that would make us more strong in the face of fear, we would be strenghtend, and fear would turn to joy, the defensive mindstate which posseses a man to purchase guns and swords would turn into the mindstate that, 'I will die, and I will die in a good cause'

From here, we can see or begin to understand Jesus' change of mind in a rational way.

I also believe the Gospel of Matthew, backs this theory, look:
Matthew 26:53-54

53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

Jesus after being strenghtend, does not feel 'left to die' by G-d, rather, he reminds his disciple, 'Do you think I cannot call on my Father..' He was reminded by the angel that he, Jesus, has a direct line, that G-d will be there, but that G-d's help would not be needed now, why? Because 'how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?' Jesus had been so "deeply distressed and troubled" by the prospects of humiliation, torture, pain that he wanted out, by any means neccesary, hence the swords, but once reminded by G-d through the angel who strenghtend him, Jesus, regained sight of the greater picture, that is G-d's plan.

The other theory I cannot write now since I need some old testament scripture, but I actually think this theory is much more convincing.