[Malaikah]

Does anyone know the position of non-practising Muslims in Islam? Are they considered to be apostates? Evidence from the Quran and Sunnah would be appreciated.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Non-practising Muslims


Depends what you mean by 'non-practicing'. Which practices don't they adhere to? And is it because they don't believe in them, they don't believe it is necessary to follow them, laziness, or some other reason?

 

[lolwatever]

Re: Non-practising Muslims

salamz cheese

depends to what degree.. can u giv examples? someone who doesnt pray is obviously different to someone who.. say for example has a bad mouth but does the 5 pillars... the former is a kafir while the latter is a sinner.

And even the latter can be broken down into categories.. people who do bad things knowing that they're wrong but don't do it due to a weakness in their iman without defying or denying Allah's orders, and those who know that the action is Haram but they think they have the power to set rules for themselves and challenge what Allah has to say... in which case the former is a sinner and the latter is a kafir (because they are literally disbelieving what Allah says etc).

the matter isn't as simple as branding people as Muslim or non Muslim.. the books of Aqidah delve into these matters in great depth.

salamz

edit: lol ansar posted the same time i did!

 

[Malaikah]

Re: Non-practising Muslims



Thanks for the replies. I am refering to Muslims, specifically the younger people, who were born in to Islam but never really practised, they dont pray regularily, fast etc, but they still call themselves Muslims.

Also, isnt there something along the lines of there is no belief after disbelief? So what about the youngsters who were born into Muslims families but didnt practsie at all until they are much older, such as in their 20's? Is that different to apostates returning to belief?

And i dont mean becuase they dont believe that it is true, but rather becuase of lack of education, laziness, just not caring and being in enviroments that do not stress practising.

 

[lolwatever]

Re: Non-practising Muslims

Thanks for the replies. I am refering to Muslims, specifically the younger people, who were born in to Islam but never really practised, they dont pray regularily, fast etc, but they still call themselves Muslims.

If they don't pray they are definately not Muslims, the hadith clearly says 'whoever doesnt pray is a Kafir'. Prayer is the discriminator between Muslims and non Muslims.

Also, isnt there something along the lines of there is no belief after disbelief? So what about the youngsters who ere born into Muslims families but didnt practsie at all until they are much older, such as in their 20's? Is that different to apostates returning to belief?

i think u meant 'no sin after disbelief', allahu a'3lam if they're considered apostates returning to Islam (lol i think i know the answer but im not sure how to explain it coz i forgot), but what's important is, they ought to return to their Islam and practice it properly because people aren't Muslims just because their parents are..

And i dont mean becuase they dont believe that it is true, but rather becuase of lack of education, laziness, just not caring and being in enviroments that do not stress practising.

If they are genuinely ignorant, for example a person in no man land who loves Allah and tries to worship him teh way he sees fit (even though its no where near the way Allah told us in the Quran), then definately Allah will reward him and he is a full Muslim. (Infact prophets like Ibrahim and Muhammad are a good example of that prior to recieving the message).

But if they're lazy, in the sense .. where if u tell them to go pray but they want to play football instead, then definatley that's outright Kufr and there's plenty of evidence in the quran and Sunnah to prove that.. if u want the breakdowns etc checkup Ibn Taymiyah or Abdul0wahhab's books of Aqidah they go down to the nitty gritty's..

As for the environment.. the end verses of Surat al-Ahzab describe people who are in corrupt environments, they too will be punished if they heard the message but decided to follow their friends and so forth, but if someone genuinely didn't hear anything about Allah's comamnds... then they are the people of A'3raf (i think its called that), and they're a special case on day of judgement..

 

[Malaikah]

Re: Non-practising Muslims



And if they start to practise later in life and repent for their acts of kufr that they used to do, can they be forgiven? Because i thought disbelief was the one sin that Allah swt doesnt forgive?

 

[north_malaysian]

Re: Non-practising Muslims

For me, whoever says "There is No God but Allah, Muhammad is messenger of Allah" is a Muslim. Which means he want to be called and recognized as a Muslim. Practicing or not, it's between him/her and God.

 

[lolwatever]

Re: Non-practising Muslims

yeh definately!

what is meant by 'disbelief isnt forgiven', i.e. if someone is a disbeliever and they die that way, they will never be forgiven.

whereas a sinner... as long as his sin is between himself and Allah (i.e. doesnt involve taking rights of other people, e.g. swearing) Allah may choose to forgive him without punishing him if he wills.

Even full on apostates (like someoen who says 'nope im not gonna b Muslim nemore', and then they repent) are forgiven... whether they will have the same status as somoene who was firm all the way through is a different matter...

these fellas who are lost when they're young and then they practice get alott of reward though, because they're not exactly like the "full on" apostate who comes in and out of Islam knowingly.

 

[lolwatever]

Re: Non-practising Muslims

For me, whoever says "There is No God but Allah, Muhammad is messenger of Allah" is a Muslim. Which means he want to be called and recognized as a Muslim. Practicing or not, it's between him/her and God.

Then why did the prophet say "the discriminator between us and them is prayer", and he said "whoever leaves prayer is a disbeliever", and how about the many verses revealed pounding the hypocrites who said 'there is no god but Allah etc' because of their other deeds...

there's more to Islam than words... otherwise Ibleed would enter Jannah!! lol after all he does believe that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his final messenger! (im serious)

 

[Malaikah]

Re: Non-practising Muslims

For me, whoever says "There is No God but Allah, Muhammad is messenger of Allah" is a Muslim. Which means he want to be called and recognized as a Muslim. Practicing or not, it's between him/her and God.

But thats not totally true. When the prophet (saw) passed away, and Abu bakr r.a. became the leader, some tribes refused to pay zakat to the state out of arrogance, they said they used to pay to prophet Muhammad (saw) because he was Allah swt messenger but out of their arrogance they saw Abu bakr r.a. not worthy of receiving their zakat payment. And those people were considered apostates, not becuase they rejected the shahadah, but simply becuase they refused to pay zakat.

 

[Malaikah]

Re: Non-practising Muslims

yeh definately!

what is meant by 'disbelief isnt forgiven', i.e. if someone is a disbeliever and they die that way, they will never be forgiven.

whereas a sinner... as long as his sin is between himself and Allah (i.e. doesnt involve taking rights of other people, e.g. swearing) Allah may choose to forgive him without punishing him if he wills.

Even full on apostates (like someoen who says 'nope im not gonna b Muslim nemore', and then they repent) are forgiven... whether they will have the same status as somoene who was firm all the way through is a different matter...

these fellas who are lost when they're young and then they practice get alott of reward though, because they're not exactly like the "full on" apostate who comes in and out of Islam knowingly.

thanks a lot. do you have any evidence for that? like hadiths or something?

 

[lolwatever]

Re: Non-practising Muslims

verse 68 to 71 is a good example of it..

also its pretty well known the ruling of the apostate... he's given 3 days to repent before he loses his head, and if he does he's a Muslim.. live example was Abu Bakr n how he dealt with them.

the ruling is, as long as someone repents before the 'ghar-gharah' (point where the soul is in the neck about to escape the body) his repentence is accepted no matter what the crime. (the repentence for being a disbeliever because u dont pray is to pray, and repentence for being a mushrik is to become a Muslim, repentence of swearing is to not swear etc etc..)

and ofcourse.. as logn as the sun doesnt rise from the other side.

salamz

ps: great reply 2 bro northern

 

[Malaikah]

Re: Non-practising Muslims

verse 68 to 71 is a good example of it..

lol which surah?

 

[lolwatever]

Re: Non-practising Muslims

woops lol furqan...
salams

 

[Malaikah]

Re: Non-practising Muslims

I got some info about it (Source)

Apostasy Apostasy is defined as a Muslim making a statement or performing an action that takes him out of the fold of Islam. The punishment prescribed for it in the Sunnah is execution, and it came as a remedy for a problem that existed at the time of the Prophet (peace be upon him). This problem was that a group of people would publicly enter into Islam together then leave Islam together in order to cause doubt and uncertainty in the hearts of the believers. The Qur’ân relates this event to us:

A group from the People of the Scripture said: ‘Believe in what came down upon those who believe at the beginning of the day, then disbelieve at the end of the day, so perhaps they might return from faith.

Thus, the prescribed punishment for apostasy was instituted so that apostasy could not be used as a means of causing doubt in Islam.

At the same time, the apostate is given time to repent, so if he has a misconception or is in doubt about something, then his cause of doubt can be removed and the truth clarified to him. He is encouraged to repent for three days.

 

[north_malaysian]

Re: Non-practising Muslims

Then why did the prophet say "the discriminator between us and them is prayer", and he said "whoever leaves prayer is a disbeliever", and how about the many verses revealed pounding the hypocrites who said 'there is no god but Allah etc' because of their other deeds...

there's more to Islam than words... otherwise Ibleed would enter Jannah!! lol after all he does believe that there is no god but Allah and Muhammad is his final messenger! (im serious)

Only God knows who prays and who not. Even if a fella pray a million times, it doesnt mean that Allah would accept his prayers (if he did it ignorantly or just to show off) - are they apostates in our eyes? We dont know. but Allah knows the best. So as we are weak creature of allah just can presume they're Muslims. Unless they went to church and pray to the cross etc.

 

[north_malaysian]

Re: Non-practising Muslims

But thats not totally true. When the prophet (saw) passed away, and Abu bakr r.a. became the leader, some tribes refused to pay zakat to the state out of arrogance, they said they used to pay to prophet Muhammad (saw) because he was Allah swt messenger but out of their arrogance they saw Abu bakr r.a. not worthy of receiving their zakat payment. And those people were considered apostates, not becuase they rejected the shahadah, but simply becuase they refused to pay zakat.

There is a difference between:

1) People who said they dont want to pay zakat because prophet Muhammad is dead.

2) People who dont pay zakat but still acknowledge that zakat is a pillar of Islam.

 

[lolwatever]

Re: Non-practising Muslims

Only God knows who prays and who not. Even if a fella pray a million times, it doesnt mean that Allah would accept his prayers (if he did it ignorantly or just to show off) - are they apostates in our eyes? We dont know. but Allah knows the best. So as we are weak creature of allah just can presume they're Muslims. Unless they went to church and pray to the cross etc.

Salams bro,

sorry if i wasnt clear... what i mean is, as long as they are acting like Muslims and doing everything that Muslim should or must do, and they don't show any clear signs of hypocrisy or apostasy (for example, mocking a Muslimah's hijab or a brothers beard or making fun of the quran or cussing the prophet etc etc) then it is not for us to enter their hearts, and we should treat them like Muslims and love them as we are suppose to.

What i am saying though, if someone's actions clearly contradict their words.. then that is a different case. like the example u gave worshipping the cross instead of Allah for example, or not praying etc etc...

take care
salamz

 

[lolwatever]

Re: Non-practising Muslims

There is a difference between:

1) People who said they dont want to pay zakat because prophet Muhammad is dead.

2) People who dont pay zakat but still acknowledge that zakat is a pillar of Islam.

um actually out of the two categories u mentioned, the former would be better than the latter, because the former made ijtihad and it was a sincere ijtihad for alot of them, but Abu Bakr didn't take a bar of it because it was directly against the correct understanding..

the latter are worse becasue they're not making ijtihad and they're just being lazy about it... they would be treated exactly the way the prophet treated the people of taif who got involved in usury, he layed seige on them for a pretty long time and they got punished for it pretty severely. They where fought as if they where non Muslims..

and we know that usury is not a pillar of Islam the way zakat is...

 

[north_malaysian]

Re: Non-practising Muslims

um actually out of the two categories u mentioned, the former would be better than the latter, because the former made ijtihad and it was a sincere ijtihad for alot of them, but Abu Bakr didn't take a bar of it because it was directly against the correct understanding..

the latter are worse becasue they're not making ijtihad and they're just being lazy about it... they would be treated exactly the way the prophet treated the people of taif who got involved in usury, he layed seige on them for a pretty long time and they got punished for it pretty severely. They where fought as if they where non Muslims..

and we know that usury is not a pillar of Islam the way zakat is...

But still for the second category, it's unfair for us to call them apostates isnt it?