negative theodicy

[aamirsaab]

I don't see your point. If you can attribute evil, you can attribute good. Is that supposed to be some attempt at presenting mitigating circumstances?

Just mentioning the other side of the coin .

....But no God is required for such warnings, particularly when the ill effects are as obvious as you state. Man is enough.

Man's word is enough to relay the warning. But without the fear of God, man's word is not enough for others to take heed.

Adultry, gambling and alcohol all grant a short term gain (to the individual) but the loss is incredibly vast in the long term and has repurcussions that affect both the individual AND society. So there is more to lose than to gain in any one of those actions. But, people in general still consider those actions to be social norms. By this I mean these actions are not just one-offs or mere blips that occur in certain social cliques - these occur widely because society has accepted them to be normal!

In stark contrast, everything in Islam is done for the long term and betterment of individual and society. Charity, being considerate, justice - all for the sake of God - benefit everyone. Not to say of course without God or religion those do not occur, simply that God is a considerable motivator.

So we have on the one hand without God/religion you get a short term individual gain (a buzz or immediate sense of satisfaction such as alcohol, gambling etc) and long term loss (immorality, death, depression - generally things that people holistically dislike).

Yet with God/religion, you also get a short term gain (a buzz or immediate satisfaction such as helping, charity, respectfulness) in addition to a long term gain (stronger society, moral code, ethics etc - things that people holistically appreciate!). So it's a 2 to 1 in favour of God/religion. And this is without the reward of paradise or other related stuff (to keep it grounded in our reality).

Basically, God is a great motivating factor. Greater than any man. To disregard that, especially in light of the 2 to 1 favouring, is just plain ignorance. Even if you wanted to be cynical about it and call all religions man-made (i.e God doesn't exist, religion is just another tool); the systems do work - better (despite being a lot OLDER) than modern systems, simply because of the motivating factor/driving force: God.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

He is indeed able to prevent evil.

But he chooses not to, for reasons best known to himself.

Unwilling? Lol, unless you KNOW God you cannot make that claim. So this one is out of the window too.

Just run that by me again - how exactly do you think you've dismissed this point? Epicurus wasn't claiming that god was unwilling to prevent evil - he was asking the question.

This guy assumes instant fixes to evil; ''oh look there's Hitler - he is pure evil. Why hasn't God killed him yet? I know why, because he doesn't exist!''

Or: why would a good god allow someone like Hitler to exist in the first place? Does god enjoy watching millions die needlessly?

God works in mysterious ways: you either accept that or you don't.

The only mystery is why people continue to believe in him. Saying "God works in mysterious ways" is just an easy way of avoiding any serious explanation of the logical absurdities that believing in god necessarily entails.

And there is a perception that religion is all hokus pokus/man-made nonsense? Rofl, keep telling yourself that.

It has always seemed overwhelmingly obvious to me that religion is man-made. I suppose it seems just as obvious to you that it's true.

Oh well - there we are. At least we don't feel the need to kill each other over it.

Peace

 

[aamirsaab]

Greetings,


But he chooses not to, for reasons best known to himself.

You cut me off . I said later that when He does, some people chose to negate it being an act of God.

Just run that by me again - how exactly do you think you've dismissed this point? Epicurus wasn't claiming that god was unwilling to prevent evil - he was asking the question.

My bad; I missinterpreted him.

Or: why would a good god allow someone like Hitler to exist in the first place? Does god enjoy watching millions die needlessly?

A test to mankind perhaps? Perhaps it was God allowing Hitler's freedom to act? Many possible reasons but what we should be asking is has humanity learnt from that?

The only mystery is why people continue to believe in him. Saying "God works in mysterious ways" is just an easy way of avoiding any serious explanation of the logical absurdities that believing in god necessarily entails.

Perhaps; but to those who believe in the existance of heaven and hell, jins and angels - God's mysterious way of working is certainly a more easier pill to swallow .

It has always seemed overwhelmingly obvious to me that religion is man-made. I suppose it seems just as obvious to you that it's true.

Don't want to get too much into this particular topic but there are many reasons as to why I subscribe to a particular religion. One of them is the focus on maintaining and sustaining a society through good actions from individuals. I accept the possibility that Islam may be man-made, however there are other reasons that lead me to believe it is not.

Oh well - there we are. At least we don't feel the need to kill each other over it.

That is the beauty of dialogue: we can achieve coexistance through peaceful means . And just to clarify any misconceptions: I'm perfectly fine with people following their own ideology or way of life (I have friends from most faiths, ethnicities etc).

And whilst I'm firm in my belief that I am on the right path, I cannot make absolute judgements about those who are not: everyone on this planet is a potential muslim (thus there is always a chance for them to follow Islam), but they will always be humans. In which case, they are brothers and sisters in Humanity - so, as a muslim and follower of Islam, it is my duty to extend my respect to them.

Peace

Back at ya .

 

[Trumble]

M Even if you wanted to be cynical about it and call all religions man-made (i.e God doesn't exist, religion is just another tool); the systems do work - better (despite being a lot OLDER) than modern systems, simply because of the motivating factor/driving force: God.

Absolutely. That's why, of course, many such systems were presented by their authors as having divine origin and enforcement.

 

[Forced_In]

Hello,
This is an interesting thread indeed.

But he chooses not to, for reasons best known to himself.

Of course ! He knows all.

Or: why would a good god allow someone like Hitler to exist in the first place?
Does god enjoy watching millions die needlessly?

Not needlessly; see below.

The only mystery is why people continue to believe in him. Saying "God works
in mysterious ways" is just an easy way of avoiding any serious explanation
of the logical absurdities that believing in god necessarily entails.

Not all He does is mysterious. In fact IMO majority of his doings can be
clearly reasoned.

It has always seemed overwhelmingly obvious to me that religion is
man-made. I suppose it seems just as obvious to you that it's true.

No, it is _not_ man-made !

Overall it seems to me that in your argument you assume our Lord exist, so
if you want to come this way you can obviously see what is his words on
this matter.

The so called ayatol korsi (the Throne verse) is of critical value in our deen;
if I remember correctly there are hadiths saying that this ayah is the basic of
our deen and every other ayah in the quran should be explained according to
this (see http://www.islamicinformationcentre.co.uk/alkursi.htm). I
assume sometimes the next two ayats are considered with it
so for the sake of completeness here is their translation:

255. Allah! There is no deity save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber
nor sleep overtaketh Him. Unto Him belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens
and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedeth with Him save by
His leave? He knoweth that which is in front of them and that which is behind
them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He will. His
throne includeth the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of
preserving them.He is the Sublime, the Tremendous.

256. There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth
distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah
hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

257. Allah is the Protecting Guardian of those who believe. He bringeth them
out of darkness into light. As for those who disbelieve, their patrons are false
deities. They bring them out of light into darkness. Such are rightful owners of
the Fire. They will abide therein.

[Al-Baqara 2:255-257]

From ayah 255 we infer that He can stop the evil in this world if he wants
but that is not the case. The ayah 256 puts it more into the light. Say; He
has created the world with some of its inhabitants having free will to do what
they can. For that He has created two directions for us. The right direction
and the wrong one (or any direction which is not the right way). The next
ayah says not only he has shown us the two direction but even he guides us
in whatever one that we choose!

Now that we know that this is all by his will, we may ask:

why this evil exist in the world then ? Well that is because evil as well as
goodness is the natural consequences of our free will.

Another one, is doing evil the same as doing good ? The answer is no,
according to our deen there is the other world and the judgment day that
people are punished/rewarded based on their doings in this world.

Yet another one, why creatures where created who have free will ?
maybe because :

105. And verily we have written in the Scripture, after the Reminder: My
righteous slaves will inherit the earth.
[Al-Anbiya 21:105]

So even in this world the righteous people will be the successors, at last.

HTH
peace.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Thanks for your interesting post aamirsaab. I don't want to go round in circles on this one, so I'll just comment on one of the things you said. I find the problem of evil to be one of several insurmountable obstacles standing in the way of me ever becoming a theist, whereas for you it does not appear to be a problem. I'm not sure there's much we can do to move beyond that.

Perhaps; but to those who believe in the existance of heaven and hell, jins and angels - God's mysterious way of working is certainly a more easier pill to swallow .

That is exactly my point. It's easier to believe and rationalise it in the way you suggest.

I could argue that my life would be easier if I had the firm belief that I was going to receive a million dollars in the post tomorrow morning, but that doesn't mean my belief would be justified!

Overall it seems to me that in your argument you assume our Lord exist, so
if you want to come this way you can obviously see what is his words on
this matter.

Yes: I assume god exists for the sake of argument, which is a necessary step towards showing the absurdities (in my view) that result from that belief.

Peace

 

[Forced_In]

Yes: I assume god exists for the sake of argument, which is a
necessary step towards showing the absurdities (in my view) that result from
that belief.

Hello,

Well I got what you mean in the first place that was why I posted that. Let
me say that I posted the islamic view on this; to make it short:

God can stop the evil in this word if he wants; But that is not the case. He
has created creatures with free will (i.e. they can do what they want good
or evil) so the evil as well as goodness is the natural outcome of this decision
and is upon the acts of those creatures. For more please read my previous
post.

Thanks.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

double post thingy.

 

[AntiKarateKid]

I'm not into arguing against atheism as much as I used to be. But here it goes:

One of the strongest reasons I have for belief is the fact that the components of the universe and indeed reality itself is here. But how? What created reality? What allowed these things to "be"?

It seems to me that to avoid infinite regression in the "what created X question" you need something metaphysical to break the chain.


So in effect I use "life before life" to prove "life after death" for me.

 

[alcurad]

czgibson, there is no evidence for either from a scientific standpoint, thus they are equally 'absurd'.
both are built on faith, that is; the belief that there is a creator/God, or that the universe exists/ed without him.
but I understand you're view, there are many absurdities people have taken up to be religion.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Well I got what you mean in the first place that was why I posted that. Let
me say that I posted the islamic view on this; to make it short:

Sorry I thought you'd misunderstood.

God can stop the evil in this word if he wants; But that is not the case. He
has created creatures with free will (i.e. they can do what they want good
or evil) so the evil as well as goodness is the natural outcome of this decision
and is upon the acts of those creatures. For more please read my previous
post.

OK - it's a familiar argument. I suppose we have to decide whether free will is really worth the amount of apparently pointless suffering that exists in the world.

Also, how does the free will defence affect our understanding of heaven? Is there evil in heaven? If not, then there can't be free will in heaven, in which case, why would anyone want to go there?

If the answer is that heaven exists on a level beyond all human conception, that is really just a paraphrase of the god moves in mysterious ways argument.

czgibson, there is no evidence for either from a scientific standpoint, thus they are equally 'absurd'.
both are built on faith, that is; the belief that there is a creator/God, or that the universe exists/ed without him.
but I understand you're view, there are many absurdities people have taken up to be religion.

The way I look at it, if there's no evidence for god (and clearly I don't believe there is), then the default position has to be that god remains undemonstrated, and the existence of the universe remains unexplained.

That the universe is absurd in many ways I would freely admit.

Peace

 

[alcurad]

free will is required for being tested in this world, afterwords there is no test, so no need for not eliminating suffering there.

although if you look a it, the universe is most probably deterministic at the most basic level, it wouldn't change anything either way for the argument of free will, free will and a detreministic universe go hand in hand following the Muslim way of looking at it.
ie' God allows us to perform the actions we want to perform, in essence he 'makes' us perform them, but according to our wishes. it could be we existed prior to the universe, the creator's knowledge encompasses all, we were/are part of that knowledge, with all that implies.

the question of the soul being the creator's, or of him deals with that.
man is not the creator, but he seeks to come loser to him, he can't completely, but attempts to through worship-any act of discovery of creation, be it through contemplation, prayer, or a lab experiment-.

 

[Forced_In]

OK - it's a familiar argument. I suppose we have to decide whether free will is
really worth the amount of apparently pointless suffering that exists in the
world.

Hello,

It would pass on anyway; For years seems to be too long in this world yet
they are actually just moments comparing to the other world.

Also, how does the free will defence affect our understanding of heaven? Is
there evil in heaven? If not, then there can't be free will in heaven, in which
case, why would anyone want to go there?

There are some differences :

In this world people live together namely guided and misguided, good and bad
while on the other world they are filtered; only those who who can cross hell
may reach heaven.

Also another reason conflicts arise is the limitations in this world. People want
to rich, live a long life, and basically be happy. Now it just can not be; thus
the annoyance, cruelty, and mistreatment towards others. On the other hand
heaven has no such limits for its inhabitants. Still it doesn't mean that true
moslems aim for such things primarily, rather their greatest joy would be to
meet their Lord (molaqu rabbehem).

If the answer is that heaven exists on a level beyond all human conception,
that is really just a paraphrase of the god moves in mysterious ways
argument.

To some extends we can get an idea, but then we are limited in this world,
and trying to imagine what is above our senses is ..., hmm impossible.

Goodbye.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings, Forced_In,

I'm afraid I can't see how any of what you've written in your last post is relevant to the points I've made.

Peace

 

[Forced_In]

Greetings, Forced_In,

I'm afraid I can't see how any of what you've written in your last post is
relevant to the points I've made.

Peace

Hello,

Sorry for it happens for me that I dont clearly say what I intend sometimes.
So let me say another way. What makes evil happen ? I assume there is
enviroment and creatures with free will which cause evil happen.

The environment causes evil happen; say like natural phenomenons which
causes death. These would not happen in heaven.

For creatures with free will; Suppose a greedy person who wants
everything that others have; can this person enter heaven ? No because this
person would want others properties in heaven but there is the place of
peace so such a person can not enter heaven in the first place. So basically
people who can not live peacefully on every situation have no place in
heaven.

So there remains a combination of free will and environment; consider
someone who is dying of hunger, (s)he steals something to eat and avoid
dying will this happen in heaven ? Well if the person is a righteous one there
is no need to do these wrong things because everybody's desires would be
full fitted i.e. there is no need to act evil out of force there.

In conclusion evil wont happen in heaven and its inhabitants do have free
will and wont do anything but good.

peace.