Losing Faith - No... I mean lost it already

[lostman]

OK... here's the problem I'm having now.

You are using the Quran to "prove" Allah, and you are using Allah to prove the Quran.

I didn't have time to read everybodies replies, but I'll get to it soon.

I will say this... I have studied persuasion for a very long time and I know that religion takes it to the very limit - IE. It uses every "trick" in the book.

Coming from a position of power, promising an "end" result, TELLING you what to do, how to do it, and actually THANKING the "creator" of it for giving you all these rules to abide by.

I don't want to do research because all I end up finding is Christian vs Islamic belief wars on the net. It's just so ridiculous.

I did read Muslima 4 Lifes comments... This is for you:

Is there wrong in "striving" to be perfect? or am i lost? Are you saying its okay to go kill people or take drugs? its okay, do you not realise that we belong to Allaah and we will return to Allaah? What kind of life is that where you live a life and then you die? ask yourself that, Death is reality, Allaah says in his noble book that "every soul shall taste death!", do you need proof for that aye? that is indeed a fact you cannot escape brother no matter what you say or try to do.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when you start assuming things about people who "are not on the path".

I never said any of those things... I don't have the motivation to kill someone, or take drugs because I don't have faith in following religion anymore. Read my comment above on "using Quran to "prove" Allah, and using Allah to prove the Quran."

Other Islaamic books, can you name some inshaAllaah and explain how authentic they are? his "early followers" were those who lived with him, they were not some lies made up. i feel that you have been "brainwashed" by watching or listening to some anti-islamic stuff. The whole sect part you just mentioned such as "Sunni,shia, etc", it was prophesised that there shall be 73 sects and one sect will be of the correct path, and that is indeed the one which follows the Quraan and the Sunnah, that is a proof itself.

I could say the same about you, sister.

My next comment will explain why I believe religion could easily be fabricated. Providing "authentic" proof could be fabricated as well as any other religious book to give more credibility to itself. I've never heard of the 73 sects prophecy, but everyone thinks their own path is the best, so how can you know for sure....?

Allaah SWT speaks about the Shaytaan and how he will misguide you in many ways. This whole list you mentioned about violence, perverted thoughts etc are indeed something that Shaytaan can trick man into doing. for example "homosexuality", Allaah your mercyful lord says he created us in pairs, female and male, not male and male or vice versa. This state of mind is something caused by the Shaytaan. maybe you should do some research or listen to lectures regarding the Shaytaan and what he can do! we as muslims seek refugee with Allaah by saying "Aazu billah hi mina`shaaytaan nirajeem" "I seek refugee with Allaah from Shaytaan the outcast".

The reason why I mentioned the influence of the media, is that you are attributing the "medias" power to shaytaan. Do you understand what I'm getting at?

That's also why I mentioned in my first post that, the same people perpetuating these perveted thoughts of feminism, demasculization, and homosexuality could in fact, have fabricated religion to keep you from making the most of this life (because you'll go to heaven afterwards, remember?).

So why...? Why do you believe that "shaytaan" is trying to persuade you to do the wrong thing, when in fact it's really a "higher" form of control (psychological) from the elite forces of this planet?

That's another topic for another day - but think about it. And I mean THINK!!!

By the way, it's been "prophesized" by the Quran, that men will become more feminine, while women become more masculine, right?

And who's making **** sure that happens?

Think about it...

Think...

THE MEDIA!

Be back soon...

 

[جوري]

You are using the Quran to "prove" Allah, and you are using Allah to prove the Quran.

No one uses the Quran to prove that God exists-- you build pages of buffoonery entirely on false assumptions that you have created in your mind and believe and expect that others carry on from your very faulty premise-- it bewilders me more that others are actually responding to your foolish nonsense as if it holds any merit !.. Abraham and Moses (p) along with all the other messengers and sages didn't have any books to rely on to believe in God. The logic people use to disbelief in God is the same one others use to find God.


To be frank I think it is better to lose someone like you than cater to your absurdities as if you at all matter, that is if you are indeed what you allege we gain far better Muslims wal7mdlillah.. I say good riddance!

____________________
p.s beyond references to literature I recommend that no one else responds to this fellow..

 

[lostman]

Thanks brothers and sisters.

Sigh.

I'm done with it. I just thought that maybe someone would refrain from telling me about what they read in the holy book, and reply to my "nonsense" with fair statements to make me see another point of view.

The logic people use to disbelief in God is the same one others use to find God.

Exactly.

So that would mean you have to consider both sides of the coin.

Where is the (historical or scientific) proof that the moon was ever split? Where is the "scientific" proof that Islam holds so dear? Why does Islam say that semen is created in the backbone (as I recall - correct me if i'm wrong, it was something ridiculous like that), why is it that the elite have the power that you attribute to the media?

It's questions like this that people start to throw quotes at me to decipher because they cannot be truly proven.

I could go up into a mountain, write a massive book, write tales of my believers following and reaping the benefits of my new religion, and make straw man scientific claims and act like it's the new word of god....

If you are aware of your environment, this is exactly what is happening with the "new age" movement today... They have manipulated the information on quantum physics and made it seem all scientific and viable when really, it's just using the law of attraction, which I believe only happens because you worked towards something you wanted.

Whatever floats your boat.

Stay under control. They don't want you to wake up. You have no power without God. You are nothing in this world. You'll get 70 virgins later... be good... not bad... God created the universe just to "test" you... I almost forgot, you can drink wine in heaven too...

My username is LostMan. But I am not "lost" in life. I know what I want, and I'm going to get it one way or another and I'm working diligently to get there. I "prayed" when I was young to help me be "normal", and fit in with the other kids... but nothing ever happened. You can say "ohhhh but it's a test" all you want. But the fact is, Islam has done nothing for me... It's made me wierd, caused me heartaches, and it's tough to deprogram yourself out of that fear based mentality.

My mother still has that type of thinking. She will always try to instil fear of Allah, yet I never ever saw tangible effects of praying, achieving "peace", or having my prayers answered...

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

oh cut out the drama and emotional blackmail.

 

[جوري]

Sigh.

There there..

I'm done with it.

Then why are you still here?

I just thought that maybe someone would refrain from telling me about what they read in the holy book, and reply to my "nonsense" with fair statements to make me see another point of view.

I don't think you are willing to read anything.. it seems you have already made up your mind that you know everything and in such a case you are not only wasting your time.. worse yet you are wasting ours!

Exactly.

Indeed

So that would mean you have to consider both sides of the coin.

Absolutely!

Where is the (historical or scientific) proof that the moon was ever split?

here is an independent eye witness amongst others:
2- Chakrawati Farmas, King of Malabar in India, WITNESSED the splitting of the moon!

The following link was given to me by brother Karim, who is one of the site's authors; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.

From http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/farmas.html:
The incident relating to King Chakrawati Farmas is documented in an old manuscript in the India Office Library, London, which has reference number: Arabic, 2807, 152-173. It is quoted in the book “Muhammad Rasulullah,” by M. Hamidullah:

“There is a very old tradition in Malabar, South-West Coast of India, that Chakrawati Farmas, one of their kings, had observed the splitting of the moon, the celebrated miracle of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) at Mecca, and learning on inquiry that there was a prediction of the coming of a Messenger of God from Arabia, he appointed his son as regent and set out to meet him. He embraced Islam at the hand of the Prophet, and when returning home, at the direction of the Prophet, died at the port of Zafar, Yemen, where the tomb of the “Indian king” was piously visited for many centuries.”
​

The old manuscript in the 'India Office Library' contains several other details about King Chakrawati Farmas and his travel.

The splitting of the moon is mentioned in the Holy Qur'an, Surah Al-Qamar (54), Verses 1-3:

The hour drew nigh and the moon was rent in twain.
And if they behold a portent they turn away and say:
Prolonged illusion.
They denied (the Truth) and followed their own lusts.
Yet everything will come to a decision.
​

According to Maududi, the traditionists and commentators have agreed that this incident took place at Mina in Makkah about five years before the Holy Prophet's Hijra (migration) to Madinah.
The Moon had split into two distinct parts in front of their very eyes. The two parts had separated and receded so much apart from each other that to the on-lookers (in Makkah) one part had appeared on one side of the mountain and the other on the other side of it. Then, in an instant the two had rejoined. This was a manifest proof of the truth that the system of the universe was neither eternal nor immortal, it could be disrupted.
This incident indicated that huge stars and planets could split asunder, disintegrate, collide with each other, and everything that had been described in the Qur'an on the Resurrection could happen. The Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) invited the people's attention to this event only with this object in view and asked them to mark it and be a witness to it. But the disbelievers described it as a magical illusion and persisted in their denial. They were reproached in Surah Al-Qamar (The Moon) for their stubbornness.

Other Relevant Notes:
It is due to this incident about their king, the people of Malabar became the first community in India to accept Islam. Subsequently, they increased their trade with Arabs, as the Arab ships used to pass by their shores on the way to China before the advent of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
Before Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), Malabar also had a Christian community dating back from the earliest followers of Prophet Jesus ('Isa), pbuh. St. Thomas is believed to have migrated to India and died there. This community remained untouched by later theological developments in Christianity until the arrival of Portugese traveler Vasco da Gama.
When the British were consolidating their stronghold in India, they deployed the largest naval operation (on the shores of India) against the Muslims of Malabar




Question is how is the splitting of the moon relevant to your argument, it was meant as a miracle to the people of its time. Our beliefs as Muslims aren't contingent on whether the moon was split or not.

Where is the "scientific" proof that Islam holds so dear? Why does Islam say that semen is created in the backbone (as I recall - correct me if i'm wrong, it was something ridiculous like that), why is it that the elite have the power that you attribute to the media?

http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...tml#post565501 (Question about a verse from the Qur'an)

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
To quote IslamToday fatwâ committee: It is inconceivable that the true word of Allah could ever contradict scientific fact, since the universe is Allah's creation, and Allah fully knows what He created. A Muslim, when faced with what appears to be a contradiction between the Qur’ân and a scientific fact knows there can only be two possibilities: 1. That which is being construed as a scientific “fact” is not in actuality a fact. 2. The verse that is being construed as being in conflict with science is being misinterpreted, misapplied, or misunderstood. Any claim being made that there is a contradiction between science and the Qur’ân has to be evaluated individually. The factuality of the scientific claim needs to be assessed as well as the true meaning of the verse that is supposedly at variance with it. It is an inarguable fact that sperm is created in the testicles. Therefore, we must make sure we are understanding these verses correctly. We must look carefully at the verses to ascertain exactly what the Qur’ân is saying and – more importantly – what it is not saying. There are some serious problems with this translation and the assumptions made therein. To begin with, these verses say nothing whatsoever about the creation of sperm or the creation of anything else. Consequently, they do not inform us of where the creation of sperm takes place. They merely say that the substances under discussion come out form the places being described. The word being used is “yakhruj” meaning “to exit, leave, come out, emerge”. It in no way implies anything related to creation or origination. Secondly, the phrase “mâ’ dâfiq” (emitted fluid) is not restricted in meaning to sperm but is used in Arabic for both the sperm and the egg. Ibn Kathîr, in his commentary on this verse, writes: “It emanates from the man and the woman, and with Allah’s permission, the child comes forth as a product of both.” Thirdly, the words translated as “backbone” (sulb) and “ribs” (tarâ’ib) are not understood in Arabic to belong to the same person. Arabs understand the “sulb” to refer to a part of the male body and the “tarâ’ib” to a part of the female. Ibn Kathîr states: “It refers to the ‘sulb’ of the man and the ‘tarâ’ib’ of the woman, which is the area of her chest.” He then quotes this interpretation on the authority of the Prophet’s companion Ibn `Abbâs. This same understanding is given in all the major classical works of Qur’anic commentary. Moreover, the word “sulb” should not necessarily be translated as “backbone”. This word has many possible meanings and backbone is only one of them. It is also quite commonly used to mean the loins of a man. This is how it is used elsewhere in the Qur’ân. Allah says: “Prohibited to you (for marriage) are…wives of your sons proceeding from your loins (aslâb, the plural of sulb).” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 23] There can be no problem with sperm coming out from the area of a man's loins. Likewise, when we look at the word being translated as “ribs” (tarâ’ib, the plural of tarîbah) we find that it is used linguistically for the general are of the chest and the abdomen. In al-Qâmûs, the famous classical dictionary of al-Fayrûzabâdî it is defined as a number of things: “the bones of the chest or what comes after the two collarbones or what comes between the collarbones and the chest or the four ribs to the right of the chest or the four ribs to the left of the chest or the hands, eyes and feet or the collarbones.” Some Companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and some Successors had also provided many possible meanings, like the lower ribs and al-Dahhâk’s statement that it is the area between the breasts and feet and the eyes (a mere indication of centrality). This word clearly has a very broad and diverse definition. It is so ambiguous a word that the Companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) could not give it a precise definition. Scholars of Qur’ânic commentary have consistently admitted to there being at least three different possible meanings for this word as it is used in the verse. This is an admission that they do not know for certain what the tarâ’ib are, except that they generally agree it refers to an area of the woman’s body. It can apply to any region nearing the ribcage. Therefore, the area of the ovaries, the fallopian tubes, or the uterus can easily fit into the general area that is being indicated by these verses. What we are dealing with here is a gross error in translation and not a scientific error at all. This should answer your question. It should be noted that there are other explanations and interpretations of these verses that Muslim writers and scholars have proposed, of which we have quoted some here: http://www.islamicboard.com/152142-post6.html As for your studies on Islam, we highly encourage you make use of the excellent resources listed here: http://www.islamicboard.com/discover...resources.html (Studying Islam - List of Resources) If you have any further questions please do not hesitate to ask. Regards

It's questions like this that people start to throw quotes at me to decipher because they cannot be truly proven.

how is this relevant?

I could go up into a mountain, write a massive book, write tales of my believers following and reaping the benefits of my new religion, and make straw man scientific claims and act like it's the new word of god....

If it were as simple as your simpleton mind Islam wouldn't be the fastest growing religion and one for the most brilliant minds in their fields. In fact I think it would be a shame for someone like you to have a label of Muslim. For Islam it truly a thinking man's religion.

If you are aware of your environment, this is exactly what is happening with the "new age" movement today... They have manipulated the information on quantum physics and made it seem all scientific and viable when really, it's just using the law of attraction, which I believe only happens because you worked towards something you wanted.

Successive Muslim empires that have enchanted conquered and conqueror alike says different. Neither history, no science, nor exegesis nor common sense are on your side, the more you babble the more platitudes of the sophomoric sort you spew -- it is fortunate that I don't have enough time to waste on you because I could truly squish your pubertal ideology as I would a bug.

Whatever floats your boat.

Whatever floats yours.

Stay under control.

as opposed to what? for someone who is so free you seem to be spending an awful great deal of time on a religious forum?

They don't want you to wake up

Who are they?

. You have no power without God. You are nothing in this world. You'll get 70 virgins later...

How many w hores have you been through to speak of an eternal life of which you have positively no knowledge?

be good... not bad... God created the universe just to "test" you... I almost forgot, you can drink wine in heaven too...

is there a question somewhere in there?

My username is LostMan. But I am not "lost" in life. I know what I want, and I'm going to get it one way or another and I'm working diligently to get there.

Good for you new found man.

I "prayed" when I was young to help me be "normal", and fit in with the other kids... but nothing ever happened. You can say "ohhhh but it's a test" all you want. But the fact is, Islam has done nothing for me... It's made me wierd, caused me heartaches, and it's tough to deprogram yourself out of that fear based mentality.

I have no desire to tell you anything at all as a matter of fact I don't think anyone can lead anyone aright.. Abraham (p) would have done so with his father, Noah with his son, prophet Muhammad with his beloved uncle.. houda is something bestowed on the righteous, the one pure of heart:

18:17------[FONT=Verdana,Arial] He whom God guides, he alone has found the right way; whereas for him whom He lets go astray thou canst never find any protector who would point out the right way. -

My mother still has that type of thinking. She will always try to instil fear of Allah, yet I never ever saw tangible effects of praying, achieving "peace", or having my prayers answered...

What type of thinking, and what does this have to do with any of us? you've a very sheltered, extremely under-educated and very obtuse view of others, religion/philosophy and generally the universe around you. In fact I hope you've found peace by whatever means you've decided for yourself. Your experience is yours alone, stop baiting others and ingratiating yourself with some concocted sob story and ill defined questions and faulty premises to somehow feed into the attention you so crave.. let me tell you a good way to get fame and fortune in this world.. write an anti-Islamic book and hang with like minded individuals.. being amongst Muslims isn't going to cater to those needs that you desire fulfilled.


all the best[/FONT]

 

[lostman]

Don't know why the poster after you started the personal attacks. I'm not going to reply to that.

I guess it's harder to explain my thoughts on religion because I've studied control structures and persuasion and can see right through it. It IS made to control you and obey authority (good or bad).

"Authority" can come in many forms. But the worst is subliminally, and the psychological effects of it. You can see it allegorized in the media today...

Heck I'm pretty sure most of us have seen "Alladdin" right?

Why don't you try breaking words down and giving different meanings to things... for example... Allah + Dinn (jinn)....

And then:

what happens when he RUBS the LAMP? (yes... im talking dirty undertones). Lamp also has the definition of "light" as given to "god".

There is a GENIE that appears. Genie also has it's roots in GENE (creation, which = 3 wishes)...


I could go on and on with different examples of manipulation... but I feel that most people won't understand these kinds of psychological effects (because it seems minimal), but it adds up over many years from different sources.

I'm tired now, I'll be back later to finish this post... But if you're interested in how I come to these kinds of conclusions, look up Dr Phil Valentine.

Religion is about structuring a feeling to make you feel better about yourself. The heaven/hell or Push/pull tactics in the holy book is very transparent when you educate yourself on facts rather than following the herd and try to justify it by any means necessary.

 

[*charisma*]

Wow, are you serious??

Aladdin is not even pronounced that way in arabic. In arabic its 3ala' 2adeen.
3alaa'- the highest
adeen- of faith

nonArabs can't even pronounce that so it comes out as Aladdin, which sounds NOTHING like Allah and jinn, and what point are you trying to make if it's Allah + jinn? Allah is the creator of jinn sooo..?


And no duh, we're supposed to be obedient to our creater, that's why it's called ISLAM. We submit to him through whatever reason, there is really nothing subliminal about it. Athiests have come to Islam so whatever philisophical psychological arguments you're trying to spur up are completely useless honestly, people aren't muslim out of following "the herd" they're Muslims by individualistic choice. You should educate yourself about the facts and don't worry about us. It shouldn't kill you just because there are people there who enjoy their life being Muslims, it's really pathetic.

 

[Tyrion]

Don't feed the troll.

Everybody, think of the kittens before you post. Please.

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

Im not exactly sure what the point of this thread is. Are you asking genuine questions or coming here for a fight? Do you actually care to save your faith or are you just here to tell us what close minded people we are. We've had many people try do that here and we take no notice so no need to waste your energy because we will happily stay closed minded.

Here's why I quit.

Fear. Fear. Fear.

Not completely true. Even in your following sentence you practically state it isn’t the case...unless you think reward is a type of punishment.

If you do this, you'll get a reward. If you do that you'll get punished.

isn’t that how everything is life works? Go to school, study well enough get a good grade (reward), go to school, dont study well, get a bad grade (punishment).

The fact is, you muslims strive to be "perfect" in the eyes of god so they don't get "punished"... what kind of way to live is that?

1. God created us to worship so it only makes sense we get punished and rewarded for the right and wrong we do.
2. we also strive to be perfect so that we get rewarded.

Everything requires a time and place so to speak. Sometimes you will be in situations that will require you to strive for the reward. Other times you will be in a situation were you have to think of the fear..But i know you will take what you want from my post and ignore the reward part and only bother to take into consideration the punishment part.

Why should I fear Allah? In nature, the strongest animals survive, it's just a fact of life. You can tell me that I should be greatful for my blessings - and I am - but different people have different struggles and that's what makes life worth living.

im not following your point here. Are you suggesting we are animals?

Here's something I want you to think about...

- NO historical proof that the prophet even existed
- All "proof" is just OTHER related islamic books from his early followers (if he even existed)
- There is no historical, or scientific proof that the moon was ever split
- Muslims fight amongst, and are seperated by different belief systems within the SAME religion (shiah, sunni, milaade, jamate... WHATEVER MAN!)

Some thoughts: which way are you approaching your belief/lack thereof? You have mentioned science and history in your post which makes me think you deem these 2 topics as important to determine your belief in Islam or not. Correct me if im wrong.

So if my assumption is correct:
No one said that in Islam you need historical proofs, or that you need science to prove faith. Islam has never made these 2 a foundation for accepting or rejecting faith. You are judging something based on an assumption that has no basis to it. Do you therefore, think it is right to accept or reject something based on an assumption which no-one and nothing has deemed relevant to accepting or rejecting it. Does that truly make any sense to you?

Why disregard Islam for something that isn’t even required in order for you to belive in to begin with?

belief (any belief for that matter) requires something called’ faith’ and if you lack that (faith), then what’s it got to do with Islam? thats your own problem.

What the problem is with people like you , is that you dont understand the concept of faith. you dont realize what this term truly means and how the implementation of this concept will affect what you choose to reject or accept (whether it has something to do with a set of beliefs or otherwise).

Alot iof people fall into this problem where they believe that Islam has to have some type of scientific proof to it, but who said it does? Often people reject Islam based on their own (mis)understandings and assumptions despite the fact that such complications are not even needed or required to understand Islam.

their whole methodology of approaching Islam and trying to understand is incorrect, and therefore their results are also incorrect which leads them to easily rejecting it which is a shame because if only they approached things differently, then the result could also be very different.

Thats your problem...your yardstick to measure to measure the authentically of Islam is thought history and science, however as mentioned, no-one said that you need this to determine your faith.

Although science and history, etc can sometimes contain things which conform to Islam (notice how i say "[...] which conform to Islam" and not "which Islam conforms to them") it should not be used as a yardstick to determine whether we believe or not simply because the acceptance of Islam (or my other religion) is about having ‘faith’ and whether there is physical proof which is harmonies with it, then it doesn’t matter because it isn’t really all that relevant to begin with.

Even atheism requires some degree of faith.
--------
to further see how ludicrous the above approach is, Lets pretend that believing in Islam did indeed depend on historical and scientific facts. No one knows who wrote the history books, i.e no-one can trace their authenticity down. Thus, how do we know they are reliable ?

also the dependence on using History (or science) may be deemed as necessary in one day/age/time/place whilst in another day/age/time/place, it wont be. The plain fact that it maybe disregarded and seen as unnecessary in at some points in times and necessary in other points in time doesn’t really show that it is really a basis to determine the acceptance or rejection of something.

How does that make sense and how does that reflect on the authenticity on something. If anything, it shows loopholes.

That is the purity of Islam and the fact that it isn’t based on people’s opinions, is what has kept it pure and free of distortion and idiocy. Imagine if any odd Joe puts their opinion about Islam across. What a joke.

Btw “day and age” is just an example I’ve used.

Science as well will prove to be difficult to determine faith. Science changes and new discoveries are made all the time, negating/alerting old ones and bringing new ones into light. How can something of this nature be used to determine our belief...our belief which will make us enter heaven or hell. It just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

Im sorry, i just dont see How science and history which often changes be use to establish justice.

And control...

The world is changing fast. And it's because music, TV, media, consumerism and all that garbage that gets peddled for "life" out there...

But WHO owns these channels of control? The RICHEST people do... and if you do your due diligence and research control structures, you would know that 1% of the elite super rich have massive control over everything that you experience.

Does "allah" expect EVERYONE to know that they are being controlled? and manipulated by violence, sex, perverted thoughts (homosexuality, feminism, demasculinization) drugs, war, and all that stuff that leaves many people crippled in their own state of mind?

Doesn't it make sense that the same people who control this world could be controlling YOU through religion by keeping you stuck in a perpetual state of fear of god, fear of making mistakes, fear of missing your prayers, fear of this and that...?

No. Everyone has to conform to something at some point in their lives, does that mean and entail that they are being controlled? By me living in this land (non-Muslim) does that mean that since im a citizen and therefore have to abide by the law...well yes does that mean that the law controls me? And if for some reason i choose to break that law, should i not be fearful of the punishment i may receive from the law enforced? And i dont break that law, and therefore have no punishment to my name, does that mean im also controlled?

Why am i considered to be controlled when im only breaking the law. Why aren’t i considered to be controlled when i dont break the law and therefore live a good happy life??

It doesn’t make sense. just because something doesn’t go my way, i therefore should consider that this controlling? Dont you think that thats an over simplification...dont you think that the term controlling is abit out of context and not really all that relevant to your argument.

 

[جوري]

Don't feed the troll.

I don't get it either--same junk from the same cesspool frequented by all those 'free thinkers' whose two cells are held by a spirochete, refuted to a pulp, he later focuses on some axillary comment when in actuality he's not looking for any form of logical or scholarly discussion and yet people come here feeding him and anticipating his micturate and all too frequent dropping!

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

You are using the Quran to "prove" Allah, and you are using Allah to prove the Quran.

What else are we supposed to use? The problem isn't with what is being uses to prove what but YOUR LACK OF FAITH.

I will say this... I have studied persuasion for a very long time and I know that religion takes it to the very limit - IE. It uses every "trick" in the book.

I disagree with you because i have been in a similar position (completely unrelated though) from these types of experiences, i have come to realize that you take any one thing (any thing) and it can have several meanings to it depending if you have been taught that thing to be good (or bad) then that is what it’s going to be. sometimes the case is, is that one thing can have several interpretations on it, and it isn’t necessarily that thing that is bad itself but your (lack of) knowledge and other factors will impact the way you view that particular thing.

So in all honesty (and with due respect) i think you might be a bit over thinking and blowing things out of proportion. I know this because I’ve been there myself.

Coming from a position of power, promising an "end" result, TELLING you what to do, how to do it, and actually THANKING the "creator" of it for giving you all these rules to abide by.

And even if persuasion is used, so what? We are put on this earth to worship god, then in the end we will die and either go to heaven or hell. How else will we be motivated towards good if it weren’t for paradise and how else would we want to stay away from hell if it weren't for fear.

 

[lostman]

OK... I'm not trying to troll the forum.

I agree that my points can seem pretty unrelated. I've justified my thinking in more ways than I can possibly explain in a short time.

As for the persuasion comment. That's how cults form.... Usually the "smartest" type of people fall for them because there has to be a REASON for everything. IE. That's why there is a push/pull element of heaven vs hell.

Not going to go in depth into that, because persuasion has to be studied carefully over many years.

It just seems silly to me. You either see it from the inside where it doesn't sound crazy, or from the outside where it seems so far removed from reality.

I do believe in the soul, and an ultimate creator. Just not the way any religion sees it. (keeping tabs on insignificant people on a dot somewhere in the universe).

I had a very spiritual experience last year which lead me to study all these different schools of thought. I experienced what some might call "astral projection".

If you do some research you might think that it's satanic or haram. Those are typical replies to something that seems impossible... yet it is VERY possible. If you go back far enough in time you'll find the ancient cultures (BTW, I don't know why Islam claims to be ancient when it is AD) having knowledge that allowed their souls to leave their bodies and have a recollection of the experience after becoming aware in a physical state (the body).

Did anyone look up Dr Phil Valentines videos? He can articulate far better than me.

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

As for the persuasion comment. That's how cults form.... Usually the "smartest" type of people fall for them because there has to be a REASON for everything. IE. That's why there is a push/pull element of heaven vs hell.

this is ridiculous.

Not going to go in depth into that, because persuasion has to be studied carefully over many years.

why becuase you know its the truth? nice way to bail out.

You either see it from the inside where it doesn't sound crazy, or from the outside where it seems so far removed from reality.

or you see it from the inside where it doesn't sound crazy becuase your heart is truly guided.
or you see it form the outside where it seems so far removed from reality becuase you are paranoid and blowing things out of proportion and seem to live your life by theories (as opposed to reality).

the same way our beliefs are supposedly insane, then there is no reason why that cant be reciprocated onto you.

just becuase you have studied whatever you have studied it doesn't make your argument to disprove Islam any better.

besides your persuasion thoery makes no sense in the real world anyway. people with ill intentions don't follow through with their promise of reward. they like to (and indeed do) deceive. someone who truly has an evil intent doesn't care for those who follow them. they just care about their own good end. Allah does follow through with his reward.
eg we know that in this world those who give up something for the sake of Allah have been promised something better...and there are many stories from all sorts of people who can bear witness to that.

the only thing your persuasion thoery proves and hold true for, is probably Satan.

 

[lostman]

besides your persuasion thoery makes no sense in the real world anyway. people with ill intentions don't follow through with their promise of reward. they like to (and indeed do) deceive. someone who truly has an evil intent doesn't care for those who follow them. they just care about their own good end. Allah does follow through with his reward.

Yes it does. How much do you know about cults and persuasion? I could go in depth but that would take many pages of information which you won't read anyway. I have read accounts of super smart people get sucked into cults and do things that they wouldn't normally do.

Whether thats committing adultery, crime, suicide, it's all part of the same kind of influence.

You hold onto Islam dearly because it's your only support structure.

As I said, you are now using the promise of rewards to fuel a lifestyle that forces you live well within your comfort zone of Islam. I could guess, but I see how most women are in islamic households - no friends, most of the time no job, no humour, no confidence, etc.

Remember I said MOST. I am not judging you, so don't take that personal.

 

[Snowflake]

Any person who has denied the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam has disbelieved.



"...Allah guides whom He wills and misguides whom He wills.." Surah 14:4


Surah 18:29
Say: (It is) the truth from the Lord of you (all). Then whosoever will, let him believe, and whosoever will, let him disbelieve. Lo! We have prepared for disbelievers Fire. Its tent encloseth them. If they ask for showers, they will be showered with water like to molten lead which burneth the faces. Calamitous the drink and ill the resting-place!

Surah 2:26
Lo! Allah disdaineth not to coin the similitude even of a gnat. Those who believe know that it is the truth from their Lord; but those who disbelieve say: What doth Allah wish (to teach) by such a similitude ? He misleadeth many thereby, and He guideth many thereby; and He misleadeth thereby only miscreants;

Surah 22:4
Against him it is written down that whoever takes him (the devil) for a friend, he shall lead him astray and conduct him to the chastisement of the burning fire.

Surah 7:30
A party hath He led aright, while error hath just hold over (another) party, for lo! they choose the devils for protecting supporters instead of Allah and deem that they are rightly guided.

Surah 33:36
And it becometh not a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His messenger have decided an affair (for them), that they should (after that) claim any say in their affair; and whoso is rebellious to Allah and His messenger, he verily goeth astray in error manifest.

Surah 14:27
Allah confirmeth those who believe by a firm saying in the life of the world and in the Hereafter, and Allah sendeth wrong-doers astray. And Allah doeth what He will.

Surah 25:44
Or deemest thou that most of them hear or understand ? They are but as the cattle - nay, but they are farther astray ?

Surah 33:67
And they say: Our Lord! Lo! we obeyed our princes and great men, and they misled us from the Way.


Surah 73:19
Lo! This is a Reminder. Let him who will, then, choose a way unto his Lord.


Surah 25:57
Say: I ask of you no reward for this, save that whoso will may choose a way unto his Lord.


Surah 80:11-12
Nay, but verily it is an Admonishment, So let whosoever will pay heed to it


Surah 29:69
As for those who strive in Us, We surely guide them to Our paths, and lo! Allah is with the good



Surah 52:13-19

The day when they are thrust with a (disdainful) thrust, into the fire of hell (And it is said unto them): This is the Fire which ye were wont to deny. Is this magic, or do ye not see ? Endure the heat thereof, and whether ye are patient of it or impatient of it is all one for you. Ye are only being paid for what ye used to do. Lo! those who kept their duty dwell in gardens and delight, Happy because of what their Lord hath given them, and (because) their Lord hath warded off from them the torment of hell-fire. (And it is said unto them): Eat and drink in health (as a reward) for what ye used to do

1. Say (O Muhammad (SAW) to these Mushrikûn and Kâfirûn): "O Al-Kâfirûn (disbelievers in Allâh, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar)!
2. "I worship not that which you worship,
3. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.
4. "And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.
5. "Nor will you worship that which I worship.
6. "To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islâmic Monotheism)."

Surah 17:72 Whoso is blind here will be blind in the Hereafter, and yet further from the road.



O Allah keep me and the muslimeen rightly guided. Ameen

Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem
Al-hamdu lillahi Rabb il-'alamin
Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem
Maliki yawmi-d-Din
Iyya-ka na'budu wa iyya-ka nasta'in
Ihdina-sirat al-mustaqim
Sirat al-ladhina an'amta 'alai-him
Ghair il-Maghdubi 'alai-him wa la-d-dallin
In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds:
The Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful:
Owner of the Day of Judgement.
Thee (alone) we worship; Thee (alone) was ask for help.
Show us the straight path:
The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not (the path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.

Ameen



Subhan Allah wal hamdulillah wa la ilaha illAllah my Rabb, my Creator, my Guardian, Sustainer and Forgiver of sins. The King of the Universe. My life is for Him. My death is for Him. I love for His sake, and I hate for His sake. I worship none but Allah al Quddus - The Holy, The One who is pure from any imperfection and clear from children and adversaries. There is no power or might except with Allah.

 

[Woodrow]

Yes it does. How much do you know about cults and persuasion? I could go in depth but that would take many pages of information which you won't read anyway. I have read accounts of super smart people get sucked into cults and do things that they wouldn't normally do.

It is very difficult to escape or break free from a cult. Many people who claim to have broken free from one either never were in a cult or were enticed into joining an even more entrapping one.

You hold onto Islam dearly because it's your only support structure.

True, and why not hold onto something that is not going to fail you? Should a test pilot throw away his parachute because he knows it is the only thing that can save his life?

As I said, you are now using the promise of rewards to fuel a lifestyle that forces you live well within your comfort zone of Islam. I could guess, but I see how most women are in islamic households - no friends, most of the time no job, no humour, no confidence, etc.

And you are certain the Musilimahs on this forum live like that? If you ever saw my wife break an untrained horse or back down a store clerk who tried to cheat her I do not think you would see any lack of confidence. Before we were married 2 years ago she was driving alone on the back roads of South Dakota on almost daily 200+ miles for shopping and doctors appointments and had done so for over 20 years. I am too scared to ever tell her she has no confidence.

 

[tango92]

if you have doubts about the quran bring forth another surah somewhat similar to it. its that simple. nobody has done so yet. this is its greatest miracle (alongside others) and the people of mecca became muslim due to hearing these words. therefore the quran has convinced us and we have not convinced ourselves of the quran.

therefore if another surah was produced the faith of the muslims would collapse.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

One of your threads was already closed and the same is going to happen with this one as it is clear from your posts that you are not here to learn and that was clearly never your intention. You are only here to reject and your baseless arguments against Islam and religion are typical of one who's heart is filled with pride and arrogance that he will not listen nor accept no matter what is said to him.

"Who feared the Most Beneficent (Allah) in the Ghaib (unseen): (i.e. in this worldly life before seeing and meeting Him), and brought a heart turned in repentance (to Him - and absolutely free from each and every kind of polytheism), (Surat Qaf: 33).

"Verily, therein is indeed a reminder for him who has a heart or gives ear while he is heedful". (Surat Qaf: 37).

If only you knew what tranquility is felt in the hearts of the believers then you would do anything to gain such a feeling. It is never to late. Look into the Qur'an for yourself with an open heart and contemplate over the words. Just give it that chance and then you can make up your mind.

Only God can unseal the hearts so May Allah unseal yours. Ameen.