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I post because...some might feel that treading in the scientific field should be left to scientists, the rest blindly accepting their theories... but what happens when non-scientists don't question?

this is from watson the other half of Francis Crick english biochemists who (in 1953) helped discover the helical structure of DNA (1916-2004)

DNA pioneer attacked over black intelligence claim

Claire Truscott
Thursday October 18, 2007
Guardian Unlimited
source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,2193899,00.html

The DNA pioneer James Watson came under fire today from a government minister and his own research laboratory, as they rushed to condemn his claim that black people are less intelligent than whites.

As the furore over his assertions intensified, senior representatives of Dr Watson's US research centre, Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory, sought to distance themselves from his claims.

He made the controversial comments in a Sunday Times interview, reportedly saying he was "inherently gloomy about the prospect of Africa" because "all our social policies are based on the fact that their intelligence is the same as ours - whereas all the testing says not really".

Article continues
Dr Watson was quoted as saying he hoped everyone was equal, but that "people who have to deal with black employees find this is not true".

The lab's trustees and its president, Bruce Stillman, said in a statement: "(These) are his own personal statements and in no way reflect the mission, goals, or principles of Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory's Board, administration or faculty.

"(We) vehemently disagree with these statements and are bewildered and saddened if he indeed made such comments.

"Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory does not engage in any research that could even form the basis of the statements attributed to Dr Watson."

Britain's most senior black MP and skills minister, David Lammy, said the 79-year-old's comments were "deeply offensive" and would "succeed only in providing oxygen for the BNP".

"It is a shame that a man with a record of scientific distinction should see his work overshadowed by his own irrational prejudices," he said.

"It is no surprise to me that the scientific community has condemned this outburst and I think people will recognise these comments for what they are."

Dr Watson was due to speak at London's Science Museum tomorrow, but directors called off the event last night after the comments were made public.

A spokesman said he had "gone beyond the point of acceptable debate".

The geneticist made his name as one half of science's most famous double act, when he and scientist Francis Crick cracked the code for DNA.

Dr Watson is in Britain to promote his latest book, Avoid Boring People: Lessons from a Life in Science, published this week.

He is still due to speak at five engagements, including events at the Oxford and Cambridge universities.

He is also booked in to speak at Bristol's Festival of Ideas, hosted by Bristol University's vice-chancellor, Eric Watson.

A spokesman for the university said it respected "freedom of speech and the right of people to express their views" but expected "robust questioning of Dr Watson on his ideas".

The newly-formed Equality and Human Rights Commission, which succeeded from the Commission for Racial Equality, said it was studying the comments "in full".

Dr Watson won the 1962 Nobel Prize in Medicine with Mr Crick for their role in discovering the structure of DNA, one of the most significant scientific events of the 20th century.

But he has since regularly courted controversy, reportedly saying that a woman should have the right to abort her child if tests were able to determine it would be homosexual.

He has also suggested a link between skin colour and sex drive, proposing that black people have higher libidos, and claimed that beauty could be genetically manufactured.

Dr Watson has said: "People say it would be terrible if we made all girls pretty. I think it would be great."

He was born in Chicago and studied in the USA and Denmark, before moving to Cambridge University, where he met Mr Crick as a student in 1951.
 
Dang. I posted this same story yesterday but had second thoughts and deleted the thread because I thought it might give rise to crazy fights 'n' stuff.

I urge everyone to keep their cool while discussing this subject.

To me, the comments have more than the faintest air of nonsense about them - it seems as if he's saying 'Well, not all black people are thick. Just most of them'. And this other stuff about genetically engineering out 'defects' in uborn children? I ain't gonna invoke Godwin's law, but someone probably will...
 
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Dang. I posted this same story yesterday but had second thoughts and deleted the thread because I thought it might give rise to crazy fights 'n' stuff.

I can't see why... I doubt there will be any disagreement between forum members, although no doubt many will be as angry as I was on hearing this story. You just don't expect such racist rubbish from such an eminent scientist.
 
I am glad you wrote that.. indeed sometimes people can't tell rubbish from non.. and that to me is quite unfortunate.. that was the reason behind my post...

peace!
 
I have been hanging around you brits too long -- now I use words like 'rubbish' what a joke...*shakes head in amusement*
 
I think it is completely ridiculous! The color of your skin has as much effect on your intelligence as it does on your soul. IF black people aren't as "smart" as whites it is due to circumstances NOT their color. If they were given the same opportunities as their white counter parts then they would be even. I can't speak for all places so I won't even try. I do know however in the area I live in that there are concentrated areas of black households. For generations they have lived in the same areas and they are considered to be the "poor" areas. These places have sub-standard schools and lack quality jobs. The school system has failed year after year to make a proper education available. That has to do with only one color. And here in the States, it is green!!!!!
 
I had read a nice story in NEJM I no longer have a subscription, so I can't find it but I am sure a thorough google search will turn up similar results..

It was of three troubled black youths, who had committed a crime, to get away from the police they hid in a confrence in some library... that day was life altering for them as they vowed to change their life style and become doctors.. two became doctors and one a dentist..now they go around telling their story to other black youths to inspire them...

Sure environment plays a factor on how well you turn out.. but also your expectations of yourself... Some people decide I had a crappy life and it is all I'll know... but I have seen people of all sorts of awful circumstance make it...

I have known a doctors who used to work rail road tracks of the grave yard shift... I know one doctor who when started a residency was living out in his car and used to shower in local gyms..relied totally on money he was making doing odds and ends by way of blue collar jobs and had exactly $6.72 in his pocket when he started.
I have known one girl with debilitating diseases who was so keen on making it, she actually failed out of pharmacy school but didn't give up and started all over again... people used to call her ugly, she has scoliosis that was never attended to plus a host of other diseases, her father was in jail and her mother off wellfare and through will and drive she made it.. she is a speech therapist and makes a great living.. When she wanted to be married people would laugh at her and she decided to join one of those 'dating sites' even then she was mocked, but she married an engineer has a couple of kids now and is very happy.... this all has to do with what you as an individual want for yourself.. not what people expect or think of you...

I believe no one should let anyone else dictate their potential or capabilities.. You only you can decide how far you want to go.. and everyone can go as far as they dare to dream!
 
I agree, but sadly most people don't have that kind of drive. If everyone one you know is out making big money selling crack on the corner then it is easier to believe you will be successful doing that then struggling going to school.
 
When I first read this story I thought maybe Watson was going senile (he did deny saying what he was quoted as saying later). I sort of wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt.

But apparently he's been harping on gene-determinism for a while now, and this isn't the first time he's asserted that genetic differences are somehow responsible for racial stereotypes.

This is why it's important to distinguish science from individual scientists. Watson's contribution to science—the discovery of DNA—was repeatedly tested by a community of colleagues. But his contribution to science pretty much ends there. Some of the things he has said, about the desirability of genetic testing and screening, are downright scary.

I think it's a shame that there is such a thing as a "celebrity scientist." Many of history's greatest scientists—Kepler, Newton—were also some of history's most unpleasant people.
 
for once I agree with you sir and since you've graced us with your presence.. refreshing for a change ( I am afraid my lack of objection would send some eating their words) it is a psychological issue for many at least as far as I am concerned *sighs*...

peace!
 
i think every race has what its good at or better at when compared to another racial group. some races are good in science others maybe art, some sports some phylosophy etc when it comes to intelligence, i dont know if one race is the smartest of all
 
to tell the truth, all humans are racist in their own ways, theres always going to be perceptions of racial superiority as long as man exists. people are going to feel superior to others due to racial status. i knw many people will be scared to admit this because the issue of race is a very sensitive one.
 
I heard this morning that the scientist in question has apologised for the offence he has caused ...

My first question to him would be how he measured 'intelligence'. To my knowledge intelligence tests are very often culturally biased and measure a whole range of things other than just intellect.

But, just out of interest, and a question to the 'scientists' on LI, do different races not have different attributes/strengths/weaknesses in biological terms??
Would a suggestion that one race was more intelligent/faster/stronger etc than another be so outrageous?

We would not perceive it to be politically correct, because as a society we value the concepts of equality and equal rights ... but what if there are biological differences which are genetically determined?

Peace
 
But, just out of interest, and a question to the 'scientists' on LI, do different races not have different attributes/strengths/weaknesses in biological terms??
Would a suggestion that one race was more intelligent/faster/stronger etc than another be so outrageous?

We would not perceive it to be politically correct, because as a society we value the concepts of equality and equal rights ... but what if there are biological differences which are genetically determined?

I actually have to agree with this... Different races are genetic predisposed to different disease or conditions. I don't see why we can calmly accept something like most Africans being lactose intolerant and can't therefore drink normal milk but can't accept something that indicates something like intelligence is determined by our genes and that some races have better genes in this respect than others.

I'm not saying that his research is correct, and obviously the way he presented his opinion was very rude and offensive. But if it turns out that intelligence does have a genetic bases, are we going to reject it just because it doesn't sound right?

Anyway, I had no idea Watson was still alive!
 
I actually have to agree with this... Different races are genetic predisposed to different disease or conditions. I don't see why we can calmly accept something like most Africans being lactose intolerant and can't therefore drink normal milk but can't accept something that indicates something like intelligence is determined by our genes and that some races have better genes in this respect than others.

I'm not saying that his research is correct, and obviously the way he presented his opinion was very rude and offensive. But if it turns out that intelligence does have a genetic bases, are we going to reject it just because it doesn't sound right?

Anyway, I had no idea Watson was still alive!
I wonder what race and color the black Ethiopians, Iraqis, Egyptians, Israelis, mexicans were, who were building pyramids and palaces when the white englanders were still swinging from trees in Sherwood and the like?
 
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I doubt he literally meant that black skin in and of it self makes a person less intelligent.
 
Intelligence alone doesn't guarantee success in life. There are many cases where intelligent people screw up big time.

Am I the only one to think that these scientists waste their research grant money to study things which will never benefit humankind as a whole. How many times must be repeated that people in third world countries are starving!! Hello??? Anyone listening??

Stupid scientists. I think research must be done on the intelligence of these scientists. We must discover the correlation between abject stupidity and conducting useless experiments.
 
Hmm..jus to finish off what he said..(sorry, it wasn't mentioned in your source)
Scientific endeavour

And in comments published in The Independent newspaper on Friday, Dr Watson tries to clarify his position.

"We do not yet adequately understand the way in which the different environments in the world have selected over time the genes which determine our capacity to do different things," he is quoted as saying. "The overwhelming desire of society today is to assume that equal powers of reason are a universal heritage of humanity.

"It may well be. But simply wanting this to be the case is not enough. This is not science. To question this is not to give in to racism. This is not a discussion about superiority or inferiority, it is about seeking to understand differences, about why some of us are great musicians and others great engineers."

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7052416.stm)
 
Some people are gifted... the rest just have to work really hard! if you run Statistics on intelligence quotient you'll find that a certain percentage of the population falls on +/_ 2 of the confidence interval then there are those very high and very low on the spectrum and that is always indiscriminate to race, color, size shape or even sex....

and sure diseases affect some folks in different ways.. fragile x, downs syndrome and fetal alcohol syndrome which are the leading reasons for mental retardation are also indiscriminate amongst races, religions, sexes, etc...
was the man justified in his testament? NO! he is just banking on his name to peddle BS... sometimes you just have to sit there and tell someone.. won't you please cut the crap! our understanding of molecular biology isn't less intense than his now with all our books and resources.. he didn't call 'dibs' on understanding...
:w: