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Ibn Abi Ahmed

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JERUSALEM — In Israel's ultra-Orthodox Jewish community, where the rule of law sometimes takes a back seat to the rule of God, zealots are on a campaign to stamp out behavior they consider unchaste.

They hurl stones at women for such "sins" as wearing a red blouse and attack stores selling devices that can access the Internet.

In recent weeks, self-styled "modesty patrols" have been accused of breaking into the apartment of a Jerusalem woman and beating her for allegedly consorting with men. They have torched a store that sells MP4 players, fearing devout Jews would use them to download pornography.

"These breaches of purity and modesty endanger our community,"
said 38-year-old Elchanan Blau, defending the bearded, black-robed zealots. "If it takes fire to get them to stop, then so be it."

Many ultra-Orthodox Jews are dismayed by the violence, but the enforcers often enjoy quiet approval from rabbis eager to protect their own reputations as guardians of the faith, community members say. And while some welcome anything that keeps secular culture out of their cloistered world, others feel terrorized, knowing that the mere perception of impropriety could ruin their lives.

"There are eyes and ears all over the place, very similar to what you hear about in countries like Iran," says Israeli-American novelist Naomi Ragen, an observant Jew who has chronicled the troubles that confront some women living in the ultra-Orthodox world.

The violence has already deepened the antagonism between the 600,000 haredim, or God-fearing, and the secular majority, which resents having religious rules dictated to them.

Religious vigilantes operate in a society that has granted their community influence well beyond its numbers — partly out of a commitment to revive the great centers of Jewish scholarship destroyed in the Holocaust, but also because the Orthodox are perennial king-makers in Israeli coalition politics.

Thus public transport is grounded for the Jewish Sabbath each Saturday, and the rabbis control all Jewish marriage and divorce in Israel.

In recent years, however, the haredim have eased up on their long campaign to impose their rules on secular areas, and nowadays many restaurants and suburban shopping centers are open on the Sabbath.

These days, most vigilante attacks take place in the zealots' own neighborhoods.

Israel police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said the modesty police are not an organized phenomenon, just rogue enforcers carrying out isolated attacks. But Israel's Justice Ministry used the term "modesty patrols" in an indictment against a man accused of assaulting the Jerusalem woman.

The unidentified, 31-year-old woman had left the ultra-Orthodox fold after getting divorced, according to the indictment filed by the Jerusalem district attorney's office. The indictment said her assailant tried to get her to leave her apartment in a haredi neighborhood in Jerusalem by gagging, beating and threatening to kill her. He was paid $2,000 for the attack, it said.

A 17-year-old who moved to Israel from New York five years ago said she was hospitalized after being attacked with pepper spray by a crowd of men outraged that she was walking down a Jerusalem street with boys.

"They can burn in hell," said the girl, who would identify herself only as Rivka.

She lives in Beit Shemesh, a town outside Jerusalem where the vigilantism has been particularly violent. Zealots there have thrown rocks and spat at women, and set fire to trash bins to protest impiety. Walls of the neighborhood are plastered with signs exhorting women to dress modestly — spelled out as closed-necked, long-sleeved blouses and long skirts.

Source (surprisingly enough): http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,432876,00.html

Where's the outrage against these "Jewish Taliban"? Where's the outrage for this "oppression" against the women in Israel because of "modesty standards"? :rollseyes
 
But You also support similar "modesty patrols" from Saudi Arabia through Pakistan to Malaysia, so whats Your point?
 
But You also support similar "modesty patrols" from Saudi Arabia through Pakistan to Malaysia, so whats Your point?

Assumptions :rollseyes

Either way, I see women's rights being violated there, yet I don't see the world organizations coming together to stop "Jewish oppression against women", as they did with "Islamic oppression against women". It reeks of hypocrisy.

If you still don't see the point, it's ok, I never expected you to see it anyway.
 
Assumptions :rollseyes

Either way, I see women's rights being violated there, yet I don't see the world organizations coming together to stop "Jewish oppression against women", as they did with "Islamic oppression against women". It reeks of hypocrisy.

If you still don't see the point, it's ok, I never expected you to see it anyway.

Its about western double standards, of course I see it here .
But You are not the right person to point out our double standards if You never made a thread about "women's rights violated by muslim modesty patrols". :?
 
Why is he not the right person to point it out?
 
Why is he not the right person to point it out?

Because he thinks that modesty patrols are ok. Just not in Israel. Or maybe Im wrong.
Anyway, I agree with him that there should be some event made about this situation, as he is right that there are voices condemning similar
"morality squads " in muslim world.
It shows that Israel is slowly going in the direction of religious orthodoxy and intolerance. It is interesting which two powers will winn the struggle, the secularists or orthodox.
 
Either way, I see women's rights being violated there, yet I don't see the world organizations coming together to stop "Jewish oppression against women", as they did with "Islamic oppression against women". It reeks of hypocrisy.

Not really. The state of Israel doesnt condone this and the so called modesty patrols who resort to violence are treated as criminals. What exactly is there to criticise based on this article when apparently Israel is trying to catch those who have assaulted these women? Show me "world organizations" criticising islamic/muslim country where the state guarantees equal rights to women aswell as possibility to dress/meet/talk to/have sex with however/whomever/whenever they want while trying to jail those who violently attack the women.

The "nuttiness" of hardline religious jews is something that is semi regularly reported in here, I can think of several cases most relating to their unwillingness to compromise in the peace process and fighting against emptying of settlements etc. tho their moral insanity garbage and even attacking others isnt exactly new for me either.
 
Anyway, I agree with him that there should be some event made about this situation, as he is right that there are voices condemning similar "morality squads " in muslim world.

Problem is these morality squads arent supported/tolerated by the state of Israel. Now I could be wrong, but the criticism that I remember towards some muslim countries comes from the fact that this kind of groups/ideas are there supported/tolerated by the goverment. Like example the lashing of the rape victim in Saudi Arabia was actually a punishment by goverment because she was in a car with non-married man.
 
**Rolls eyes further than someone having an Occular Gyrocrisis.**

According to such people God appears to have some severe problems with normal human relationships.
Never wondering why God, who appeared so active in their book, dosnt step in and defend our eyes from such obcenity as an exposed ankle himself.
Yet another example of misogenistic sexist patriarchal dictatorial sexually repressed old men inflicting physical harm on innocent people. Time it was banned.
 
Because he thinks that modesty patrols are ok. Just not in Israel. Or maybe Im wrong.

where in his post does he condone modesty patrol? I must have missed it?

Anyway, I agree with him that there should be some event made about this situation, as he is right that there are voices condemning similar
"morality squads " in muslim world.
I think the 'morality squad' is condemned as nauseam.. perhaps it is time for folks to look into their own backyard before pointing the finger?
at least that is what I got out of the thread!

It shows that Israel is slowly going in the direction of religious orthodoxy and intolerance. It is interesting which two powers will winn the struggle, the secularists or orthodox.

Isn't that the whole point of a 'Jewish state' why did you think they imposed their colonial settler state were it not to impose 'orthodoxy' and await their 'Moschaich'?
 
Not really. The state of Israel doesnt condone this and the so called modesty patrols who resort to violence are treated as criminals. What exactly is there to criticise based on this article when apparently Israel is trying to catch those who have assaulted these women? Show me "world organizations" criticising islamic/muslim country where the state guarantees equal rights to women aswell as possibility to dress/meet/talk to/have sex with however/whomever/whenever they want while trying to jail those who violently attack the women.

The "nuttiness" of hardline religious jews is something that is semi regularly reported in here, I can think of several cases most relating to their unwillingness to compromise in the peace process and fighting against emptying of settlements etc. tho their moral insanity garbage and even attacking others isnt exactly new for me either.

I have always enjoyed your form of savoir faire.. Are you the spokes person for Israel? Have you been there?

I am a Muslim woman, have lived in so-called Muslim countries including Saudi Arabia, and here to tell you, don't speak on my behalf and don't feign to know what it is like to live in those places.. you want to shake your all knowing head, do it with like minds, with pseudo intellect parrots who will agree with you!

cheers
 
where in his post does he condone modesty patrol? I must have missed it?

Thats why I said - "maybe Im wrong". I know that there are such squads even in Malaysia, but I back my words if I was wrong about Abu Sayyad.
I think the 'morality squad' is condemned as nauseam.. perhaps it is time for folks to look into their own backyard before pointing the finger?
at least that is what I got out of the thread!

I was always thinking that majority of muslims support morality police. But again - "I might be wrong".

Isn't that the whole point of a 'Jewish state' why did you think they imposed their colonial settler state were it not to impose 'orthodoxy' and await their 'Moschaich'?

Maybe You are right Skye, only jewish leaders can really know. But still its interesting what future brings as still there are millions of non practicing jews in Israel.
 
Suomi is saying that in Israel the religious Jews who do this are criminals and are charged and punished.

He compares it to Iran, KSA and Talibani Afganistan where such people are acting on behalf of the state and as part of the law.
 
Thats why I said - "maybe Im wrong". I know that there are such squads even in Malaysia, but I back my words if I was wrong about Abu Sayyad.
'Morality squad' has no basis in Islamic Jurisprudence, there is no compulsion in religion!

I was always thinking that majority of muslims support morality police. But again - "I might be wrong".

Says who? some sort of formal study?


Maybe You are right Skye, only jewish leaders can really know. But still its interesting what future brings as still there are millions of non practicing jews in Israel.

Isn't it a shame, that they should assemble away from their actual homelands, whether Iraqis, German, or Ethiopian Jews, only to uphold a state of debauchery rather than the 'moral' one mandated by their God, in their so-called holy land?

cheers
 
Suomi is saying that in Israel the religious Jews who do this are criminals and are charged and punished.

He compares it to Iran, KSA and Talibani Afganistan where such people are acting on behalf of the state and as part of the law.

Suomi, knows this because? I mean what are his qualifications? he is the Israeli expert?--or just his opinion which somehow we should hold in high regard, because he has shown such great aptitude?

cheers
 
He has to be an expert on israel? Perhaps he is? Perhaps he's not. Perhaps he read a few articals on trials of orthodox jewish modesty criminals?

http://jonathanturley.org/2008/09/1...jewish-vigilantes-terrorize-israeli-citizens/

Now all we need is a comparitive piece showing that Iran KSA and the Taliban are arresting and charging their own Ministry of Vice and Virtue employees who authorised by that same state, beat the snot out of ankle-showers.

Good luck in finding one.
 
He has to be an expert on israel? Perhaps he is? Perhaps he's not. Perhaps he read a few articals on trials of orthodox jewish modesty criminals?

Having an opinion or browsing through the web doesn't make scholars out of monkeys!

a little blog, that starts with (taking the lead from Muslims) is already a turn off.

Now all we need is a comparitive piece showing that Iran KSA and the Taliban are arresting and charging their own Ministry of Vice and Virtue employees who authorised by that same state, beat the snot out of ankle-showers.

Good luck in finding one.

It would be interesting indeed, given the disparity of what is written by western media w h o r e s and what actually occurs -- I direct your attention of course to a recent article posted by a Moron here, alleging a woman is under threat of arrest for exposing her face, when I have shown you two pictures of foreign women in KSA without a veil all together in broad day light posing for pictures ..

cheers
 
Calling someone a monkey because, in your opinion, they are not qualified to talk about Israeli law? A small blog is what i linked, there are hundreds of links to prove that Israel is treating the criminals as criminals. Are you saying that they are not doing this? If so then it ranks right up there with your beleif about US tanks sold to KSA with self destruct buttons held by the americans.(always makes me giggle that one)
Are you also saying that KSA and Iran and the Taliban arresst their own ministry employees for their actions? That these Ministrys dont exist because they dont fit with your idea of what a muslim nation actually does?

Post a link and prove it. i aw8 with baited breff.

We discussed KSA a while back. You were there as a small girl. Things change. All areas are not the same.
The western media must be dressing people up in arab clothing in fake arab cities beating up women and vidioing the whole thing to disparage Islam.

Of course.
 
Suomi, knows this because? I mean what are his qualifications? he is the Israeli expert?--or just his opinion which somehow we should hold in high regard, because he has shown such great aptitude?

cheers

No more than anyone elses. Im bit puzzled I must admit because I dont really understand why and where do you get such idea that my opinion and posts should be regarded any differently than those of others.

Im no Israeli expert, Im just forming my opinion based on what I read, which isnt that much. Abu Sayyad was proclaiming hypocricy because this isnt condemned as "Israeli Taleban" while I believe he ignored/missed the reasons why "world organisations" dont criticise Israel.

Thats really all there is to it. Thats my opinion, if its wrong, then so be it, Im always willing to hear why.