Law Of Islam VERSUS Law Of The Land

[hisnameiszzz]

Salaams all.

I have a quick question for the Muslims. As a Muslim, what takes preference, Islam or the Law Of The Land you live in?

Example 1) In the UK, you are not allowed to have 2 or more wives at the same time. Islam says a man can have up to 4 wives at the same time. So if a Muslim man lives in the UK, should he abide by the Law Of The Land first and foremost or should he just discard it because Islam says he can have 4 wives? What would be more important to him Islamically?

 

[ardianto]

When I would marry my wife she told me to not have more than one wife, and I obeyed it. So I had no another wife in my married life.

But was my wife against Islam with forbade me to take another wife?. No!. The rule which Muslim men are allowed to have up to 4 wives is not a command, but just a permission. And there is no rule that forbid Muslim man to have only one wife. So, if my wife forbade me to have another wife, that's not against Islam because there's no rule in Islam that says Muslim men should have 4 wives.

So, it's not wrong if Muslim in UK obey the law that man allowed to have only one wife. Different than if there's rule which says that Muslim are not allowed to perform salah or fasting in Ramadhan.

 

[hisnameiszzz]

Thanks for your response Ardianto.

I didn't mean because Islam gives permission for a man to have up to 4 wives that he MUST follow this rule.

I meant that if someone lives in the UK, and they wanted to marry more than one woman, should he do it even if it's against the law of the land?

 

[ardianto]

Thanks for your response Ardianto.

I didn't mean because Islam gives permission for a man to have up to 4 wives that he MUST follow this rule.

I meant that if someone lives in the UK, and they wanted to marry more than one woman, should he do it even if it's against the law of the land?

I didn't say Muslims in UK must obey that law. I just said "It's not wrong to obey". In fact, there are Muslims in UK who disobey that law, and I can't say it's wrong.

But I really suggest Muslims in UK to not do provocative action like urging British govt to allow multiple wives marriage. They still must respect British law as long as not really against Islam.

 

[daveyats]

Thanks for your response Ardianto.

I didn't mean because Islam gives permission for a man to have up to 4 wives that he MUST follow this rule.

I meant that if someone lives in the UK, and they wanted to marry more than one woman, should he do it even if it's against the law of the land?

for gods sake, if you choose to be a citizen of a country or are a citizen by virtue of birth, you are subject to its laws. the same laws that regulate your behavior are the same laws that provide you protection and benefits. if you disagree with the law you are free to move elsewhere that allows you to do whatever you want like marry 4 or 99 wives.

if you're unhappy that there are laws that restrict the way you practice your religion you should move to an islamic state or something. if the country you live in, is multi-religious and allows freedom of religion for all, you need to recognize that some compromise needs to be made to be fair to everyone.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Hello daveyats,

I'm glad to see you're back.

I'm just wondering whether your opinion on leaving your country if you don't agree with some of the laws of your land extend to, say, Christian homeschoolers or Black civil rights campaigners?

Or is it just for Muslims?

Just curious.

 

[saif-uddin]

Salaams all.

I have a quick question for the Muslims. As a Muslim, what takes preference, Islam or the Law Of The Land you live in?

Example 1) In the UK, you are not allowed to have 2 or more wives at the same time. Islam says a man can have up to 4 wives at the same time. So if a Muslim man lives in the UK, should he abide by the Law Of The Land first and foremost or should he just discard it because Islam says he can have 4 wives? What would be more important to him Islamically?

:wasalam:

Rasulullah :saws: said: "There is no obedience to the creation in disobedience to the Creator."

[Ahmed and Haakim]

He :saws: also said ... "Obedience is in what is right."

[Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim]

Hence Obedience to Allah ta'ala and his Messenger :saws: always takes priority,

in other words, If the Law of the Lan opposes any command of Allah ta'ala and his messenger :saws:, then it is rejected.

:jz:

 

[daveyats]

Hello daveyats,

I'm glad to see you're back.

I'm just wondering whether your opinion on leaving your country if you don't agree with some of the laws of your land extend to, say, Christian homeschoolers or Black civil rights campaigners?

Or is it just for Muslims?

Just curious.

for everyone and I'm simply answering the question that was posted:

"I meant that if someone lives in the UK, and they wanted to marry more than one woman, should he do it even if it's against the law of the land?"

wanting to marry more than one woman is your personal choice, so if its against the law of your land you should move. this is not discriminatory. an example of a discriminatory law would be a law that will restrict marriage to everyone who is not a muslim.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

Umm, Daveyats, you didn't answer my question.

Let me rephrase it:

If the laws of my land say that sending my children to school is compulsory between the ages of, say, 6 and 16, and I happen to be a Christian who wants to homeschool my children for my own personal reasons (say, I want to make sure my children have a good moral upbringing), are you suggesting that my children and I should leave our country?

 

[daveyats]

Umm, Daveyats, you didn't answer my question.

Let me rephrase it:

If the laws of my land say that sending my children to school is compulsory between the ages of, say, 6 and 16, and I happen to be a Christian who wants to homeschool my children for my own personal reasons (say, I want to make sure my children have a good moral upbringing), are you suggesting that my children and I should leave our country?

Yes because not sending your kids to school is illegal! if the parent feels so strongly about homeschooling, they should move somewhere else where they can do so freely.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

(smile) Well, you are consistent. Though I must say, I know many Christians who would disagree with you.

(chuckle) You know, according to your opinion, I should have moved elsewhere a whole ton of times! Because we homeschool. I've breastfed in my children in public places illegally. I've given birth at home illegally. I've bought eggs from my neighbours illegally...

Just recently, my home province wanted to enact some pretty awful laws that would have prevented me from exerting my profession. Was I upset? Oh, yes. But did I leave? No. Because you see, as members of society, we have a responsibility to participate in our societies. There are always unjust laws. They may not have been designed to be unjust, but they may end up being so. And, if we care about our societies, we need to engage with them.

So instead of leaving, I engaged. I joined up with all sorts of other people who agreed that the proposed legislation was unjust, and even dangerous to the fabric of our society as a whole. And you know what? We won this struggle. The government proposing the legislation had its biggest electoral defeat in 30 years. Because you see, after all the debate and discussion we had, my people decided that we did not like this legislation. We decided to be more accepting of each other's differences.

Because you see, we live in a democracy. We believe that everyone has the right to voice their opinions and be heard.

 

[daveyats]

(smile) Well, you are consistent. Though I must say, I know many Christians who would disagree with you.

(chuckle) You know, according to your opinion, I should have moved elsewhere a whole ton of times! Because we homeschool. I've breastfed in my children in public places illegally. I've given birth at home illegally. I've bought eggs from my neighbours illegally...

Just recently, my home province wanted to enact some pretty awful laws that would have prevented me from exerting my profession. Was I upset? Oh, yes. But did I leave? No. Because you see, as members of society, we have a responsibility to participate in our societies. There are always unjust laws. They may not have been designed to be unjust, but they may end up being so. And, if we care about our societies, we need to engage with them.

So instead of leaving, I engaged. I joined up with all sorts of other people who agreed that the proposed legislation was unjust, and even dangerous to the fabric of our society as a whole. And you know what? We won this struggle. The government proposing the legislation had its biggest electoral defeat in 30 years. Because you see, after all the debate and discussion we had, my people decided that we did not like this legislation. We decided to be more accepting of each other's differences.

Because you see, we live in a democracy. We believe that everyone has the right to voice their opinions and be heard.

that is the "beauty" of democracy, everyone's rights and opinions are given fair representation. Yes, the other option is to get yourself heard and hopefully get the laws changed in your favor. but if the laws do not remain in your favor, i think it is fair enough to say you should respect it because you are sharing the country with people of other beliefs. Honestly, i don't even think the original question should've been asked in the first place unless the TS was referring to laws that are discriminatory.

 

[saif-uddin]

that is the "beauty" of democracy, everyone's rights and opinions are given fair representation. Yes, the other option is to get yourself heard and hopefully get the laws changed in your favor. but if the laws do not remain in your favor, i think it is fair enough to say you should respect it because you are sharing the country with people of other beliefs. Honestly, i don't even think the original question should've been asked in the first place unless the TS was referring to laws that are discriminatory.

Democracy gives rise to Hypocrisy,

It exists to please the people, it less concerned about right and wrong,

Democracy in short is the rule of the people for the people by the people,

This unfortunately given rise to a schism,

Where it's laws are steeped in subjectivity, bas d upon votes of people,

Sometimes right can easily be made into a wrong and vice versa,

As Muslims we know that our creator Allah tala knows better, than flawed human beings, with a limited intellect

Regards

 

[ardianto]

My message to Muslims in UK.

It's okay if you disagree with British law, but please, don't be provocative through down on the street and rant anywhere "Law of the land go to hell!" or "Democracy go to hell!". It gives bad impression toward Islam and toward Muslims in general.

It's better if you use your time for dawah to clarify misconception toward Islam.

 

[saif-uddin]

My message to Muslims in UK.

It's okay if you disagree with British law, but please, don't be provocative through down on the street and rant anywhere "Law of the land go to hell!" or "Democracy go to hell!". It gives bad impression toward Islam and toward Muslims in general.

It's better if you use your time for dawah to clarify misconception toward Islam.

It wasn't about just dissagreeing with British laws,

Non Muslim British citizens do that ask the time.

I merely pointed out the fact that democracy is inherently fallible

Here's a few quotes on democracy...

"The great thing about democracy is that it gives every voter a chance to do something stupid"

(Art Spander)

"Here's another one..Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few."

(George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950), Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists")





Regards

 

[ardianto]

It wasn't about just dissagreeing with British laws,

Non Muslim British citizens do that ask the time.

I merely pointed out the fact that democracy is inherently fallible

Here's a few quotes on democracy...

"The great thing about democracy is that it gives every voter a chance to do something stupid"

(Art Spander)

"Here's another one..Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few."

(George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950), Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists")





Regards

In Indonesia, Hizbut Tahrir declare that they are anti democracy, but they still respect other people who support democracy, and do not do provocative action like down to the street to protest general election.

It's okay if there are Muslims in UK who anti democracy, but they must respect other people who support democracy, and they must not do provocative action.

To be honest, when I read the thread title, suddenly I remember a video that show someone in UK lead demonstration which he yelled "Law of the land go to hell!". To be honest too, I often watched videos about Muslims in UK and I am very concerned with provocative actions that done by few Muslims in UK.

 

[MuslimInshallah]

that is the "beauty" of democracy, everyone's rights and opinions are given fair representation. Yes, the other option is to get yourself heard and hopefully get the laws changed in your favor. but if the laws do not remain in your favor, i think it is fair enough to say you should respect it because you are sharing the country with people of other beliefs. Honestly, i don't even think the original question should've been asked in the first place unless the TS was referring to laws that are discriminatory.

(twinkle) Actually, I've lived in feudal and clan-based societies, too. And they can work pretty well, too. And so can democracy, which is the system where I presently live. No system is perfect (nor could it ever be), but as a Muslim, I need to understand my society and engage in it. If I see something unjust, then it is my duty, as a Muslim, to try to use the societal mechanisms at my disposal to right that injustice.


Unless I am suffering a severe oppression, I believe, I should not run away from a situation.


Regarding the issue of multiple wives. I think everyone is barking up the wrong tree, frankly. The reality is, is that there are men engaging in multiple de facto conjugal relationships the world over. However, the women and children involved in these relationships may or may not be protected under the legislation of their countries. Traditionally, in Anglo-American societies, we have made the decision that only the women and children in the officially registered relationship are protected by our laws. We gave no status to the other conjugal relationships. We called the women mistresses, and their children...well, I don't like to use foul language.


I don't know the laws in the UK. I do know that in my home province, we decided to protect the rights of the children. We decided (as a society) that all children, regardless of the official status of the parents, have the right to parental support. Whether the fathers wish to acknowledge paternity or not, they have no choice (it's easy enough to prove these days). They have to support their children.


We also have started to recognize that women in non-official marital (common-law) relationships may need protective mechanisms. You see, upon divorce, the spouses' common assets must be split 50-50. And a woman (or man, actually. But it's usually the woman who is in the weaker position) may be able to claim spousal support. But this is only for civilly-registered marriages.


So now we also have the option of drawing up a cohabitation agreement. This is a legal contract (best done before cohabitation) that sets out the rights and responsibilities of both parties in the event of a split-up. It's actually a lot like a Muslim marriage contract.


Officially, it is not legal to marry more than one wife. But in reality, well, as former Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau put it, we believe that “There's no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation”. People are free to chose how they wish to live their lives, as long as no one is harmed. Including Muslims.


So if Muslims are free to arrange their personal lives and the weak are protected, what need is there for unpleasantness about these sorts of questions? And what need to leave one's country?


(smile) Do we have disagreements as to what constitutes “harm”, and how we protect the weak, and what mechanisms we use to resolve problems...? Yes, of course. But this is the life God Gave us. We are supposed to struggle with these questions (which will never be fully and finally resolved in this life), be civil with those who disagree with us, and do the best we can with the circumstances we have.


At least, this is how I understand Allah's Will. But only He really Knows.

 

[ardianto]

Regarding the issue of multiple wives. I think everyone is barking up the wrong tree, frankly. The reality is, is that there are men engaging in multiple de facto conjugal relationships the world over. However, the women and children involved in these relationships may or may not be protected under the legislation of their countries. Traditionally, in Anglo-American societies, we have made the decision that only the women and children in the officially registered relationship are protected by our laws. We gave no status to the other conjugal relationships. We called the women mistresses, and their children...well, I don't like to use foul language.

In Indonesia, if a Muslim want to marry second wife, he should get permission from sharia court. So, his second wife will be officially registered as his wife. Actually is not difficult to get this permission. As long as he get permission from the first wife (or older wives for third and fourth marriage), and sharia court consider him capable to have more than one wife, he will get this permission.

But very rare men who request permission from sharia court because usually they don't get permission from the first wife. So they marry the second wife secretly without register it to sharia court and civilian record office.

 

[hisnameiszzz]

for gods sake, if you choose to be a citizen of a country or are a citizen by virtue of birth, you are subject to its laws. the same laws that regulate your behavior are the same laws that provide you protection and benefits. if you disagree with the law you are free to move elsewhere that allows you to do whatever you want like marry 4 or 99 wives.

if you're unhappy that there are laws that restrict the way you practice your religion you should move to an islamic state or something. if the country you live in, is multi-religious and allows freedom of religion for all, you need to recognize that some compromise needs to be made to be fair to everyone.

The question was just a general question. I am not married once and when I am, I will only want one wife, many thanks.

Actually, I like your ideology. Crime and such things are against the law too, just push them out into a different country and then there would be no need for prisons and such like. Happy days. Wooohoo! ^o)

 

[daveyats]

The question was just a general question. I am not married once and when I am, I will only want one wife, many thanks.

Actually, I like your ideology. Crime and such things are against the law too, just push them out into a different country and then there would be no need for prisons and such like. Happy days. Wooohoo! ^o)

I think you do know that you're twisting my words to mean something I didn't right? I'm talking about respecting the rights and the beliefs of the other citizens who share in the same land as you. If you live in this land, you live by the laws of the land.
musliminshallah, i hope you get that too. its not about running away.

how do you like if some guy comes into a halal restaurant and demands for pork dishes to be on the menu? If he wanted to eat pork, he can jolly well get it from a non-muslim establishment.

I admit your question got me riled up and i've probably over-reacted. unless the laws prevent you from performing something essential to your faith, e.g. friday prayers or wearing the hijab in public, I really don't think you should be asking whether you are allowed to do anything illegal in the name of religion.