Prophets, Sins and Lies

[Nicola]

From this statement I understand the Jesus A.S is in fact a human who never sinned and not a god?Also the Prophet P.b.u.h never sinned

Jesus was half human(flesh) was able to sin but didn't He was also half divine..He was only fully divine when he ascending back to the Father.
Yes that is a fact Jesus never sinned from the time he was born..If Jesus had of He would have been blemished and not able to offer himself has a scarifice for us...God will only ever accept purity..Like in the OT blood scarifices had to be offered from unblemished animals..only else God didn't accept them.

Mohammed was born of flesh and also sinned

"Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him [Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf]?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it," (Hadith Vol. 5, Book 59, #369).
Answer 14625

The Quran says, "Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies." Surah 40:28. In the Hadith, Mohammed was also quoted as saying, "Be honest because honesty leads to goodness, and goodness leads to Paradise. Beware of falsehood because it leads to immorality, and immorality leads to Hell."

This point is proven by many incidences in the life of Mohammed. He often lied and instructed his followers to do the same. He rationalized that the prospect of success in missions to extend Islam's influence overrode Allah's initial prohibitions against lying.

I've taken this above text from another poster...I would like to know in fact what it says in the Quran I've read plenty of scriptures that tell Muslims God does not accept lying it is wrong..and sinful.

But Mohammed allowed it.
I do not believe for one second the God of Truth would give permission for us to lie or murder. There is no deceit in God.

Exodus 20:13 thou shall not Murder

Deu 5:20 And you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

Just in that Scripture alone Mohammed broke two of Gods commandments.
He allowed someone to be lied about and he also gave permission to have a man murdered.

That is according to Gods law for all mankind, how he wants us to behave to one another.

 

[- Qatada -]

Re: Do jewish believe in Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)

Hey Nicola.


First of all, our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) never sinned at all.


Whenever Allah's Apostle ordered the Muslims to do something, he used to order them deeds which were easy for them to do, (according to their strength endurance). They said, "O Allah's Apostle! We are not like you. Allah has forgiven your past and future sins."

[sahih bukhari - volume 1 book 2 number 19]


In islam, prophets do not commit sins anyway, so i don't understand where you got that idea from?

Jesus was half human(flesh) was able to sin but didn't He was also half divine..He was only fully divine when he ascending back to the Father.
Yes that is a fact Jesus never sinned from the time he was born..If Jesus had of He would have been blemished and not able to offer himself has a scarifice for us...God will only ever accept purity..Like in the OT blood scarifices had to be offered from unblemished animals..only else God didn't accept them.

We believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) was sinless (because he was a prophet - and like i mentioned earlier, prophets don't have any sin.)

I don't understand how he was only half flesh, is that because he was born without a father?

Mohammed was born of flesh and also sinned

Please can i have some evidence for that? To prove from the islamic law that he (peace be upon him) commited a sin? And i still don't understand the concept of full flesh and half flesh, sorry.

"Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him [Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf]?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it," (Hadith Vol. 5, Book 59, #369).
Answer 14625

I think you need to realise the whole story to find out what this hadith is actually about.

Ka'b bin Ashraf was a man who was causing corruption and propaganda between the pagan arabs, and the jewish people from Medina about the muslims. He would lie about the muslims, and use his poetry (which was the most powerful media at that time) to make people go against the muslims, he even went to the extent of saying rude things about the wives of the companions of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him.)


This was going way too far, and in islam - it is permissible to defend yourself if people are attacking you (whether its through physical means, financial, social etc.) So instead of just letting him get away with it, our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) ordered that he should be assasinated [Yes it is permissible in islam if the person is attacking you] before Ka'b went any further in his attacks.


The following conversation took place between our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his companion;

"Muhammad bin Maslama [the one who would assasinate Ka'b] got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him [Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf]?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it,"



And like we've mentioned before in an earlier hadith;


"Lying is wrong, except in three things: ...a lie in war, for war is deception;

Transmitted by Ahmad and Tirmidhi.
Al-Tirmidhi Hadith 5033


Can you imagine a war without deception? Do you think if two armies are at war, do you think telling your enemy the truth is going to make you victorious?

This is the reason why it is permissible to lie in cases such as war, without it - you're going to lose easily.


There have been many cases in the bible where war has been mentioned so much times.

Most people think that islam is a religion full of violence, but one tool thats been used throughout history in battles is the sword. The word 'sword' hasn't been used once in the Qur'an, but in the bible - its been mentioned 434 times.

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/1797-sword-christ.html?highlight=sword


So islam isn't the only faith that allows to kill, if the enemy attacks you. Its your right to defend yourself, and that is exactly what islam allows.

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for Allah does not love transgressors. (Qur'an 2:190)

Exodus 20:13 thou shall not Murder

Isn't that contradicting what it says in Matthew:

“Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a SWORD. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me” (Matthew 10:34-37).


I hope you understand what i mean, and please don't feel that i'm trying to attack your faith - but i'm just trying to make it clear that nearly all faiths allow self defence, and so does christianity, even if it means defending yourself with the sword.


Peace.

 

[HeiGou]

Re: Do jewish believe in Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)

First of all, our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) never sinned at all.

Whenever Allah's Apostle ordered the Muslims to do something, he used to order them deeds which were easy for them to do, (according to their strength endurance). They said, "O Allah's Apostle! We are not like you. Allah has forgiven your past and future sins."

[sahih bukhari - volume 1 book 2 number 19]

That strikes me as odd. I don't mean to offend, but wouldn't that suggest that Muhammed did sin? I mean if Allah has forgiven him his past and future sins, wouldn't that suggest that he had some sins that needed forgiving? Why not say "We are not like you, we sin"?

Could you explain that to me a little?

 

[- Qatada -]

Re: Do jewish believe in Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)

God showed himself to the Jewish people first with Abraham, he called Abraham out from everyone else. He promised Abraham the promised land, which is Gods land Israel. God will never go back on a promise even though man breaks his everyday with him. The Jewish people where choosen out for a reason...so other people us (gentiles) would see their behaviour in worshipping one God, other people would see how they obeyed Gods commandents..and would follow. Some tribes did, some didn't and the Jews themselves rebelled against God many times..and where punished for it..but because of Gods promises...
These all 12 tribes of Irael will return back home at the endtimes...this is already happening.




Only Muslims believe this not Jews and not Christians. God choose the Jews to be an example to mankind that is why he gave them the Commandents. This is what God requires from us.




God sent us the Holy Spirit the Spirit of truth...after Jesus ascending back to the Father. Jesus was never talking about a person..people die the Holy Spirit cannot. The Holy Spirit is working in our lives today all over the world.
I would like to see the passage of Scripture you are referring to concerning a different people and better race.





Well you don't have to believe the Bible to see that this process is already happening..and God won't let anyone distroy Israel.He is going to call nations to battle against Israel but that is to punish them
It is His land and He gives it to who He wants.

Ye People of the Book (i.e. christians and jews)! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law and the Gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding?

Behold! you are they who disputed about that of which you had knowledge; why then do you dispute about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows while you do not know.

Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.

Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham, are those who follow him, as are also this Prophet and those who believe: And Allah is the Protector of those who have faith.

(Qur'an 3: 65 - 68)

 

[- Qatada -]

Re: Do jewish believe in Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)

That strikes me as odd. I don't mean to offend, but wouldn't that suggest that Muhammed did sin? I mean if Allah has forgiven him his past and future sins, wouldn't that suggest that he had some sins that needed forgiving? Why not say "We are not like you, we sin"?

Could you explain that to me a little?

Hey.


This fatwa refers to all the prophets insha'Allaah.

Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the World; and blessings and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad and upon all his Family and Companions.

All the scholars of Islam are agreed that the Prophet (and all the other Prophets) was infallible. He did not commit any major sins nor did he make any error or mistake while conveying the revelation.


Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {Nor does he speak of (his own) desire. It is only an Inspiration that is inspired.}[53:3-4]


Allah taught him so he did not forget but what Allah wanted him to forget. Allah also gathered the Qur'an in his chest.

Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {We shall make you to recite (the Qur'ân), so you (O Muhammad (Peace be upon him)) shall not forget (it), Except what Allâh, may will,…}[87:6-7].


Allah also Says (interpretation of meaning): {It is for Us to collect it and to give you (O Muhammad SAW) the ability to recite it (the Qur'ân), And when We have recited it to you [O Muhammad SAW through Jibrael (Gabriel)], then follow you its (the Qur'ân's) recital.} [75:17-18].


As for the minor sins, there is a disagreement of the scholars about whether the Prophet ever committed them or not. Some scholars believe that the Prophet was not infallible as far as committing minor sins is concerned.

Others state the opposite. They believe that whenever the Prophet, or any Prophet, commits a minor sin immediately Allah directs him to the right thing not leaving him on his error. If he commits a minor sin, it is not considered defect and does not have any negative impact on his infallibility. He is a human being upon whom Allah has bestowed the gift of Prophethood.

Immediately after committing a minor sin, he makes repentance of Allah, and seeks His forgiveness. No doubt, Allah forgives all sins of sincerely repented.
But it is enough for the Prophet that

Allah Says (interpretation of meaning) about him: "And verily, you (O Muhammad SAW) are on an exalted standard of character." [68:4].


May Allah bless him and pray upon him.

Allah knows best.


Islam Web - Fatwa Center - 'Sins' of the Prophet

 

[Nicola]

Re: Do jewish believe in Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)

Hey Nicola.

First of all, our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) never sinned at all.

That would depend on what people class has sin...lying and murder IMO are sins..and we are accoutable to God.

Whenever Allah's Apostle ordered the Muslims to do something, he used to order them deeds which were easy for them to do, (according to their strength endurance). They said, "O Allah's Apostle! We are not like you. Allah has forgiven your past and future sins."
[sahih bukhari - volume 1 book 2 number 19]

This is stating that Mohammed was a sinner, why else would Allah have to forgive any sin.

In islam, prophets do not commit sins anyway, so i don't understand where you got that idea from?

The above scripture you quoted made that pretty clear..

We believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) was sinless (because he was a prophet - and like i mentioned earlier, prophets don't have any sin.)

Only Jesus died without ever committing a sin.

I don't understand how he was only half flesh, is that because he was born without a father?

While Jesus was on earth he wasn't fully glorified...until he ascended back to the Father, then he became fully divine.



Please can i have some evidence for that?
you provide the scripture that proves Mohammed had committed sins..
Allah has forgiven your past and future sins

To prove from the islamic law that he (peace be upon him) commited a sin?

The Quran says, "Truly Allah guides not one who transgresses and lies." Surah 40:28. In the Hadith, Mohammed was also quoted as saying, "Be honest because honesty leads to goodness, and goodness leads to Paradise. Beware of falsehood because it leads to immorality, and immorality leads to Hell."

I think you need to realise the whole story to find out what this hadith is actually about.

Ka'b bin Ashraf was a man who was causing corruption and propaganda between the pagan arabs, and the jewish people from Medina about the muslims. He would lie about the muslims, and use his poetry (which was the most powerful media at that time) to make people go against the muslims, he even went to the extent of saying rude things about the wives of the companions of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him.)


This was going way too far, and in islam - it is permissible to defend yourself if people are attacking you (whether its through physical means, financial, social etc.) So instead of just letting him get away with it, our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) ordered that he should be assasinated [Yes it is permissible in islam if the person is attacking you] before Ka'b went any further in his attacks.


The following conversation took place between our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his companion;

"Muhammad bin Maslama [the one who would assasinate Ka'b] got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him [Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf]?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it,"

So basically a person didn't agree with Mohammed and was causing problems for him..so to get the man out of the way... lies where told about this man and orders where given to murder him..
So is Islamic law.. if a Muslim believes someone is in your way, causing problems for you.. murder them?

This really doesn't sound very peaceful to me.

Lots of people don't get along but God does not give us the right to go and murder them and lie in the process.

"Lying is wrong, except in three things: ...a lie in war, for war is deception;

According to God lying is always wrong. God hates liars.

Every person lies...I'm not saying people don't lie...but they should repent...not be given permission to lie and tell them it's ok.

Transmitted by Ahmad and Tirmidhi.
Al-Tirmidhi Hadith 5033

Can you imagine a war without deception? Do you think if two armies are at war, do you think telling your enemy the truth is going to make you victorious?

Why would Mohammed have to have such wars at all...I thought Islam was based on peace. Besides I'm not saying people don't lie and not all people at war, believe in a God, so for those people..lying may not be an issue for them.....but a religion that is based on the commandments of God..allowing people to lie?

It does not make any sense to me.

This is the reason why it is permissible to lie in cases such as war, without it - you're going to lose easily.

Well I would never be at war personaly because my Saviour Jesus Christ told us to love for one another..and to love our enemies..but that's Jesus and he came with such a different teaching.

Most people think that islam is a religion full of violence, but one tool thats been used throughout history in battles is the sword. The word 'sword' hasn't been used once in the Qur'an, but in the bible - its been mentioned 434times.

I can only see lying and murder in that above scripture...I see nothing of peace and love for one another.

So islam isn't the only faith that allows to kill, if the enemy attacks you. Its your right to defend yourself, and that is exactly what islam allows.

Christianity does not allow murder..What Mohammed did and his friend was not self defence...premeditated first degree murder.

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits, for Allah does not love transgressors. (Qur'an 2:190)

limits? we have the ten commandments..those are our limits for mankind..go over those limits and you are a trangressor.



Isn't that contradicting what it says in Matthew:

“Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a SWORD. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me” (Matthew 10:34-37).

It doesn't mean Jesus wants us to kill our families etc....he knew following him would cause problems..and even death...Jesus didn't mean a literal sword for Christians to use on people..but he knew violence would be used on Christians..and Christians would be hated...because he tells us we will, he meant following him (Christ) could break families up..but we as Christians must follow his teachings even if it means going against our parents families wishes..He also tells us if we deny him, he will deny us on Judgement day...whereas..Islam law lets you deny God..in order to save your earthly life..

in John 12.25
Jesus tells us .. He who loves his life will lose it. He who hates his life in this world will keep it to eternal life.

meaning never deny Jesus is in your life..that you are a Christian because if you do...you may keep your life on this earthly world... but will lose it at the second death (hell)when Jesus then denys knowing you...Born again Christians will never denounce their faith in Jesus Christ ever. Even if it means losing this earthly life..or spending years in prision because of it..or being thrown to lions or used as a human touch...their faith is so strong..they know God will never leave them in their hour of need.

I hope you understand what i mean, and please don't feel that i'm trying to attack your faith - but i'm just trying to make it clear that nearly all faiths allow self defence, and so does christianity, even if it means defending yourself with the sword.

Peace.


No ..I don't feel your trying to attack my faith at all, we don't learn if we don't ask and I'm not trying to attack yours either...Like I said earlier Jesus tells us we should turn the other cheek..he never gave us permission to lie or murder each other, He said the laws God gave Moses still applied today

Self defence, really is another matter, you are fighting for your own life or your families..literaly...

I see no self defence in planning and lying in order to have someone murdered..

God Bless

I know you agree with these Islamic laws, but for me lying is a very bad sin...I can't abide lying in anyone...never have done. We can lock things away from a theif but you can't from a liar.

I'd like to ask...was if Allah or Mohammed who changed the laws on lying and murder.
I have been told Mohammed overrode Allah on lying.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Thread re-opened.

Note This thread has been split from a previous thread on Judaism and belief in the Prophet Muhammad pbuh.

I'll attempt to briefly address the issues in this thread.

First on the issue of the infallibility of Prophets. Christians like to misquote Qur'anic verses to imply that Prophet Muhammad pbuh was a sinner. I responded to this issue in another thread:

Muhammad acknowledged in the Qur’an that he is a sinner and asks forgiveness for his sins both past, present and future!

Sura 48:2 That Allah may forgive thee thy faults of the past and those to follow; fulfill His favor to thee; and guide thee on the Straight Way

A couple of points to note here:
1. The belief of the infallibility of the Prophets means that they cannot commit sin but are still susceptible to minor mistakes, like all human beings. See here for more info:
http://www.islamicboard.com/75709-post2.html
2. Maghfirah (forgiveness) implies protection in Islam, as it is derived from the same root as a shielding helmet.
3. Tauba (repentence) in Islam is not just for the sinful, it is for everyone, just like one can bathe when they are dirty, but people bathe regularly, dirty or not dirty.

Nicola copied an allegation against the Prophet Muhammad pbuh concerning Ka'b Ibn Al-Ashraf; this has already been addressed in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/15217-assassinations.html

The law against lying was never removed by the Prophet Muhammad pbuh, in fact the Prophet Muhammad pbuh was the most vehemently opposed to lying of all people. On numerous occasions he condemned lying and spoke of how it leads a person straight into the depths of Hell-fire. I could quote countless narrations, but two should suffice for now. The Prophet said:
Make truth mandatory on yourself because truth shows the way to righteousness and righteousness takes you to paradise, and a person becomes committed to the search for the truth until he is listed amongst the truthful by Allah. Stay away from lies because they lead to sin and depravation, which is the way to hell, and the liar is swept by the current of lies, seeks them and is ultimately listed amongst the liars by Allah. (Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi)

When a person lies, the angels shun him for miles because of the stench of that lie (Tirmidhi)

The exception with regard to war is only to prevent loss of life. For example, if a Muslim is told to provide information to the enemy which will aid them in killing innocents, muslim or non-muslim, then obviously to deceieve is the lesser evil.

Since this is the comparative religion section, I don't mind discussing lying and deception in Christianity.

Is the God of the New Testament really opposed lying and deception?

2 Thessalonians 2:11 (NIV) For this reason God sends them a powerful DELUSION so that they will believe the LIE

In the NLT it uses DECEPTION instead of DELUSION. The God of the New Testament DECEIVES and causes some to believe in a LIE?

And what does Paul say?

2 Corinthians 12:16 Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!

Trickery
n: The practice of deception​

(Oxford Dictionary)​

As for Nicola's allegation that the Qur'an endorses violence, this has been refuted in great detail here:
Commonly Misquoted Verses and Narrations - Load-Islam.com

Regards

 

[akulion]

well best to my knowledge according to the bible jesus was telling people to kill and wage war in his famous words from the bible "do you think I have come to make peace? No I have come to turn father against son and son agains father, I have brought a sword..etc etc"

thats sounds pretty sinful to me

Inf act quoting Hitler the devout Christian who was inspired from the words of the bible:

If my kingdom were from this world, my followers would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews.
-Jesus in John 18:36 [NRSV]

Of course Hitler lived in this world and, indeed, his followers fought for him against the Jews.


--------------------

Quote:
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
-Jesus in Luke 12:51

Hitler not only divided countries on earth, but divided Jewish families, many times setting family members against each other.

==============

Not to mention according to the bible jesus told people not to let women talk in the church thus preaching sexism

Also the bible portrays childbirth as a punishment upon women and considers them to tbe the sinful party in the whole adam / eve affair...once again sexism

Not to mention the famous verse "blasphemers should be put to death" thus preaching no freedom of religion

And ofcourse the world famous preaching of the bible on discipling the kids with a rod thus preaching child abuse

Sounds pretty sinful and violent to me

All that being said I think the bible really puts Jesus is a bad light

We however know that all the Prophets of Allah are absolved from being sinful.

 

[PrIM3]

well best to my knowledge according to the bible jesus was telling people to kill and wage war in his famous words from the bible "do you think I have come to make peace? No I have come to turn father against son and son agains father, I have brought a sword..etc etc"

thats sounds pretty sinful to me

Inf act quoting Hitler the devout Christian who was inspired from the words of the bible:

If my kingdom were from this world, my followers would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews.
-Jesus in John 18:36 [NRSV]

Of course Hitler lived in this world and, indeed, his followers fought for him against the Jews.


--------------------

Quote:
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
-Jesus in Luke 12:51

Hitler not only divided countries on earth, but divided Jewish families, many times setting family members against each other.

==============

Not to mention according to the bible jesus told people not to let women talk in the church thus preaching sexism

Also the bible portrays childbirth as a punishment upon women and considers them to tbe the sinful party in the whole adam / eve affair...once again sexism

Not to mention the famous verse "blasphemers should be put to death" thus preaching no freedom of religion

And ofcourse the world famous preaching of the bible on discipling the kids with a rod thus preaching child abuse

Sounds pretty sinful and violent to me

All that being said I think the bible really puts Jesus is a bad light

We however know that all the Prophets of Allah are absolved from being sinful.

yeah from your point of view it does sound pretty sinful... but reading it in context.. it means that Jesus did not come to bring False Peace but infact He came to bring the truth... in Him is TRUE Peace.

Jesus said that He was not of this world but from Heaven where His angles would have fought to keep Him from dieing on the cross if Jesus would have said the word to.. but chosed not to...

 

[akulion]

well that still leaves the issue of sexism, child abuse and condemnation of freedom of speech and religion

 

[Nicola]

As for Nicola's allegation that the Qur'an endorses violence, this has been refuted in great detail here:

Ka'b bin Ashraf was a man who was causing corruption and propaganda between the pagan arabs, and the jewish people from Medina about the muslims. He would lie about the muslims, and use his poetry (which was the most powerful media at that time) to make people go against the muslims, he even went to the extent of saying rude things about the wives of the companions of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him.)


This was going way too far, and in islam - it is permissible to defend yourself if people are attacking you (whether its through physical means, financial, social etc.) So instead of just letting him get away with it, our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) ordered that he should be assasinated [Yes it is permissible in islam if the person is attacking you] before Ka'b went any further in his attacks.


The following conversation took place between our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and his companion;

"Muhammad bin Maslama [the one who would assasinate Ka'b] got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him [Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf]?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it

,"

allegations? I'm was only reading this scripture above...that's all I was doing, questioning..in the last thread.



I see no self defence, I see no mention of any threats to Mohammads life or anyones else's.....OK this man was a pest and causing problems for Mohammed and it's says being rude to his wives, which must have got him angry...But I still see no reason for what they did to him.

Christians like to misquote Qur'anic verses to imply that Prophet Muhammad pbuh was a sinner

I can't see that I have taken it out of context by Jesus' teachings at least and my own conscience, this behaviour would be totally against what Jesus taught us concerning spreading Gods message. It's just so completely different to how God tells us to behave to one another.


You also said Mohammed was sinless...but then you added this scripture

They said, "O Allah's Apostle! We are not like you. Allah has forgiven your past and future sins."
[sahih bukhari - volume 1 book 2 number 19]

Why this contridicton?

The belief of the infallibility of the Prophets means that they cannot commit sin but are still susceptible to minor mistakes, like all human beings

Do you mean minor sins?

If so guess then there are a lot of sinless people who have lived and are living if we don't take minor sins has sining..but to me a sin is a sin...no matter how big or small...

Jesus said

You have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not commit murder' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca', shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool', shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." Mt. 5:21-22

So even anger is a sin.

 

[azim]

Jesus said
Quote:
You have heard that the ancients were told, 'You shall not commit murder' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca', shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever shall say, 'You fool', shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." Mt. 5:21-22
So even anger is a sin.

This is one of the reasons why I find it so hard to have a reasonable discussion with Christians. They never have one stance throughout. No offence intended, but at one point Christians say it is impossible to follow the laws and that the law was 'nailed to the cross' so to speak(they would even quote the above passage, or usually, one that follows regarding adultery). At the same time, Christians will quote verses above to show the high moral values of Christianity. So which one is it? If the law was nailed to the cross, then all the commandments go bye bye, including 'thou shalt not murder'.

 

[Nicola]

This is one of the reasons why I find it so hard to have a reasonable discussion with Christians. They never have one stance throughout. No offence intended, but at one point Christians say it is impossible to follow the laws and that the law was 'nailed to the cross' so to speak(they would even quote the above passage, or usually, one that follows regarding adultery). At the same time, Christians will quote verses above to show the high moral values of Christianity. So which one is it? If the law was nailed to the cross, then all the commandments go bye bye, including 'thou shalt not murder'.

It is easily broken down...

God tells us here about the new covenant to come..the one Jesus gave us.

Jeremiah 31:33

But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people:

The ten commandments still stand they are written in our hearts and minds....all the ritual laws have gone..burnt offerings, sin sacrifices..food laws etc...Jesus freed us from all this...God is more concerned with our hearts...than what we eat, how we pray, what we wear etc the religious leaders of that time where more concerned with doing every detail of the law correct, believing that was pleasing God..but Jesus tells us No.. these kind of people who only follow the law..but have no love for one another is not the way to please God.

Matthew

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

24You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel

25"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.


27"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

Can you see what Jesus is telling us..from the outside people may look perfect but only to other people because God knows our hearts..God wants us to be beautiful and clean inside...some people only think of their outside appears...doing the right religions rituals etc..this will not please God..we need to be inwardly clean.


Then from those 10 commandments Jesus breaks then down into two..which are:
Matthew
22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
22:37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your and with all your soul and with all your mind.
22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbour as yourself.
22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

So now we have these two commandments...the other 8 of the 10 commandments..fit nicely into just 1...which is love your neighbour.
for instance you shouldn't steal from your neighbour
shouldn't lie to your neighbour
shouldn't commit adultery against your neighbour
shouldn't murder your neighbour...
Can you see how all those different commandments comes down to basically 'love your neighbour'?

Christians are sinners like everyone else...But when Jesus scarficed himself for us...his blood covered our sins...He was the sin offering to the father to pay for our sins..(in the OT God told the Jews to use unblemished animals for their atonement for sin to Him) but in the NT Jesus was that sinless sacrifice.

So now who ever takes Jesus has their saviour He atones for their sins, they are covered by Jesus' blood and their sins are wiped clean away..that way Chrsitians are free from from the bondage of sin and also free from the rituals, and most importantly free from Hell...

Jesus was a one off payment...unlike in the OT...animals had to keep being used to atone for sin all the time to God.

So even though we will still commit sins and we still repent to God for our sins..we must mean it because God knows our hearts.. God will then forgive us our sins and we are gaurenteed eternal life with the Father.

When you recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit..He leads you and changes you..to know in your heart what is pleasing to God.

This is what God meant when he said in Jeremiah...I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and he does exactly that for all born-again Christians.

hope this helps...lol

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello Nicola,

I see no self defence, I see no mention of any threats to Mohammads life or anyones else's.....OK this man was a pest and causing problems for Mohammed and it's says being rude to his wives, which must have got him angry...But I still see no reason for what they did to him.

Ahem. Like I already said:

This has already been addressed in this thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/15217-assassinations.html

The man was killed for his involvement in instigating the military campaigns against the Muslims. Please read the debate.

I can't see that I have taken it out of context by Jesus' teachings at least and my own conscience, this behaviour would be totally against what Jesus taught us concerning spreading Gods message. It's just so completely different to how God tells us to behave to one another.

I noticed you completely neglected to comment on paul's deception or the fact that the God of the New Testament deceives and causes some to believe in a lie. Please comment:

2 Thessalonians 2:11 (NIV) For this reason God sends them a powerful DELUSION so that they will believe the LIE

2 Corinthians 12:16 Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!

You also said Mohammed was sinless...but then you added this scripture

Did you not read what I wrote? Do I really have to re-paste my response a second time?

2. Maghfirah (forgiveness) implies protection in Islam, as it is derived from the same root as a shielding helmet.
3. Tauba (repentence) in Islam is not just for the sinful, it is for everyone, just like one can bathe when they are dirty, but people bathe regularly, dirty or not dirty.​

There is no contradiction. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh used to seek Allah's maghfirah (forgiveness) from all shortcomings, and also remembers that the shortcomings of the Prophets are different from ours. For them, not doing the best possible righteous and noble sacrifice would be a shortcoming. For us ihsaan (the highest moral standard of conduct) is a goal, for them it was an obligation.

Jesus said

What about Jesus? Was he sinless?

In Matthew 23 Jesus lashes out at the Jews, (13) But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!… (16) Woe unto you, ye blind guides, … (17) Ye fools and blind: … (33) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?!

You say anger is a sin, yet the above passage depicts a Jesus who is a little more than angry.

Another example - the Torah says in Exodus 22:20 that one must not mistreat foreigners but in Matthew 15:22-27, Jesus refers to a gentile woman as a dog. However Christians wish to explain these things away, they cannot maintain a double standard when it comes to their allegations against Islam.

Jesus was half human(flesh) was able to sin but didn't He was also half divine..

Half-man and half-god? Does that mean he half-died? And that he had half-omniscience and half-omnipotence?

 

[PrIM3]

Half-man and half-god? Does that mean he half-died? And that he had half-omniscience and half-omnipotence?

ok do muslims believe in the Burning Bush?

 

[Nicola]

Hello Nicola,

I noticed you completely neglected to comment on paul's deception or the fact that the God of the New Testament deceives and causes some to believe in a lie. Please comment:

I was trying to understand about the Islamic laws first, without throwing other issues' into the debate...saving confusion..because that happened in the other thread.

2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders,
2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 (NIV) For this reason God sends them a powerful DELUSION so that they will believe the LIE

2Th 2:12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2Th 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
2Th 2:14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

These scriptures are referring to the endtimes...the Great Tribulation...
This is the final purging out of all the people left on earth who rejected Jesus after the rapture. That is what this is all about. God's strong delusion will cause their wickedness to be full so that their final damnation will be complete and lead them to hell...God already knows which people will not accept Jesus Christ has their saviour, all who do not are condemed to hell. Some will not accept this false Christ, we are told and those people will be saved..even if they are murdered they will recieve eternal life..for not denouncing Jesus Christ as Lord.
Yes God is giving permission to the evil one to tempt people...God uses evil spirits (demons) many times in the Bible..But it isn't God who is doing the decieving..but He is allowing the evil one to do it...we have freewill to choose between good and evil.

2 Corinthians 12:16 Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!

I don't know if you know the history behind the Corinthians church? or you have just taken this one passage as meaning Paul was a deciever?
The Corinthian church believed it was higher than any other church..some of their members thought themselves better than anyone else..closer to Jesus and God..this church infact was run by false teachers and they where challenging Pauls' intergrity and his authority as an apostle of Christ. Because Paul had to change his plans that he would visit them on one long visit instead of two short one...they where now saying, he his word was not to be trusted so he was not a true apostle of Christ also they where saying he was putting the money they had collected into his own pocket instead of giving it to the poor believers in Jerusalem. Paul is writing to them in order that they would consider that his life was always honourable and that his life-transforming message of salvation was true. He gives examples of this throughout the letter...all his ministry was florishing and many where being born-again, he reminds them of the miracles, signs etc.. and tells them he is nothing he is weak and only strong in Christ..that all this is Christ working through him.
When he writes 'Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery!

Paul is sarcastically echoeing another slander they have made against him by the false apostles that he was exploiting them by the trick of orgainsing a collection for the poor Christians in Jerusalem...contributions that would never reach the mother city because they went into pauls' own pocket.!

He goes on to say 17 Did I exploit you through any of the mean I sent you?

18 I urged Titus to go, and sent the brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not act in the same spirit? Did we not take the same steps?
19 Have you been thinking all along that we have been defending ourselves to you? It is in the sight of God that we have been speaking in Christ, and all for your upbuilding, beloved.
20 For I fear that perhaps when I come I may find you not as I wish, and that you may find me not as you wish--that perhaps there may be quarreling, jealousy, anger, hostility, slander, gossip, conceit, and disorder.
21 I fear that when I come again my God may humble me before you, and I may have to mourn over many of those who sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual immorality, and sensuality that they have practiced.


Paul isn't saying in 2 Corinthians 12:16 He is tricking them...but he is being sarcastic! If you read the whole letter.

Did you not read what I wrote? Do I really have to re-paste my response a second time?

2. Maghfirah (forgiveness) implies protection in Islam, as it is derived from the same root as a shielding helmet.
3. Tauba (repentence) in Islam is not just for the sinful, it is for everyone, just like one can bathe when they are dirty, but people bathe regularly, dirty or not dirty.​

There is no contradiction. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh used to seek Allah's maghfirah (forgiveness) from all shortcomings, and also remembers that the shortcomings of the Prophets are different from ours. For them, not doing the best possible righteous and noble sacrifice would be a shortcoming. For us ihsaan (the highest moral standard of conduct) is a goal, for them it was an obligation.

So all Muslims who pray for forgiveness and this prayer Maghfirah 'implies protection in Islam'..same as a shielding helmet you say in life for all sins committed here on earth...

Does this mean all are sinless whoever prays for this protection in Islam?..

If these sins are (protectioned) from Allah, does this mean they couldn't be weighed for these sins on judgement day?

surely if so, there would be no need for the scales of justice on Judgement day for the people who ask for this protection.
Is that how it works?



What about Jesus? Was he sinless?

In Matthew 23 Jesus lashes out at the Jews, (13) But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!… (16) Woe unto you, ye blind guides, … (17) Ye fools and blind: … (33) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?!

You say anger is a sin, yet the above passage depicts a Jesus who is a little more than angry.

If he was a little more than angry it would mean they would have felt Jesus' wrath following on from what he spoke to them, that would have been sinful anger..but there was no wrath and no sin, he spoke the truth, that this kind of living was wrong and an example for us all to follow..Gods' wrath would follow on Judgement day..which would be 'Just' and according to his laws. If people contintue to live this way!

For a Christain we understand there is a Sinful Anger and a Righteous Anger.
We can have righteous anger and not sin. But it is possible to sin in "righteous anger" if we harbor grudges because this would lead us into sin.

So we should be careful it is the kind of anger that is not sinful. Even a righteous wrath by overindulgence (more than what is Just) may pass all too easily into sin if we give in to the devil.
In our righteous anger we should forgive others of there wrongdoings. Even in righteous anger we must not let it wreck vengeance on others. That is sin.

Another example - the Torah says in Exodus 22:20 that one must not mistreat foreigners but in Matthew 15:22-27, Jesus refers to a gentile woman as a dog. However Christians wish to explain these things away, they cannot maintain a double standard when it comes to their allegations against Islam.

I agree it does seem rather a cruel word to call the gentiles.. but I do know the intention in his heart would have been good....so I do not judge, Jesus still healed her daughter of the demon posession.
I understand the meaning behind Jesus calling her a dog..do you understand why Jesus was referring to the gentiles has dogs?...some say he meant house dog and not a wild dog...because a wild dog would not be in a house...other people say he meant puppy.

Half-man and half-god? Does that mean he half-died? And that he had half-omniscience and half-omnipotence?

It means Jesus was God who came down in the flesh...so he wasn't fully glorified while living in human flesh.

 

[Muslim Soldier]

Re: Do jewish believe in Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)

That would depend on what people class has sin...lying and murder IMO are sins..and we are accoutable to God.

And by that statement what do you mean?
That Muhammad (saww) lied and murdered? Naudhubillah!

This is stating that Mohammed was a sinner, why else would Allah have to forgive any sin.

The statement "Allah has forgiven your past and future sins" was said by the normal people. God did not say that he had forgiven Muhammad's sins (coz he had none)

 

[Nicola]

Re: Do jewish believe in Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)

=Muslim Soldier;282958]And by that statement what do you mean?
That Muhammad (saww) lied and murdered? Naudhubillah!

What does Naudhabuillah mean please?

I am saying in that particular scripture that was shown me concerning
Ka'b bin Ashraf upsetting Mohammed. I see permission was given to lie about him and that lead to permission given for his murdered.
Why where lies needed to be told about him...why not stick to the truth and say he was a trouble maker etc. Truth always wins over lies in the long run.
btw I would like to know how was Ka'b bin Ashraf actually murdered? Do scriptures tell us.

The statement "Allah has forgiven your past and future sins" was said by the normal people. God did not say that he had forgiven Muhammad's sins (coz he had none)

Yet other Muslims here have stated Mohammed did commit minor transgressions(sins)..but was protected by Allah..and forgiven for them.

 

[Muslim Knight]

Re: Do jewish believe in Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)

What does Naudhabuillah mean please?

Na'udhu billah. We seek protection from God.

I am saying in that particular scripture that was shown me concerning
Ka'b bin Ashraf upsetting Mohammed. I see permission was given to lie about him and that lead to permission given for his murdered.
Why where lies needed to be told about him...why not stick to the truth and say he was a trouble maker etc. Truth always wins over lies in the long run.

btw I would like to know how was Ka'b bin Ashraf actually murdered? Do scriptures tell us.

He broke a clause in the covenant signed between Muslims and Jews in Madinah. It was an act of treason.

What About The Killing of Ka'ab bin Al-Ashraf?

Yet other Muslims here have stated Mohammed did commit minor transgressions(sins)..but was protected by Allah..and forgiven for them.

Can you give examples as to how the Prophet sinned? As for the deception, the Prophet never lied, he gave permission as to deceive Ka'b to come out of his dwelling so that he could be properly be dealt with. This is to say that Ka'b has been convicted guilty of treason against the covenant that has been erected. It wasn't about the Prophet's personal vendetta.

The Prophet was protected by Allah from sins. Can you tell me incidents where he fornicated? stole? murdered? The Prophet was sinless because he committed none!

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Hello Nicola,

God's strong delusion will cause their wickedness to be full so that their final damnation will be complete and lead them to hell...
[...]
Yes God is giving permission to the evil one to tempt people...God uses evil spirits (demons) many times in the Bible..But it isn't God who is doing the decieving..but He is allowing the evil one to do it

The verse itself says that God sends the delusion (or deception in NLT); now if you want to say that God deceives through the evil one, that is fine but clearly the New Testament has no hesitation attributing the evil one's deception to God. The passage states in no uncertain terms that God does deceive and causes some to believe in a lie. How He does that and why is a seperate issue.

So all Muslims who pray for forgiveness and this prayer Maghfirah 'implies protection in Islam'..same as a shielding helmet you say in life for all sins committed here on earth...

Yes, when Muslims pray for maghfirah the meaning encompasses both forgiveness for our shortcomings and protection from them as well.

Does this mean all are sinless whoever prays for this protection in Islam?..

No. We are not protected from sins as much as the Prophets. Which answers your next question too. Protection from sin does not mean that we are not accountable for sins; it means that we are protected from falling into them. The Prophets have been protected from falling into sins but not minor mistakes. And remember the shortcomings of prophets are not like our shortcomings. For them, not doing the best righteous deed is a shortcoming.

So again, since you seem to have misunderstood, let me repeat this more clearly. The shortcomings of the Prophets are not like the shortcomings of others. The Prophets were not immune to mistakes but they did not sin. The Prophet Muhammad pbuh used to seek God's forgiveness and protection from any of his shortcomings.

So we should be careful it is the kind of anger that is not sinful. Even a righteous wrath by overindulgence (more than what is Just) may pass all too easily into sin if we give in to the devil.
In our righteous anger we should forgive others of there wrongdoings. Even in righteous anger we must not let it wreck vengeance on others. That is sin.

But Jesus was not restraining his anger here at all. He lashed out insulting them as serpents, blind fools and vipers. In fact in the verse you quoted it says that Jesus said:
and whoever shall say, 'You fool', shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
He did not make any exception in the above verse. And yet Jesus does not hesitate to call the Jews blind fools!

I understand the meaning behind Jesus calling her a dog..do you understand why Jesus was referring to the gentiles has dogs?...some say he meant house dog and not a wild dog...because a wild dog would not be in a house...other people say he meant puppy.

Does it matter if someone calls you a house dog or a wild dog?! Being called a dog is extremely offensive and degrading. If a Christian calls a gentile a dog is that not considered a sin?

It means Jesus was God who came down in the flesh...so he wasn't fully glorified while living in human flesh.

So which part of the God-man died? The God part or the man part?

I am saying in that particular scripture that was shown me concerning
Ka'b bin Ashraf upsetting Mohammed. I see permission was given to lie about him and that lead to permission given for his murdered.
Why where lies needed to be told about him...why not stick to the truth and say he was a trouble maker etc. Truth always wins over lies in the long run.
btw I would like to know how was Ka'b bin Ashraf actually murdered? Do scriptures tell us.

Nicola, this is the third time I am referreing you to my answer on this:
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/15217-assassinations.html
He was killed for his involvement in instigating the military campaigns against the Muslims. Please read the debate.

You protest when I take Paul's statements out of textual context yet you have no hesitation to rob these incidents of their historical context. Double standards?

Regards

ps. Off-topc posts were removed. This thread has already gone off-topic in the past. Please ensure that all comments are on topic.