negative theodicy

[alcurad]

the problem of evil is a tool used by some atheists to deny the existence of god, how could a benevolent and all powerful god allow evil to exist and so on..
but this view could be seen as negative theodicy, it fully accepts god's benevolence, and then proceeds to deny his existence to save him from the problem of his allowing evil to exist.
this also implies that necessity-as opposed to free will- and chance-as opposed to purpose of creation/existence- are put in place of god, so there still remains a deity, only redefined.

your thoughts?

 

[alcurad]

bump

 

[Ali_Cena]

salaam Brother,
umm wiat until it is evening for people to comment. i think its a good explanation but, wait for others to comment,
salaam.
Peace

 

[Trumble]

your thoughts?

I don't really see how the problem of evil can be considered 'negative theodicy' when surely theodicy is itself a response to the problem of evil? It is, however, a reductio ad absurdum and to me a totally convincing one. I have yet to see a response I consider anything other than desperate although, obviously, a lot of people disagree!

 

[alcurad]

well it's negative because they claim to deny god's existence, or something to that affect.

 

[khaled]

the only think that deprive them from the truth is the disbelieve of the life here after.
Allah the almighty has send us to this world to test on the declaration we made in the haven with him. He wants to see us whether we follow him and his rasuls or the devil and the ‘nafs-ammara’. He shows us the both way , haven and hell and let the people freeness of will and actions for the time being. This is his will(amr)and this is the privilege for us to do good and evil……..

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

the problem of evil is a tool used by some atheists to deny the existence of god, how could a benevolent and all powerful god allow evil to exist and so on..
but this view could be seen as negative theodicy, it fully accepts god's benevolence, and then proceeds to deny his existence to save him from the problem of his allowing evil to exist.
this also implies that necessity-as opposed to free will- and chance-as opposed to purpose of creation/existence- are put in place of god, so there still remains a deity, only redefined.

your thoughts?

The problem of evil argument accepts god's benelovence for the sake of argument, and shows the contradictory situation that results if we take this attribute literally. That's almost the whole point of it!

Here is perhaps the earliest statement of the argument:

Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

I agree with Trumble that there has, as yet, been no satisfactory response to the problem of evil argument.

Peace

 

[alcurad]

it feels to me that believing in god is actually a position that is mainly dependent on faith, not necessarily Greek logic, let alone god being comprehensible, but anyway, I appreciate your & trumble's thoughts..

 

[glo]

Greetings,


The problem of evil argument accepts god's benelovence for the sake of argument, and shows the contradictory situation that results if we take this attribute literally. That's almost the whole point of it!

Here is perhaps the earliest statement of the argument:

Originally Posted by Epicurus
Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

I agree with Trumble that there has, as yet, been no satisfactory response to the problem of evil argument.

Peace

Thank you for the quote by Epicurus. (In which thread did he post it? )
I can't say that I can disagree with his thinking.

Do I see, hear or read things which make me think 'God, if I was omnipotent I would do something about this! Why don't you?'? - Yes, only every day!!

I have read and heard many human explanations for the existance of evil, but none that left me completely satisfied.

I guess it is part of my faith to trust and believe that God has reasons for and a purpose behind everything, and that everything will work out for good - even those things which in our human minds and understanding we cannot perceive to be good or imagine to lead to good eventually.

Another part of my faith is the concept that I can indeed do something about the problems in this world. I may not be omnipotent, but I can do little things all the time to make this world a better place, to bring peace and harmony, to meet the needs of others, etc, etc

 

[Snowflake]

You see to a people who don't believe in God, evil is a big problem because it consumes them. They don't believe in the here-after where no evil will exist. They see evil in this world and think they will die seeing evil and that's that. A believer however, knows evil will end on the Day of Judgement when all the evil people will go to Hell. And that day the people whom you see suffering at the hands of evil men and wonder why God didn't stop it, will be compensated and the reward will be bigger than what they had suffered. God can stop evil now if He wanted to. But He has set the laws of nature in motion and gave man free-will. And that's how it will remain until the Day. God doesn't do evil. Evil men do.


May Allah guide atheists to the true Path. Ameen.

 

[tetsujin]

You see to a people who don't believe in God, evil is a big problem because it consumes them.

imsad

They don't believe in the here-after where no evil will exist. They see evil in this world and think they will die seeing evil and that's that. A believer however, knows evil will end on the Day of Judgement when all the evil people will go to Hell. And that day the people whom you see suffering at the hands of evil men and wonder why God didn't stop it, will be compensated and the reward will be bigger than what they had suffered. God can stop evil now if He wanted to. But He has set the laws of nature in motion and gave man free-will. And that's how it will remain until the Day. God doesn't do evil. Evil men do.

What do you mean by evil? I don't think Epicurus was talking about uptight loan officers, or people who don't hold doors open for the next person.

May Allah guide atheists to the true Path. Ameen.

sum ameen


Sincerely,

Faysal

 

[alcurad]

but then, why is it that god is not beyond good & evil, these are our perceptions, changing ever so often, how is it then that God is held to such human standards?
how could there be good if there were no evil, the alternative would be nothing, a void.

 

[Trumble]

but then, why is it that god is beyond good & evil, these are our perceptions, changing ever so often, how is it then that God is held to such human standards?

Because they are the only standards we have. I would point out that most theists believe we have them because God gave them to us!

how could there be good if there were no evil, the alternative would be nothing, a void.

No. 'Good' and 'evil' are just labels, not entities. There is no requirement that any aspect of reality be either 'good' or 'evil', it's a false dichotomy. What really matters is what humans actually experience; my own religion puts it in terms of suffering and how that suffering can be eliminated. But you do not need to suffer to experience non-suffering any more than you need having your head chopped off to experience not having your head chopped off!

There is simply is no possible justification for the amount of suffering in the world should there be a benevolent, omnipotent God. That is why I believe no such entity exists.

 

[Azy]

Given the comments made I don't see why theodicy is even considered a problem.
If you're religious you (tend to) believe that evil is just one necessary part of an ultimately benevolent plan.
If you're not religious you (tend to) believe that evil is a human construct and therefore any god that might exist would not be labelled as such.

There's also still plenty of scope for a God who is malevolent, which would be a better explanation of what we see in my opinion.

 

[alcurad]

No. 'Good' and 'evil' are just labels, not entities. There is no requirement that any aspect of reality be either 'good' or 'evil', it's a false dichotomy.
...
There is simply is no possible justification for the amount of suffering in the world should there be a benevolent, omnipotent God. That is why I believe no such entity exists.

but then, didn't you contradict what you said in the second part,,
benevolent does not mean not one who allows suffering to occur, rather the world is much more complex than that.

how is it that omnipotence enters the equation? it must be that if you knew something bad were happening you would stop it, because that's the right thing to do:A human perspective, God is beyond such binarism, as you just stated.
God is not man glorified, this is perhaps why there is a 'problem' of 'evil', most of us don't like to get hurt, as simple as that.

as it were, in Islam God is not just benevolent, he has other attributes too, leaving these out and only focusing on benevolence & omnipotence is not valid.

 

[MuslimCONVERT]

This is one Atheist concern -the so-called problem of evil- that I never really understood fully what it was supposed to convince me of as a Muslim.

Islam is quite clear on evil... evil was knowingly willed and created by our Creator, and is allowed to function for a time... and this is all part of His Divine Will and plan and serves a purpose, some of which we can figure out as we go through life, some of which we can't figure out and it's purpose will be revealed to us in the next life.

Also, it is by practicing Islam with certainty that one can avoid most forms of evil and bare patiently through the remaining forms.

 

[aamirsaab]

Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.

He is indeed able to prevent evil. Epicurus and others of his ilk just don't see it or when people show them they call it some other crap. Or twist it to suit their own agenda (see any islamic misconception or hate site...not that I am encouraging that behaviour).

Is he able, but not willing? Then is he malevolent.

Unwilling? Lol, unless you KNOW God you cannot make that claim. So this one is out of the window too.

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

This guy assumes instant fixes to evil; ''oh look there's Hitler - he is pure evil. Why hasn't God killed him yet? I know why, because he doesn't exist!''

God works in mysterious ways: you either accept that or you don't.

There is simply is no possible justification for the amount of suffering in the world should there be a benevolent, omnipotent God. That is why I believe no such entity exists.

There is also a lot of good in the world. Surely THAT can be attributed to God? If not, why not?

Edit: why are we getting hung up about the existence of Evil? It clearly exists just as good clearly exists. You can take the perception argument for a while but I am sure you will all agree that the following bring only bad things to not only the individual but society:
* Alcohol (Result: self-harm, suicide)
* Gambling (bankruptcy, suicide)
* Adultery/fornication (high pregnancy rates, high abortion rates, the concept of a partner becomes meaningless and only satisfies the short term not long term, damaged goods, sociologically and psychologically damaging to individual and society)

And lo and behold, Islam (or rather God) warned us from those evils 1400 years ago! Yet so called modern civilisations are RIFE with them (in fact, they are considered SOCIAL NORMS!)? And there is a perception that religion is all hokus pokus/man-made nonsense? Rofl, keep telling yourself that.

 

[Trumble]

There is also a lot of good in the world. Surely THAT can be attributed to God? If not, why not?

I don't see your point. If you can attribute evil, you can attribute good. Is that supposed to be some attempt at presenting mitigating circumstances?

And lo and behold, Islam (or rather God) warned us from those evils 1400 years ago! Yet so called modern civilisations are RIFE with them (in fact, they are considered SOCIAL NORMS!)? And there is a perception that religion is all hokus pokus/man-made nonsense? Rofl, keep telling yourself that.

That is something of a strawman, I think.. nobody has denied that both the Abrahamic traditions and other major religions have presented formidable and laudable moral codes; indeed they are a primary influence on everybody's morality today, religious or not. But no God is required for such warnings, particularly when the ill effects are as obvious as you state. Man is enough.

 

[alcurad]

man is enough in abstract terms, not enough otherwise, since there is 'evil' yet.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I don't see your point. If you can attribute evil, you can attribute good. Is that supposed to be some attempt at presenting mitigating circumstances?



That is something of a strawman, I think.. nobody has denied that both the Abrahamic traditions and other major religions have presented formidable and laudable moral codes; indeed they are a primary influence on everybody's morality today, religious or not. But no God is required for such warnings, particularly when the ill effects are as obvious as you state. Man is enough.

Hmm... nawww.

I can honestly say that i would be a worse person had I not starting practicing Islam with Allah in mind.

Allah's ultimate justice keeps me from doing alot of really bad things. His ultimate mercy keeps me doing alot of good things too.

I thought to myself before and arrived at a conclusion. I'm glad that there is a god because if I'm just a hunk of vibrating atoms and am turning into dust soon, I'm wouldn't give a darn about anyone else and would be selfish and alot of other stuff.