Jesus Wars

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It says in the bible " do not cast pearls to swine "

Little harsh. But OK.

I don't know if we're reading the same thing but I don't think Yusuf is accusing us personally of anything. There's no need for us to sugar coat this...I feel like you're making this thread to be potentially hostile when it really isn't. There is no trap. If you chose to respond to Yusuf's post in a negative way then that's something you'll have to work on, brother.

i see it as obvious that most of Christianity MUST be based upon worshiping shaytan. THEY have elevated him to a position of god. ERGO, we do NOT worship the same god.

I think that's debatable but I can see your point. People follow pastors in churches, look for pastors to tell them what to believe, engage in strange pagan-like rituals in some sects, have "prophets", people who see into the future in the different sects etc... And I like that you said "most of" instead labeling the entire Christian faith. It would appear that in some places Capitalism is god. Lots of famous pastors in business suits running churches like a company. That's one thing that always bothered me...churches having logos, etc. It's not a company...

luckily, we are dealing with facts and not accusations! HOWEVER, in doing so, YOU accuse us of "questioning your REALITY" as opposed to your "DELUSION!" so, who is accusing who?

Good point. While I believe that is important love your neighbor as my religion teaches, it is one thing to say that and another to actually do that. When you see on television Westboro Baptist Church, and these famous evangelical pastors spreading lies and misinformation about Islam, coming out as gay, soldiers funerals being protested as protected under the First Amendment, Christians on university campuses telling students they're going to burn in hell for not believing in the message of Christianity, it's evident that lots of people don't practice what is preached in Christianity...and I agree with Yusuf that it is a delusion to think that most followers of Christianity today actually do. I know some very wonderful Christians but as a whole the central theme of our faith isn't quite upheld as much as it should be.

I work for an organization that helps children in Africa and when the Christian missionaries come with food, and supplies to help them live a better life, it's amazing to see the joy and hope on those children's faces. They have a very good image of what American Christians are like. When you go back home to the U.S., the Christian image is something more along the lines of someone who goes to church only on Sunday, fornicators, and hypocrites. Of course, we're not all that way but those who are the "leaders" in our faith aren't setting a very good example for all of us. As a Christian, I always find myself apologizing on behalf of my faith to people I've met in the LGBT community or of other faiths who have been hurt by the harsh words and actions of other Christians.


The idea of being a Christian loving your neighbor as yourself is a very nice and noble one indeed, but when it comes to the Christian masses actually living and breathing that message, well, that's where the issue comes into play.
 
That really is a total strawman. Nothing has been 'whitewashed' regarding the Reformation and it's consequences, the Crusades, so-called 'missionaries' stomping through America slaughtering everyone who wouldn't convert (and many who would), etc. etc, at least in my (English) education. And of course, the history of Islam (or at least things done by muslims) is hardly squeaky clean either. But how relevant is all this to 2011?

Well, your English education did wonders for you, then. I was educated in America where much of this information is swept under the rug in my state. You'll find it, if you seek it or if you're educated in a private school but most of us aren't so fortunate to have that opportunity. And the history of religions aren't really deemed as important on the academic calendar since the math and sciences aren't measuring up globally but that's beside the point. No one is saying that the history of Islam is squeaky clean. This is relevant to 2011 because in this day and age there is a barrage of Christians who stomp on and demonize Islam a thousand times over without even taking the time to look at the history of their own religion. As an educated man you should know then that those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.
 
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Argue not with the People of the Book except in the fairest manner, unless it be those of them that are utterly unjust. Say to them: “We believe in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to you. One is our God and your God; and we are those who submit ourselves to Him.”

Surah 29:46

As there are NOT two Gods, all I can assume this passage means is that Muslims and Christians refer to the same God, the ONE God of Abraham, Adam, Moses, and Jesus. So...as I Christian, am I a "person of the Book", brother YusufNoor? Do we have the same God who sent Jesus as Messenger and Prophet?

Hmmm...

the Qur'an is for those who seek guidance. here is another passage about Christianity:

4:171 O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs.

you have quoted Qur'an, do you believe this verse as well?

if you go back and revisit the original posts, you will see subject matter of Christians using force NOT to spread what was revealed to them but religion as they have changed and adapted it. that is, murder and killing over whether Jesus has 1 nature or 2 natures in the 1st post, and the 2nd deals with murder and killing over whether or not Rome speaks for God or that the Pope speaks for God.

i don't see those as being of the substance of the Message of Jesus, so how can they represent that message?

Let's just be honest: Christianity has been dreadfully INCONSISTENT with the actual message of Jesus and caused untold, horrible suffering upon millions of people over the years because of it. Point blank. Period. Mere humility and historical exploration can show that.

then why object to reviewing the subject? these "inconsistencies" are mired in the "evolution" [so to speak] of Christianity. MAYBE we can "devolve" the religion back from whence it came and get back to the message of Jesus.

But that's just it. Christianity, by and large, has been INCONSISTENT with the Message and the Messenger. But that's not the Messenger's fault or the Message. And the message of Jesus IS his re-affirmation of the "Great Commandments" in the Torah of Moses: Love of God and Love of Neighbor. Many in Muslim intelligensia KNOW this to be true

IF you could decipher EXACTLY what Jesus taught, would you follow it? or would you prefer the teachings of man?

3rddec

Re: Jesus Wars
wiyh respect I believe my point about the true nature of the question has been proven by previous responses and i will continue to resist the temptation to Join the accuser no matter how the trap is set. I will continue to spread the message of "Love God and Love your neighbour" and hope in time enough people will avoid being drawn into the clutches of the accuser and ultimately the war mongers. Im sure if I was to visit Christians sites the war mongers and accusers there could list of an encyclopedia of crimes committed in Islams name both past and present.

i don't think the numbers come close to being similar, and many other varieties of Christianity only survived because of the refuge they found in Muslim lands.

One day im sure all the war mongers will be able to get together and debate the issue, im guessing the place will be hot. I will not post anything further in this thread. It says in the bible " do not cast pearls to swine

so you prefer insult to dealing with the truth? ta ta!

"

how do you promote the message of "Love God and Love your neighbour" by rape and murder? a bit inconsistent.

Have Christians missed the point a lot? Heck, yeah. But again, that's INCONSISTENCY, not dysfunction of the Teaching itself.

if you allow man to change the teachings of your Prophet, you MAKE it dysfunctional, don't you?
 
YusufNoor:
you have quoted Qur'an, do you believe this verse as well?

Brother Yusef. When I quoted that passage, it was to state that, from the Quran's perspective, Christians and Muslims do have the same God: the One God who "revealed" things by his Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. I was responding to your idea that Christians and Muslims don't worship the same God. That's all.

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YusufNoor:
if you go back and revisit the original posts, you will see subject matter of Christians using force NOT to spread what was revealed to them but religion as they have changed and adapted it. that is, murder and killing over whether Jesus has 1 nature or 2 natures in the 1st post, and the 2nd deals with murder and killing over whether or not Rome speaks for God or that the Pope speaks for God.

i don't see those as being of the substance of the Message of Jesus, so how can they represent that message?

I don't believe that the issue is about the discussion of different points of Christian theology per se (like the dual nature of Christ, etc)...it's the implicit and explicit REJECTION of the Message of Jesus in their attempts to do so. I am very well aware of all of the political intrigue and frankly, unspiritual activity that suffused many of these discussions. But that's just it: those very actions denied the core of the Faith that was being so heavily fought for.
In short, it's not the doctrinal discussions that were the problem...it was the lack of LOVE demonstrated throughout.

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YO: Let's just be honest: Christianity has been dreadfully INCONSISTENT with the actual message of Jesus and caused untold, horrible suffering upon millions of people over the years because of it. Point blank. Period. Mere humility and historical exploration can show that.

YusufNoor: then why object to reviewing the subject? these "inconsistencies" are mired in the "evolution" [so to speak] of Christianity. MAYBE we can "devolve" the religion back from whence it came and get back to the message of Jesus.

Who's objecting to reviewing history of Christianity? Certainly not me. Especially when it's done as much as possible without undue bias. I don't think anything I've said criticizes the pursuit of good, bad, and ugly of Christian history. Same way with Islamic history.

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YusufNoor:
IF you could decipher EXACTLY what Jesus taught, would you follow it? or would you prefer the teachings of man?

Brother, I would really, really, REALLY like it if you engaged me on the "Isa: "Great Commandments" as Essential to True Muslim Faith" thread. There I talk about exactly what I believe Jesus taught...flat out. And I would LOVE to hear your thoughts on there. S'il vous plait?

And I try to live by those teachings every single day of my life. Real talk, homie. It's hard, but Allah willing and strengthening, I'll keep at it.
 
IF, as you say, "Love of God and love of our neighbour" IS the message of your faith, then how do you kill 6,000,000 people over some details that, by your definition, are less consequential?

You are an intelligent person. Figure it out. The message says do XYZ, people do something different. What can be concluded? Said people were NOT following the message.

It wasn't that many years ago that Northern Ireland was a bloodbath. Supposed Christians, some claiming to be protestant others claiming to be Catholic were at war with each other, all in the name of religion. But while they may have waved a particular flag, in my estimation it is false to assume that either group was really living under the lordship of Christ. If they had been, they would not have behaved as they did.







It is natural for people to judge a religion by the behaviors of it practioners. In this regard, Christians have failed Christ for on the whole we have been very poor at living by his commands. And as egregis as they might be you don't have to point to killings to make that point. Just walk into any American city where the majority of people claim to be Christian, and what do you see? A consumption based society in which the poor are being marginalized. That can't happen when people live out the teachings of Christ.

Jesus came to announce the inbreaking of the Kingdom of God and to invite us to join him in living according to that kingdom ethic. Well, hunger is an affront to the reality of God's kingdom. In God's kingdom people don't starve. And when we take on the name of Christ, one of the ways we mark this is by participation in signs of the faith such as the sharing of the Lord's Supper (the Eucharist). Now, some think that this is just a nice little ritual, but it is so much more. For those who truly have faith, faith does its business in the bread and wine of that meal and transforms us. It is a sign of our Lord claiming us, and claiming us as ambassadors of his kingdom. When we pray the prayer that Jesus taught us, we are praying for God's kingdom to come among us and that his will be done on earth as it is in heaven. In other words, we are praying a prayer that sends out to transform the world so that in the end it resembles heaven more.

In that same prayer, we pray for our daily bread. A more accurate translation of this word "daily" might be sufficient or enough. To pray for more would tempt us to try to live as if we wre other than those who live only by the will and the working of a gracious God. When the manna was given to the Hebrew people in the wilderness, they were permitted to gather only as much as they needed for each day. So, daily, we too must reach out to God who daily reaches out to us. To want for more than this day's bread is to be focused on the self and to express lack in belief of God's providence.

Now, if you are a Christian and still reading, at this point I hope you see how this simple prayer moves us to bow on our knees in confession. I say this because, let's face it, most of us -- at least those with access to the internet -- aren't likely to be in a position where we have to think much about daily bread. For most of us, THAT is not the problem. Perhaps a few of us have exactly the opposite problem, a little too much bread. For this is one the problems of humankind, we take God's good gifts and we prevert them, even bread. We become over-indulgent in it. We hoard it. We run the price of it up so as to increase our own profits, often at the expense of those who are most in need. We use it as a weapon. Most of us perish from too much bread rather than too little, filling the gnawing emtpiness within through ceaseless consumption. We are rich and, as one notes in Scripture, rich people are often in big trouble in terms of serving and pleasing God.

Since this thread began by looking at Church history, I want to go there too, back to Gregory of Nysaa. Gregory noted the wonder that in the Lord's Prayer, when one considers all that we need, the only thing we are permitted to ask for is something so basic as bread. Not herds or silken robes, not a prominent position, monuments or statues. Only bread.

Note here as well. When Christains pray this prayer, we are taught to pray, give us this day our daily bread. Bread is a communal product. Bread is a corporate responsibility. St. Basil the Great made explicit in a sermon that nothing that belongs to us is ours alone, particularly that which we have an excess of:
The bread that is spoiling in your house belongs to the hungry. The shoes that are mildewing under your bed belong to those who have none. The clothes stored away in your trunk belong to those who are naked. The moeny that depreciates in your treasury belongs to the poor!
Our bread is not ours to hoard. Our bread belongs to our sisters and our brothers. Bread is God's gift which, like so many other good gifts of God, we pervert by our selfishness.

Yusuf, it isn't just the cases from history (some might say a few extremists, others might see a regular pattern of condoned or even promoted behavior) that prove that Christians don't actually practice the love of which we so much like to speak. In truth, we all have quite a bit of room for improvement. It is a good word.

Whether you meant it that way or not, I don't know. But thank-you for the reminder. I have much work to do, if I am truly going to follow the one who I claim to serve. May we each do better to have our message reflect his message of and command to love which Christ himself shared with the world. If he is my Lord, I'm not just accountable when Yusuf points out failings throughout history to which I can say, that I didn't do any of those things. But his Spirit (which Yusuf was an instrument of today) also reminds me that there are things that Christ has called me to do in the practice of living a life of love which others might point at and say to me, "Well, you didn't do any of those things either." It's not enough to say "I believe", if I truly believe he is my Lord, I need live a life of service which exemplifies his message and actually be a instrument of God's message of love.
 
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Here is a question/statement that any is certainly free to answer, but is designed more to provoke thoughtfulness. As you study, to greater or lesser degree, the life and practice of Jesus as presented in the Gospels, which appear more as a pattern from His Holy life, the persecuted or the persecutor? Whether the blows fell from a papal or protestant hand, from secular state or religious, in whose face do you see a reflection of Christ?
 

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