[lostman]

Hey there brothers....

I have been brought up as a muslim and am now 20 years old... but I do have a problem.

I don't see the point of Islam anymore... and I know that sounds outrageous on an islamic board - but I want you to hear what I have to say before you start telling me I'm going to hell.

Here's why I quit.

Fear. Fear. Fear.

If you do this, you'll get a reward. If you do that you'll get punished.

The fact is, you muslims strive to be "perfect" in the eyes of god so they don't get "punished"... what kind of way to live is that?

Why should I fear Allah? In nature, the strongest animals survive, it's just a fact of life. You can tell me that I should be greatful for my blessings - and I am - but different people have different struggles and that's what makes life worth living.

Here's something I want you to think about...

- NO historical proof that the prophet even existed
- All "proof" is just OTHER related islamic books from his early followers (if he even existed)
- There is no historical, or scientific proof that the moon was ever split
- Muslims fight amongst, and are seperated by different belief systems within the SAME religion (shiah, sunni, milaade, jamate... WHATEVER MAN!)

And control...

The world is changing fast. And it's because music, TV, media, consumerism and all that garbage that gets peddled for "life" out there...

But WHO owns these channels of control? The RICHEST people do... and if you do your due diligence and research control structures, you would know that 1% of the elite super rich have massive control over everything that you experience.

Does "allah" expect EVERYONE to know that they are being controlled? and manipulated by violence, sex, perverted thoughts (homosexuality, feminism, demasculinization) drugs, war, and all that stuff that leaves many people crippled in their own state of mind?

Doesn't it make sense that the same people who control this world could be controlling YOU through religion by keeping you stuck in a perpetual state of fear of god, fear of making mistakes, fear of missing your prayers, fear of this and that...?

And my thoughts regarding women...

We were made to pro-create. I don't believe in having to get married before you have sex. Sex is a part of growing up, becoming a man, knowing yourself, and exchanging energy with a woman... and since when did having a contract that says your married come into play?

A piece of paper that says you're in a relationship means nothing to me.

And avoiding women makes you creepier, and creepier as you get older... I was extremely shy in high school because I didn't fit in - I stuttered and mumbled like an idiot whenever I was talking to a beautiful woman - and it made me awkward.

.... That's all I have time for right now - I want to talk about this more so I will be back soon to continue. You can leave your thoughts for the time being.

 

[جوري]

Losing Faith - No... I mean lost it already

What are you hoping for by posting this? You can't solve queries/problems with the same mindset used to create them-- I'd say it is about time you were getting on with your life as for your psychosocial retardation, I am sure some group therapy will be beneficial not a public diatribe.

all the best

 

[Alpha Dude]

I don't see the point of Islam anymore... and I know that sounds outrageous on an islamic board - but I want you to hear what I have to say before you start telling me I'm going to hell.

As long as you don't insult or mock the Islamic faith in your stay here and your intentions are to have a sincere conversation, then that's fine.

With regards to condemning you to hell - may Allah guide you to faith instead. Aameen.

We will be judged according to whether we die in a state of faith, so we Muslims should never take our own iman for granted in the first instance. No matter how much worship we do, if our last moment on Earth is a faithless one, we will be punished and our deeds would be worthless.

Fear. Fear. Fear.

If you do this, you'll get a reward. If you do that you'll get punished.

The fact is, you muslims strive to be "perfect" in the eyes of god so they don't get "punished"... what kind of way to live is that?

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

You are only seeing this from one side. Perhaps your experience of Islam to date has been one where people have only been showing you to have fear of Allah but that is a totally incorrect approach. Yes, fear is necessary but at the same time, you need hope and love for Allah.

We can't always have total fear of Allah thinking that Allah will destroy us for the tiniest of things so that we are never able to have a moment's peace.

At the same time, however, we can't always have hope in Allah thinking that Allah will forgive anything and everything we do. We'd end up complacent and go on to commit sin after sin.

Balance is required. We take the middle and moderate path. Have hope in the mercy of Allah (Allah is All Merciful, All Compassionate afterall, these are his well known attributes) and at the same time, we fear his punishment. That way, we don't go astray either way.

If we commit a sin, it's not the end of the world. It's very important to not live in despair and fear. Allah has created us sinful in nature. It is natural that we will sin.

However, He wants us to seek sincere repentance and he will forgive us if we are genuine.

Why should I fear Allah? In nature, the strongest animals survive, it's just a fact of life. You can tell me that I should be greatful for my blessings - and I am - but different people have different struggles and that's what makes life worth living.

He created us. We are to love him and to fear him for what he can do to us. Once again, balance.

Here's something I want you to think about...

- NO historical proof that the prophet even existed
- All "proof" is just OTHER related islamic books from his early followers (if he even existed)
- There is no historical, or scientific proof that the moon was ever split
- Muslims fight amongst, and are seperated by different belief systems within the SAME religion (shiah, sunni, milaade, jamate... WHATEVER MAN!)

Even the most ardent of Islamophobes don't deny that Prophet Muhammad Sallalahu Alaihe Wasalam existed.

If he didn't exist, who did write the Quran? Who united the many fractured Arab tribes and made them go on to conquer much of the known world? These early people went and risked their lives for the cause of Islam. If they did not, then there would be no Islam. So we can ascertain that something definitely possessed them to do what they did. What was it? A poem? A metaphor? Who would give their life for something that they were not sure of?

Regarding muslims fighting amongst each other - what exactly is your point? How does that affect the veracity/truthfullness if Islam?

We believe that there will always be strife and tribulation in this world. A fundamental tenet of the faith is the we will be tested. There is not going to be any everlasting utopia on this world.

Our time in this world is transitory. It lasts a day or part of a day of the 'real' time (of the hereafter). It's a worthless world, existing purely for the sake of a test.

We are told time and time again not to be materialistic people. Money doesn't mean anything if we are devoid of guidance. By contrast, being destitute and struggling for food whilst being content and thankful to Allah for the guidance he has given is priceless to us in the hereafter.

As to why there is such a split amongts Muslims - firstly, we believe in shaytan/iblees. An avowed enemy on to us. He will do anything in his power to mislead us.

Secondly, each person has his own nafs (dark inner desires) that he needs to overcome.

This explosive mix of shaytan whispering bad things into our hearts and corrupting us, coupled with our own inner desires which we need to overcome, lead us to do immoral things.

So it's understandable that there are divisions amongst Muslims. People for whatever reason, have behaved in a less than honorouable manner throughout our past and present and they will continue to do so.

HOWEVER, this is a reflection on them. NOT the Islamic faith.

Shaytan in his enmity to mankind will most definitely try to corrupt the true religion of Islam. It stands to reason, again, that you have such divisions then.

And control...

The world is changing fast. And it's because music, TV, media, consumerism and all that garbage that gets peddled for "life" out there...

But WHO owns these channels of control? The RICHEST people do... and if you do your due diligence and research control structures, you would know that 1% of the elite super rich have massive control over everything that you experience.

Does "allah" expect EVERYONE to know that they are being controlled? and manipulated by violence, sex, perverted thoughts (homosexuality, feminism, demasculinization) drugs, war, and all that stuff that leaves many people crippled in their own state of mind?

Allah has informed us that he has created each human being in a state of fitrah. A clean slate. We get corrupted by our environment.

Allah tells us that truth stands clear from falsehood. So we have been created in such a way that we know what is right and wrong when it is presented to us. The issue is, will we act upon what we know to be right or go on the wrong?

For example, if you tell a person theft is wrong, that would stand clear to reason. In cases where people give in to it, it's not a matter of them not knowing it is wrong: they will do it because it feels good to them (e.g. stealing the latest iphone), despite having full awareness that it is wrong.

People give in to their dark desires. This is wrong and THIS is what Allah wants us to fight against. He has made us susceptible and weak. He has made us thirst for material comforts and pleasures. We need to fight them and it can be done if we:

(i) use our willpower
(ii) make dua! Seek guidance from and refuge in Allah from all evil.

We pray Surah Fatiha several times, with each of the five time daily prayers. This surah has a verse 'ihdinas siratul mustaqeem', which is a supplication, asking Allah to show us the correct path.

So despite all these temptations and problems we find, we need to show our servitude to Allah and seek help from him.

Doesn't it make sense that the same people who control this world could be controlling YOU through religion by keeping you stuck in a perpetual state of fear of god, fear of making mistakes, fear of missing your prayers, fear of this and that...?

Please set yourself straight: Ultimate control of everything belongs to Allah. Whatever control the people in this world have has been bestowed upon them by Allah as a gift. It is up to them how they use it. If they use it in a bad manner, they will be reckoned for it.

And my thoughts regarding women...

We were made to pro-create.

Wrong. We were made to worship Allah. Getting married and procreating is part and parcel of life and CAN be considered worship if and when the right formalities are observed and pure intentions kept.

I don't believe in having to get married before you have sex. Sex is a part of growing up, becoming a man, knowing yourself, and exchanging energy with a woman... and since when did having a contract that says your married come into play?

This is nonsense. You simply wish to indulge in your inner desires without having to commit to anything. Walk in and walk out.

You are trying to degrade the status of man. We are RESPONSIBLE and have RESPONSIBILITIES. We don't live like animals. You might as well walk around naked if you think we are nothing but animals.

A piece of paper that says you're in a relationship means nothing to me.

Nikkah is a CONTRACT that is signed. When you sign up for one, you have rights and duties to fulfil and rights and duties to expect. For example, a man has the right that his wife provides for his sexual needs and a woman has the right granted by this contract that her husband provides food and shelter for her.

If a man cannot control his sexual desire, Islamic law has given him the ability to marry up to four women - in fact, it becomes wajib/near compulsory upon him to take on more wives if he is in fear of commiting adultery.

To be perfectly honest, I think your reasons are due to lack of Islamic knowledge and more related to side issues, rather than any dissatisfaction with the Islamic theology (how can you hate it when you don't even know the beauty of it yet).

First, kindly try to learn about Islam properly, before dismissing it.

 

[جوري]

This is nonsense.

That about sums it up.. I have to say Kudos to you that you took the time out for this-- I couldn't be bothered to dignify that much emotive drivel with a response.

 

[GuestFellow]

Losing Faith - No... I mean lost it already

Then what is the purpose of this topic?

We were made to pro-create. I don't believe in having to get married before you have sex. Sex is a part of growing up, becoming a man, knowing yourself, and exchanging energy with a woman... and since when did having a contract that says your married come into play? A piece of paper that says you're in a relationship means nothing to me.

The contract protects the rights of women.

And avoiding women makes you creepier, and creepier as you get older... I was extremely shy in high school because I didn't fit in - I stuttered and mumbled like an idiot whenever I was talking to a beautiful woman - and it made me awkward.

You should have been studying. There is nothing wrong with being shy. I'm shy and I use it to my advantage.

Muslims fight amongst, and are seperated by different belief systems within the SAME religion (shiah, sunni, milaade, jamate... WHATEVER MAN!)

...Your point?

I personally have no energy to address your remaining points. You should study Islam properly. Find a book about Islam and read, from the basics to the advance.

 

[أحمد]

Hey there brothers....

I have been brought up as a muslim and am now 20 years old... but I do have a problem.

I don't see the point of Islam anymore... and I know that sounds outrageous on an islamic board - but I want you to hear what I have to say before you start telling me I'm going to hell.

Fear. Fear. Fear.

Islam is a complete way of life, which takes us out of the mindset of slavery to and from others; we are only slaves of our creator. We have nothing to fear from any creature, nor fear death. We fear only our creator. This fear is unlike the "socially acceptable" cowardice, which we are taught by our "elders", "teachers" and "peers". If you love someone so much, that displeasing them is a fearful concept; you've come out of the limits of irrational fears. This is perfectly acceptable in reality; though it maybe unacceptable in the common social pyramids of thought.

You're only 20, and you "don't see the point of Islam anymore". This is a big step for someone who hasn't "been around" for very long; there're people who've lived for 70 years or more, which gave them a little more time to experience this dunyah. Even they haven't lived long enough to say they don't see the point of Islam, based on their few misconceptions taught to throughout a short lifetime. If you don't understand the point of something; simply ask. And no, we're not here to send people to hell.

You mentioned fear three times; giving it rather a unique importance above anything and all else. In fact, although we do fear Allah; this isn't all Islam is about. I'm sure if you studied enough to make a rational decision to leave Islam; you've already at least studied the Quran and a number of ahadeeth. Both of which explain much more to Islam than your post comes anywhere near to scrape.

If you have questions; ask. Don't take out your anger upon a religion, which you've failed to understand. By no means does this indicate no fault upon others influencing your way of thinking, or your misunderstanding of the deen.

:wa:

 

[Woodrow]

Hey there brothers....

I have been brought up as a muslim and am now 20 years old... but I do have a problem.

I don't see the point of Islam anymore... and I know that sounds outrageous on an islamic board - but I want you to hear what I have to say before you start telling me I'm going to hell.

Here's why I quit.

Fear. Fear. Fear.

If you do this, you'll get a reward. If you do that you'll get punished.

The fact is, you muslims strive to be "perfect" in the eyes of god so they don't get "punished"... what kind of way to live is that?

Why should I fear Allah? In nature, the strongest animals survive, it's just a fact of life. You can tell me that I should be greatful for my blessings - and I am - but different people have different struggles and that's what makes life worth living.

Here's something I want you to think about...

- NO historical proof that the prophet even existed
- All "proof" is just OTHER related islamic books from his early followers (if he even existed)
- There is no historical, or scientific proof that the moon was ever split
- Muslims fight amongst, and are seperated by different belief systems within the SAME religion (shiah, sunni, milaade, jamate... WHATEVER MAN!)

And control...

The world is changing fast. And it's because music, TV, media, consumerism and all that garbage that gets peddled for "life" out there...

But WHO owns these channels of control? The RICHEST people do... and if you do your due diligence and research control structures, you would know that 1% of the elite super rich have massive control over everything that you experience.

Does "allah" expect EVERYONE to know that they are being controlled? and manipulated by violence, sex, perverted thoughts (homosexuality, feminism, demasculinization) drugs, war, and all that stuff that leaves many people crippled in their own state of mind?

Doesn't it make sense that the same people who control this world could be controlling YOU through religion by keeping you stuck in a perpetual state of fear of god, fear of making mistakes, fear of missing your prayers, fear of this and that...?

And my thoughts regarding women...

We were made to pro-create. I don't believe in having to get married before you have sex. Sex is a part of growing up, becoming a man, knowing yourself, and exchanging energy with a woman... and since when did having a contract that says your married come into play?

A piece of paper that says you're in a relationship means nothing to me.

And avoiding women makes you creepier, and creepier as you get older... I was extremely shy in high school because I didn't fit in - I stuttered and mumbled like an idiot whenever I was talking to a beautiful woman - and it made me awkward.

.... That's all I have time for right now - I want to talk about this more so I will be back soon to continue. You can leave your thoughts for the time being.

Akhi,

Your thoughts and words are not unique. Many in your age group have experienced the same thought. But, you are one of the few to openly express them. I see that is a good sign as your are seeking verification of the validity or invalidity of your thoughts. Always seek verification of all things.

You do not have to even be a Muslim to have those thoughts. Many of us here came from other faiths or even no faiths. A good many of us felt very similar to the way you are feeling today and in different ways have said almost the very same words. But, we discovered Islam and found hope and promise of a future. We found our past beliefs and non-Beliefs were wrong and saw Islam as a bright guiding light that led us home.

Is it you do not believe in Islam or is it you no longer want to believe in Islam?

I see you as seeker looking for a way to justify your beliefs and in doing so you came herein anticipation we would condemn you and by that give you a reason to leave Islam. Sorry, to disappoint you. Mostof us here will do no more that let you know the door is always open for you to return home. but, if it is your desire to have your freedom out in the cold, so be it, that is your choice.

No matter what your choice is, make it out of knowledge and not personal desire.

 

[lostman]

Thank you for your informative replies. The reason I am asking these questions on a forum is because understandably, a Maulana or elder would get easily offended if I asked these questions. Please do not take offense... I am seeking clarification for myself and get burning questions answered by people who may have an open mind.


Heres the thing...

I see your points. But many of you FAIL to step outside of the islamic box and see things from my point of view - then you proceed to bash me about why my beliefs are wrong.

You underestimate your own abilities to make the right choices without seeking "help"... we all have our internal battles but having to seek help from Allah seems self defeating. Why? Because you already have the strength to pull through situations and hardship, yet you want to attribute your own strength to a Supreme being which put us in these situations in the first place (if that's what you want to believe).

Also Bedouin:

Our time in this world is transitory. It lasts a day or part of a day of the 'real' time (of the hereafter). It's a worthless world, existing purely for the sake of a test.

We are told time and time again not to be materialistic people. Money doesn't mean anything if we are devoid of guidance. By contrast, being destitute and struggling for food whilst being content and thankful to Allah for the guidance he has given is priceless to us in the hereafter.

Saying that this world is a "test" is one of those things that just really annoys me. It's because it's like saying you don't need to try and strive for anything, make yourself better, and only live to have fear, make sure you don't do anything wrong, "try" to be a perfect muslim, etc. It's like you're waiting for a pat on the back after you die. So you struggle for all these years for something that nobody can be 100% sure about.

I wouldn't say this world is "worthless". You have the choice to make it as good or as bad as you want it to be... but you say that enjoying this life is "worthless" when in fact it's precious (to me) and making it worth every last second.

I agree, materialism is a terrible thing. But you are also assuming that having money means you are without guidance (and not just in a religious sense). Mind telling me why?

We can't always have total fear of Allah thinking that Allah will destroy us for the tiniest of things so that we are never able to have a moment's peace.

At the same time, however, we can't always have hope in Allah thinking that Allah will forgive anything and everything we do. We'd end up complacent and go on to commit sin after sin.

Here's a reason why I say that muslims seems to perpetuate a fear driven state. What makes you think everyone would be a sinner if it wasn't for Allah? As I mentioned earlier you are underestimating your own judgement. I don't steal stuff from people because I would be angry if someone stole from me. I don't need Allah to tell me why it's bad and that I'll get punished for doing it.

Wrong. We were made to worship Allah. Getting married and procreating is part and parcel of life and CAN be considered worship if and when the right formalities are observed and pure intentions kept.

Did cavemen need a license to reproduce? No. And I am not equating us to cavemen - but hear me out below:

This is nonsense. You simply wish to indulge in your inner desires without having to commit to anything. Walk in and walk out.

You are trying to degrade the status of man. We are RESPONSIBLE and have RESPONSIBILITIES. We don't live like animals. You might as well walk around naked if you think we are nothing but animals.

Where did I degrade the status of men? And where did I say that being a man doesn't come with responsibilities?

And as for my desires.... well, they are NATURAL desires - why should I suppress them? Just because "God" told me it's bad?

That's all for now, thank you for paying attention brothers.

 

[Dagless]

Firstly I find it odd you have come here to ask questions when you could have found most, if not all, of these answers elsewhere. The main one for me was your statement questioning the Prophet (pbuh) existed. There is so much evidence for this that even a simple google search could have put your doubts to rest... so again I wonder why you asked it here.

You underestimate your own abilities to make the right choices without seeking "help"... we all have our internal battles but having to seek help from Allah seems self defeating. Why? Because you already have the strength to pull through situations and hardship, yet you want to attribute your own strength to a Supreme being which put us in these situations in the first place (if that's what you want to believe).

What strength do you have other than that which you've been given? You didn't make yourself and you cannot save yourself. Even events are beyond your control despite your best efforts.

Here's a reason why I say that muslims seems to perpetuate a fear driven state. What makes you think everyone would be a sinner if it wasn't for Allah? As I mentioned earlier you are underestimating your own judgement. I don't steal stuff from people because I would be angry if someone stole from me. I don't need Allah to tell me why it's bad and that I'll get punished for doing it.

History proves otherwise.

Did cavemen need a license to reproduce? No. And I am not equating us to cavemen - but hear me out below:

Where did I degrade the status of men? And where did I say that being a man doesn't come with responsibilities?

And as for my desires.... well, they are NATURAL desires - why should I suppress them? Just because "God" told me it's bad?

The religion tells you the right way of doing something. It's like someone telling you not to touch a hot pan; you can obey or you can disobey, learn the hard way and get hurt in the process. Sleeping with many women outside of marriage is wrong. You can obey, or you can sleep around, try to work out how to support all the women, their children, treat them right, treat their families right, deal with jealousy, cheating, crack under the pressure, run out on your responsibility, etc. etc. You'll probably learn in the end, but it will be expensive. Not to mention the sins.

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Hey there brothers....

That's all for now, thank you for paying attention brothers.

are sisters not allowed to post in this thread?

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

.... I don't believe in having to get married before you have sex. .

a man asked permission from Prophet Muhammed pbuh to commit adultery . Prophet pbuh said , will u be happy if someone commits zina with your mother ? The man was shocked and answered, no.

Prophet pbuh again asked , what about if a man commits zina with your sis ?

Again the man said , no. Thus Prophet pbuh repeated the question regarding his wife , daughter and each time the man said , no . I won't tolerate if any man has such relationship with any of my female family members. He then understoon his mistake .

Now , bro , ask the same questions to yourself . What if ur mom tells u she does does not believe is marriage system and will have many sex partners ? Will u say it's ok ?

 

[tigerkhan]

i have read ur msg. i feel sampathy for u. to me its seems u are really LOST. ALLAH SWT keep mercy on U. i remember my one friend of college. we are firend in college and then we both join same university. in uni He goes on wrong side, drinking, sex etc etc...i feel for him and often i went to him but he was always very tough and rude to me. in 3rd year,one day i went to him and that what he say me; bro blv its is rite that "drink is base for every sin". he say i drink so much and thay y i dislike u that time and i dislike every good thing and my heart want to do every bad. but now i leave drinking and blv everything is going well.
so i just say bro if u are involved in Haram things, just stop.... i hope ALLAH SWT will fill ur heart with satisfation and all this confused and puzzeled state of ur mind will be removed.

2nd thing what i want to say, since ur just 20, growing stage. and it seems u had much effect of propoganda of west media on U, i suggest try to join some islamic forum and company. and i think u are not lost already bcz if so u dont post ur pbm here, there is something in u, its make u post ur pbm and worries about ur faith here. so keep it up with sincere intention to find the truth and my brotherly advise will be 1. leave haram things if its so, and learn about islam from soem one with knowledge and piouty.
sorry for weak english if u fell difficulty in understanding some lines.

 

[*charisma*]

Islam is not about doing things out of fear of Allah or refraining from things due to fearing Allah. Nor is it about paradise or hellfire. Islam is worshipping Allah and whether it is out of fear or love towards Allah is the individual's choice.

Saying that this world is a "test" is one of those things that just really annoys me. It's because it's like saying you don't need to try and strive for anything, make yourself better, and only live to have fear, make sure you don't do anything wrong, "try" to be a perfect muslim, etc. It's like you're waiting for a pat on the back after you die. So you struggle for all these years for something that nobody can be 100% sure about.

This really makes no sense. If this world is a test how can you not need to strive for anything??

And no matter what path of life you choose buddy, you're going to have struggles, that's just life. Islam is a way of life that connects all the Muslims with the same guidance. There are people who aren't Muslim, living what appears to be a wonderful life, but they are not satisfied for whatever reason and on the other end there are Muslims who have very little and are completely satisifed with their lifestyle. It's all a matter of how you perceive your life no matter what religion you follow.

Here's a reason why I say that muslims seems to perpetuate a fear driven state. What makes you think everyone would be a sinner if it wasn't for Allah? As I mentioned earlier you are underestimating your own judgement. I don't steal stuff from people because I would be angry if someone stole from me. I don't need Allah to tell me why it's bad and that I'll get punished for doing it.

This is all going to come down to what is perceived as a sin. In Islam it's clear-cut what a sin is and what isn't, and by studying the previous nations, we know according to the Islamic definition of a sin, pre-Islam, people were sinners because they didn't have proper guidance. Furthermore, we are by nature sinners. However, if we wanted to look at it from your perspective, a sin in Islam may not seem like a sin at all to you. Yet in Islam everything is laid out and universal, so we know we're all on the same page. You don't need Allah to tell you stealing is bad, yet there are many thieves in the world, right? And how would you punish a thief? In America, a theif is a thief, no matter what he steals or his economic status, but in Islam Allah grants mercy to those who steal out of extreme necessity, ignorance, etc.

And as for my desires.... well, they are NATURAL desires - why should I suppress them? Just because "God" told me it's bad?

There are logical reasons for this actually, even if you removed religious incentives. You just said people are influenced by the media, why do you have to be one of them? Personally, whether Muslim or not, I prefer not to give up my innocense and purity especially to a guy who only wants to play around. You don't know the true intention of a man or a woman unless they choose to remain chaste for each other, then choose marriage and lay it down on a paper, with dowry, public exposure, and plan a LIFE together because that is more stable than to go from one person on to the next. Otherwise, you're just playing around, testing the waters for your own ardent desire.

You didn't lose your faith, you're just lost--in general.

 

['Abd Al-Maajid]

mad_scientist and I say: Don't feed the troll.

 

[Alpha Dude]

Lostman, most of your points are nothing but philosophical musings. There is nothing objective that you say which disproves the theology.

It's fine to say 'this world being a test annoys me' but from that you can't go on to say 'therefore, Islam couldn't be real'. That's an absurd conclusion. As is your 'i have natural desires inside me and Islam doesn't let me have sex with whoever I want, therefore Islam isn't real' and 'Allah tells us to have fear of him, therefore Islam isn't real'.

This isn't a logical nor rational approach to take. All these points make no sense as a reason to leave Islam.

If you are sincere, you need to first look at the primary sources of Islam: The Qur'aan and the life of the Prophet and Messenger, Sallalahu Alaihe Wasalam and evaluate whether it is possible for it to be true.

If we realise it is true, then we submit and accept everything that is mentioned and what you say becomes moot.

You underestimate your own abilities to make the right choices without seeking "help"... we all have our internal battles but having to seek help from Allah seems self defeating. Why? Because you already have the strength to pull through situations and hardship, yet you want to attribute your own strength to a Supreme being which put us in these situations in the first place (if that's what you want to believe).

We don't just attribute the existence of the universe to Allah willy nilly. We have ascertained that Allah exists in the first place. This we have done by reading the scriptures. If we can ascertain Allah exists then it stands to reason that we must obey and attribute strength to him. Why shouldn't we? It's the only logical step forward.

If you can prove Allah doesn't exist, only then you can say what you do here.

Saying that this world is a "test" is one of those things that just really annoys me. It's because it's like saying you don't need to try and strive for anything, make yourself better, and only live to have fear, make sure you don't do anything wrong, "try" to be a perfect muslim, etc. It's like you're waiting for a pat on the back after you die. So you struggle for all these years for something that nobody can be 100% sure about.

Again, what you say here is another philosophical musing.

Is this supposed to be a reason for you to leave Islam?

First and foremost, disprove the theology. If you can do that, then what you say here can be accepted but till then, it means nothing.

I'll answer you all the same. Your assumption that we don't need to strive for anything is false. Muslims can strive for the world. They simply need to do things with the right intention. For example:

'I will become a brain surgeon so that people will have respect for me'
vs.
'I want to be a brain surgeon to help people for the sake of Allah'
​

'I want to be a lawyer because they get paid a lot and I could show off to others'
vs.
'I want to be a lawyer to help people for the sake of Allah'
​

Etc.

I wouldn't say this world is "worthless". You have the choice to make it as good or as bad as you want it to be... but you say that enjoying this life is "worthless" when in fact it's precious (to me) and making it worth every last second.

I agree, materialism is a terrible thing. But you are also assuming that having money means you are without guidance (and not just in a religious sense). Mind telling me why?

I meant having money without guidance only in a religious sense. The reasons for that ought to be obvious.

Here's a reason why I say that muslims seems to perpetuate a fear driven state. What makes you think everyone would be a sinner if it wasn't for Allah? As I mentioned earlier you are underestimating your own judgement. I don't steal stuff from people because I would be angry if someone stole from me. I don't need Allah to tell me why it's bad and that I'll get punished for doing it.

Sin is defined by Allah in the first place. Not believing in Allah itself constitutes a sin.

I suspect what you mean to ask is: "would everyone be immoral if it wasn't for Allah". I.e. the usual 'can there be morality without God' question.

I argue no, there cannot be any objective morality. What one person will consider a bad thing others will not.

You personally may not steal because you don't wish for such things to happen to youself but others may not hold such a mentality.

Did cavemen need a license to reproduce? No. And I am not equating us to cavemen - but hear me out below:

Where did I degrade the status of men? And where did I say that being a man doesn't come with responsibilities?

You degraded it when you said man and woman should go about having sex whenever they please, without any sort of commitment.

Think about this - animals do all sorts of weird things, like homosexual and incestous relations. So the people who have these weird feelings should also go about publicly doing these things? They shouldn't supress their 'feelings'?

And as for my desires.... well, they are NATURAL desires - why should I suppress them? Just because "God" told me it's bad?

Who said supress them? Just go about it the right way. I even said, if you have so much desire, Islam allows you to marry four different women.

Islam even rewards you for fulfulling your natural desires, as long as it is with a spouse of yours!

Once again, I will say: Please look at the PRIMARY SOURCES and try to figure out whether they are true of false. Stop musing over these issues. If you can prove Islam is false, then muse about all you want but till then, none of what you say here is a (logical) reason to leave Islam.

 

[Amat Allah]

May Allah guide you and give you a speedy recovery and all people around the world...Ameeeeeeen

 

[GuestFellow]

I see your points. But many of you FAIL to step outside of the islamic box and see things from my point of view - then you proceed to bash me about why my beliefs are wrong.

Bash? We are just getting started. ^_^

On a serious note, some of us were outside the Islamic box for some time. I used to be agnostic and returned back to Islam.

You underestimate your own abilities to make the right choices without seeking "help"... we all have our internal battles but having to seek help from Allah seems self defeating. Why? Because you already have the strength to pull through situations and hardship, yet you want to attribute your own strength to a Supreme being which put us in these situations in the first place (if that's what you want to believe).

I disagree. Why should not we seek help from our creator? Allah knows us best, and understands what makes us tick. Therefore, we should seek help from Allah. This does not mean Allah will get rid of our problems completely, we will have to put some effort into resolving our problems.

I wouldn't say this world is "worthless". You have the choice to make it as good or as bad as you want it to be... but you say that enjoying this life is "worthless" when in fact it's precious (to me) and making it worth every last second.

Yes, this world is not worthless. It will be of importance to the next generation. This world is temporary and we will not live forever. Becoming to attached to this world will mean nothing once we die. So, it is fine to be happy in this world but becoming too attached is not wise because we should aim to return back to Allah.

Here's a reason why I say that muslims seems to perpetuate a fear driven state. What makes you think everyone would be a sinner if it wasn't for Allah? As I mentioned earlier you are underestimating your own judgement. I don't steal stuff from people because I would be angry if someone stole from me. I don't need Allah to tell me why it's bad and that I'll get punished for doing it.

We all have a general idea of what is right and wrong. However, Muslims must take a step further. Allah has told us how we should live. This includes not to date, not to drink alcohol, not to engage in business transactions that involve interest (riba) and so on. There are some issues when it is difficult to determine whether something is right and wrong, and guidance is required. For example, whether a women should have an abortion or not will require guidance because this is a controversial issue and it is difficult to tell whether it is right or wrong.

Did cavemen need a license to reproduce? No. And I am not equating us to cavemen - but hear me out below:

Where did I degrade the status of men? And where did I say that being a man doesn't come with responsibilities?

And as for my desires.... well, they are NATURAL desires - why should I suppress them? Just because "God" told me it's bad?

It should be practiced within marriage because not to take advantage of women. How would you feel if random men used your female relatives or your daughter for sex? It is a natural desire that can harm yourself (STD) and women. We're just saying to practice this within marriage, geez. Yes, Allah told you its bad. That is the most important reason. :statisfie

Go ahead and trash yourself around like an eel to embrace your desires. It is your choice. :hiding:

 

[أحمد]

I see your points. But many of you FAIL to step outside of the islamic box and see things from my point of view - then you proceed to bash me about why my beliefs are wrong.

Just as you've got the right to reject Islam; we have the right to be Muslims. You've been given the opportunity to ask questions and clear your misconceptions, which isn't wise to waste by complaining that Muslims here haven't left Islam to "see things" from your view.

Secondly, there's been no incidences of harassment towards you. The need to play "victim" show's your lack of interest in knowledge, and more in ignorance.

If you have any questions; ask.

:wa:

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Aslaamu`alaaykum Lostman

Hey there brothers.... .

and sisters also. . . .

I have been brought up as a muslim and am now 20 years old... but I do have a problem..

Alhamdulilaah you have been "brought up" as a muslim, but you didnt even give your "brothers" salam, so im guessing you wasnt taught a lot regarding your faith, im i right?

I don't see the point of Islam anymore... and I know that sounds outrageous on an islamic board - but I want you to hear what I have to say before you start telling me I'm going to hell..

Outrageous indeed!, we are not who decides who goes to hell but your "creator" who knows you more than ourselves!

Here's why I quit.

Fear. Fear. Fear. .


If you do this, you'll get a reward. If you do that you'll get punished. .

If there was no "fear.fear.fear" then we wouldnt stay away from the wrong stuff in life, maybe you should think about that, remember we have free will and its your choice weather you wish to do what "you" want by following your own desires, or what your creator wants, who knows you even more than yourself and knows what is good for you.

The fact is, you muslims strive to be "perfect" in the eyes of god so they don't get "punished"... what kind of way to live is that?.

Is there wrong in "striving" to be perfect? or am i lost? Are you saying its okay to go kill people or take drugs? its okay, do you not realise that we belong to Allaah and we will return to Allaah? What kind of life is that where you live a life and then you die? ask yourself that, Death is reality, Allaah says in his noble book that "every soul shall taste death!", do you need proof for that aye? that is indeed a fact you cannot escape brother no matter what you say or try to do.

Why should I fear Allah? In nature, the strongest animals survive, it's just a fact of life. You can tell me that I should be greatful for my blessings - and I am - but different people have different struggles and that's what makes life worth living..

You should fear Allaah because when you are harming yourself, you are harming the creation of Allaah!, you should fear Allaah when you swear or do a bad thing you will be accountable for it on the day of Qayamah and not me nor anyone, we are all accountable for our own actions. you will be the one stood in front of your Lord on a day where only yourself (your actions/deeds, the asking of forgiveness, your sincerety)can help you. Life is worth living when you follow life the way it should be lived, which is living the way the creator has prescribed for you, ie. staying away from what which is forbidden(as in that can harm you) and doing that which is permissable (which is beneficial and good for you), you decide!

Here's something I want you to think about...

- NO historical proof that the prophet even existed
- All "proof" is just OTHER related islamic books from his early followers (if he even existed)
- There is no historical, or scientific proof that the moon was ever split
- Muslims fight amongst, and are seperated by different belief systems within the SAME religion (shiah, sunni, milaade, jamate... WHATEVER MAN!)

And control....

Other Islaamic books, can you name some inshaAllaah and explain how authentic they are? his "early followers" were those who lived with him, they were not some lies made up. i feel that you have been "brainwashed" by watching or listening to some anti-islamic stuff. The whole sect part you just mentioned such as "Sunni,shia, etc", it was prophesised that there shall be 73 sects and one sect will be of the correct path, and that is indeed the one which follows the Quraan and the Sunnah, that is a proof itself.

The world is changing fast. And it's because music, TV, media, consumerism and all that garbage that gets peddled for "life" out there....

I dont get what any of this has to do with Islam! so it is indeed garbage.

But WHO owns these channels of control? The RICHEST people do... and if you do your due diligence and research control structures, you would know that 1% of the elite super rich have massive control over everything that you experience. .

What has the controlling of media or channels got anything to do with Islaam brother? weather they are rich or poor, i dont understand your point inshaAllaah feel free to elaborate.

Does "allah" expect EVERYONE to know that they are being controlled? and manipulated by violence, sex, perverted thoughts (homosexuality, feminism, demasculinization) drugs, war, and all that stuff that leaves many people crippled in their own state of mind? .

Allaah SWT speaks about the Shaytaan and how he will misguide you in many ways. This whole list you mentioned about violence, perverted thoughts etc are indeed something that Shaytaan can trick man into doing. for example "homosexuality", Allaah your mercyful lord says he created us in pairs, female and male, not male and male or vice versa. This state of mind is something caused by the Shaytaan. maybe you should do some research or listen to lectures regarding the Shaytaan and what he can do! we as muslims seek refugee with Allaah by saying "Aazu billah hi mina`shaaytaan nirajeem" "I seek refugee with Allaah from Shaytaan the outcast".

Doesn't it make sense that the same people who control this world could be controlling YOU through religion by keeping you stuck in a perpetual state of fear of god, fear of making mistakes, fear of missing your prayers, fear of this and that...?.

Nope the media is not controlling us to fear God if thats what you mean :-\.

And my thoughts regarding women...

We were made to pro-create. I don't believe in having to get married before you have sex. Sex is a part of growing up, becoming a man, knowing yourself, and exchanging energy with a woman... and since when did having a contract that says your married come into play?

A piece of paper that says you're in a relationship means nothing to me.

And avoiding women makes you creepier, and creepier as you get older... I was extremely shy in high school because I didn't fit in - I stuttered and mumbled like an idiot whenever I was talking to a beautiful woman - and it made me awkward.

.... That's all I have time for right now - I want to talk about this more so I will be back soon to continue. You can leave your thoughts for the time being.

Okay speaking of "perverted thoughts", you speak of doing stuff before marriage being okay but in reality it is which is wrong. You do realise that Islaam doesnt tell you to keep away from women??if you like women, islaam tells you to do it the correct way which is marriage and not lurking around going to a new women every day. It gives a person a right to be respected. How is it okay to be with a women and committing bad stuff all the time okay? what kinda of ugly life is this brother? These are just your personal views, and what you think are okay i guess, but in reality they are not. I think the brothers and sisters so far who have replied gave you great answers alhamdulilaah, since you asked the Questions you should think about learning something from them.

Feel free to ask any more Questions and i apologise if i sound harsh

wa alaaykum salaam

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Aslaamu alaaykum

Thank you for your informative replies. The reason I am asking these questions on a forum is because understandably, a Maulana or elder would get easily offended if I asked these questions. Please do not take offense... I am seeking clarification for myself and get burning questions answered by people who may have an open mind. .

Im sure they wouldnt get offended if you asked them Questions, but if you mentioned what "you" think it may have.

Heres the thing...

I see your points. But many of you FAIL to step outside of the islamic box and see things from my point of view - then you proceed to bash me about why my beliefs are wrong.

You underestimate your own abilities to make the right choices without seeking "help"... we all have our internal battles but having to seek help from Allah seems self defeating. Why? Because you already have the strength to pull through situations and hardship, yet you want to attribute your own strength to a Supreme being which put us in these situations in the first place (if that's what you want to believe). .

They are not "Beliefs" brother, they are "opinions", belief? you sound like coudnt care less about God and his religion, so i dont see what "belief" you are referring to. If you understood the concept of Life then you would understand about seeking God for help! There are times when one is indeed of help in life, when they are sad or depressed etc, we as muslims advice one to ask Allaah for help, the thing you dont realise is what in return we "recieve" help!. And keep in mind as muslims we are not only adviced to seek for help in our hard times but also to thank Allaah, to ask Allaah make it easy for those in need, such as the needy/poor/ill.

Also Bedouin:

Saying that this world is a "test" is one of those things that just really annoys me. It's because it's like saying you don't need to try and strive for anything, make yourself better, and only live to have fear, make sure you don't do anything wrong, "try" to be a perfect muslim, etc. It's like you're waiting for a pat on the back after you die. So you struggle for all these years for something that nobody can be 100% sure about. .

The fact is that life is a test, and that you havent accepted that yet is reality. If you realise that there are people dying every second around this Dunya (world), there are people happy one day and sad the other, this life isnt all what we want, and realise that you wont achieve your Goal if you wanted to unless you worked hard as there maybe barriers preventing you from achieving that goal, because this is life not a game. I hope i am makin sense.

I wouldn't say this world is "worthless". You have the choice to make it as good or as bad as you want it to be... but you say that enjoying this life is "worthless" when in fact it's precious (to me) and making it worth every last second. .

Yes masha`Allaah i agree, every second is important, because we never when will be our last and final moment, when and how. As muslims we know that Allaah has the power to take our life when he wills as it is easy for him. We try to do all that pleases him untill our last breath for that last breath will be our final and after that there is nothing you can do!

Here's a reason why I say that muslims seems to perpetuate a fear driven state. What makes you think everyone would be a sinner if it wasn't for Allah? As I mentioned earlier you are underestimating your own judgement. I don't steal stuff from people because I would be angry if someone stole from me. I don't need Allah to tell me why it's bad and that I'll get punished for doing it..

There is a concept of "Fear, love and hope", this is how we see it. The fear is good as it stops you from doing wrong. For example in the west if you stole something or killed a person you would be punished for it, now if the person knew that he would be punished for it he would have never done it in the first place, do i make sense? So the fear isnt a bad type of fear but a good type of fear, its for your own good. We have parents to tell us whats good for us and whats bad for us, but if we disobey our parents, will that not make them upset/angry at you? Same concept is applied to God, but remember Allaah is the most forgiving the most mercyful , and i know this because Allaah refers to himself as this.

Where did I degrade the status of men? And where did I say that being a man doesn't come with responsibilities?

And as for my desires.... well, they are NATURAL desires - why should I suppress them? Just because "God" told me it's bad?

That's all for now, thank you for paying attention brothers.

As i explained above, same can be applied to this Question. Yes because "God" told you its bad, and you know it wont change anything from his kingdom, you can go freely do whatso ever you want out there, but remember your only harming your own self! God Allmighty is your creator and he knows whats good for you and whats bad for you, is it wrong for him to let you know? And yes we all have "desires" but we all have the ability to control ourselves, and not push ourselves to do it because its "natural" or "i feel like it" and not because "God" or "someone" told me so.

Wa alaaykum salaam