"Q" and the Quranic Jesus

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bartdanr

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I just read a short book called "Beyond Mere Christianity", written by a former Christian, regarding the "Q" source and the Islamic Jesus.

If you are not familiar with the "Q" source, it is the theory that Matthew & Luke compiled their gospels from Mark and another (undiscovered) source, called "Q" (for "Quelle", source, in German). This theory attempts to account for the remarkable verbal agreements between Matthew & Luke.

"Q" as reconstructed by scholars is largely (perhaps purely) a source of Jesus' sayings, not deeds. The author of "Beyond Mere Christianity" uses this to show an agreement with the earliest gospel message and the Quranic revelation regarding Jesus.

Is anyone else familiar with this theory or has a comment on it?

Bart
 
Interesting.. perhaps some of the converts on board can address this..

peace
 
The 'Q' theory is a well established and widely accepted theory that tries to account for the similarities between Matthew and Luke, as you say.

Can you provide some more information about "Beyond Mere Christianity" and what it actually claims? We don't have a single page or even word of "Q", if it ever existed. It seems very academically 'courageous' to claim anything about its contents except, perhaps, those already assumed to be replicated in Matthew and Luke... and we can't even be certain of that.
 
Can you provide some more information about "Beyond Mere Christianity" and what it actually claims?
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Author: Brandon Toropov​


Beyond Mere Christianity



ummyasmin on May 22nd said:
** |
I know I have many Christian readers, and normally I am someone who avoids the whole apologetic thing, because authors like Deedat make me cringe. They don’t have any real conception about what Christianity is, and how Christians are.

But dear Christian readers, just bear with me for this post. I am a Muslim, and it is true that Muslims believe many things that Christians believe, but it is also true that we believe things that Christians do not believe. I would be silly to try and pretend this is not so.

So, if you can keep an open mind, with the possibility that you may just find out something about the Messiah that has been kept from you… something that Jesus, peace be upon him, would want you to know!
If you knew of a book that introduced you to:

  • what Jesus taught
  • why Jesus was and is Muslim
  • why you should follow the teachings of Jesus and become Muslim too!
Brandon Yusuf Toropov is a convert and has written simply the best booklet I have ever read.

He points out how the oldest Gospel material (named Q by non-Muslim Biblical scholars) actually confirms what Islam teaches about Jesus: that Jesus taught we should only worship the one God; that Jesus rejected any attempt to consider him divine; that Jesus taught the path to salvation is not the substitutionary atonement, but rather to do the will of God.
I have bought six copies so I can give them to people. You can actually download the eBook for free >> here.

If it’s all wrong, it doesn’t matter. But, if it’s true, shouldn’t you take a moment to consider?
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miniBiography said:
** ummyasmin, aspiring academic and occasional writer for the Faith column of the Sunday Age. UmmYasmin was born and raised Baha'i, but in a daring decision to convert to a socially-devalued religion, became a Muslim a few years ago.
Click to expand...
 
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That's right, the concept of "Beyond Mere Christianity," was based on facts that the 4 Gospels were written based on the writing by Josephus the Historian, that's why we could see that the writer of 4 Gospels wrote the Geography of Judea wrongly.
They only wrote it about 100 BC and people said they write it 30-50 BC.

M.Hashem told this based on Acharya S.writings in Christ Conspiracy, Powell Davies in The First Christian, T.W.Doane in The Bible Myths and Their Parallels In Other Religion etc.

and the writer of NT also made numerous mistakes on their writings, and this toughening what Allah has stated "


QS.Al Baqarah (2):78 Wa minhum ummiyyu_na la_ ya'lamu_nal kita_ba illa_ ama_niyya wa in hum illa_ yazunnu_n(a).


78 And there are among them illiterates who know not the Book but (see therein their own) desires and they do nothing but conjecture.


The NT writers made mistakes in writing the NT(the mispeling,write the Geography of Judea wrongly etc). I think that's very clear.



Assalamu manit taba'al huda(May peace be upon who follow the guidance.
 
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QS.Al Baqarah (2):78 Wa minhum ummiyyu_na la_ ya'lamu_nal kita_ba illa_ ama_niyya wa in hum illa_ yazunnu_n(a).


78 And there are among them illiterates who know not the Book but (see therein their own) desires and they do nothing but conjecture.
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are you sure that you are not misquoting this ayat? if you think that you are not, can you explain why, how?
 
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Interesting still.. I might just invest in this book.. insha'Allah and speaking of which, if anyone can direct me to where I can purchase Mustafa Al-Azami's books from the U.S I'd appreciate it.. seems the three I am looking for are either out of stock or must be purchased from over seas

Jazakoum Allah khyran

:w:
 
doorster said:
have you tried http://albalagh.net/bookstore/

note the address quick in case it vanishes
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:sl:

yeah Jazaka Allah khyran.. I think it is no longer being made?

The History of the Qur'anic Text: From Revelation to Compilation
The History of the Qur'anic Text: From Revelation to Compilation
(Dr. M. M. Al-Azami-English - Paperback - 376 pages)
Out of Stock
A detailed history of the Qur'an from revelation to compilation as well as a comparative study with the Old and New Testaments. This monumental effort, a scholarly work composed in an impassioned tone,... More Detail...
Price: $35.00
Stock Number: 0762 Out of Stock

all his books always seem to be out of stock.. including a rebuttal he wrote to one of those christian apologists -- of course you find the defamatory book but not the rebuttal to it.. it saddens me.. imsad

:w:
 
Skye Ephémérine said:
Jazaka Allah khyran for this one.. that is excellent.. how do you put click me links like that?

:w:
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firstly you either need to go to http://www.islamicboard.com/profile/edit-options/

scroll down to Miscellaneous Options >> Message Editor Interface >> select the last one from three interface types available to you. The simplest of these is a simple text box, while the last is a fully-fledged WYSIWYG editor, which allows you to format your text as you want it and see the results immediately.

then save changes

and you are ready to copy and paste including pictures and original formatting

or you click this >> BB code to learn how to do it manually
 
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Abdul Thayyib said:
That's right, the concept of "Beyond Mere Christianity," was based on facts that the 4 Gospels were written based on the writing by Josephus the Historian, that's why we could see that the writer of 4 Gospels wrote the Geography of Judea wrongly.
They only wrote it about 100 BC and people said they write it 30-50 BC.

M.Hashem told this based on Acharya S.writings in Christ Conspiracy, Powell Davies in The First Christian, T.W.Doane in The Bible Myths and Their Parallels In Other Religion etc.

and the writer of NT also made numerous mistakes on their writings, and this toughening what Allah has stated "


QS.Al Baqarah (2):78 Wa minhum ummiyyu_na la_ ya'lamu_nal kita_ba illa_ ama_niyya wa in hum illa_ yazunnu_n(a).


78 And there are among them illiterates who know not the Book but (see therein their own) desires and they do nothing but conjecture.



Assalamu manit taba'al huda(May peace be upon who follow the guidance.
Click to expand...

The NT writers made mistakes in writing the NT(the mispeling,write the Geography of Judea wrongly etc). I think that's very clear.
 
doorster said:
firstly you need to go to http://www.islamicboard.com/profile/edit-options/

scroll down to Miscellaneous Options >> Message Editor Interface >> select the last one from three interface types available to you. The simplest of these is a simple text box, while the last is a fully-fledged WYSIWYG editor, which allows you to format your text as you want it and see the results immediately.

then save changes

and you are ready to copy and paste including pictures and original formatting or you click this >> BB code to learn how to do it manually
Click to expand...
:sl:
Jazaka Allah khyran.. sounds complicated, but will give it a try..

:w:
 
Abdul Thayyib said:
The NT writers made mistakes in writing the NT(the mispeling,write the Geography of Judea wrongly etc). I think that's very clear.
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yes but my question was:
QS.Al Baqarah (2):78 Wa minhum ummiyyu_na la_ ya'lamu_nal kita_ba illa_ ama_niyya wa in hum illa_ yazunnu_n(a).

78 And there are among them illiterates who know not the Book but (see therein their own) desires and they do nothing but conjecture.
Click to expand...
are you sure that you are not misquoting this ayat? if you think that you are not, can you explain why, how?:sl:
 
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I'm not misquoting the ayat. It is Al Baqarah 78 and it was meant for the people who attribute their books as Taurat and Injil.


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh
 
Abdul Thayyib said:
I'm not misquoting the ayat. It is Al Baqarah 78 and it was meant for the people who attribute their books as Taurat and Injil.


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh
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wa alaikm salaam wa rahamatullah wa barakat

point out mention of Injil please


  • 70. they said, "Call upon Your Lord for us to make plain to us what it is. Verily to us All cows are alike, and surely, if Allâh wills, we will be guided."
  • 71. He [Mûsa (Moses)] said, "He says, 'It is a cow neither trained to till the soil nor water the fields, sound, having no other colour except bright yellow.' " they said, "Now You have brought the truth." so they slaughtered it though they were near to not doing it.
  • 72. and (remember) when You killed a man and fell into dispute among yourselves as to the crime. but Allâh brought forth that which You were hiding.
  • 73. so we said: "Strike Him (the dead man) with a piece of it (the cow)." Thus Allâh brings the dead to life and shows You his Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) so that You may understand.
  • 74. then, after that, Your hearts were hardened and became as stones or even worse In hardness. and indeed, there are stones out of which rivers gush forth, and indeed, there are of them (stones) which split asunder so that water flows from them, and indeed, there are of them (stones) which fall down for fear of Allâh. and Allâh is not unaware of what You do.
  • 75. do You (faithful believers) covet that they will believe In Your Religion inspite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the word of Allâh [the Taurât (Torah)], Then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?
  • 76. and when they (Jews) meet those who believe (Muslims), they say, "We believe", but when they meet one another In private, they say, "Shall You (Jews) tell them (Muslims) what Allâh has revealed to You [Jews, about the description and the qualities of Prophet Muhammad Sal-Allaahu 'alayhe Wa Sallam , that which are written In the Taurât (Torah)] , that they (Muslims) may argue with You (Jews) about it before Your Lord?" have You (Jews) Then no understanding?
  • 77. know they (Jews) not that Allâh knows what they conceal and what they reveal?
  • 78. and there are among them (Jews) unlettered people, who know not the Book, but they trust upon false desires and they but guess.
 
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I haven't read that book, but the theory of the Quelle document is well known within the biblical textual criticism field.

One of my favorite authors to read on this subject is Bart Ehrman. Everything I've picked up by him has been fabulous. I actually just found a textbook on the New Testament by him at a used bookstore. Previous editions are probably cheaper online.
 

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