"Q" and the Quranic Jesus

[mkh4JC]

Peace, Everyone,

I just read a short book called "Beyond Mere Christianity", written by a former Christian, regarding the "Q" source and the Islamic Jesus.

If you are not familiar with the "Q" source, it is the theory that Matthew & Luke compiled their gospels from Mark and another (undiscovered) source, called "Q" (for "Quelle", source, in German). This theory attempts to account for the remarkable verbal agreements between Matthew & Luke.

"Q" as reconstructed by scholars is largely (perhaps purely) a source of Jesus' sayings, not deeds. The author of "Beyond Mere Christianity" uses this to show an agreement with the earliest gospel message and the Quranic revelation regarding Jesus.

Is anyone else familiar with this theory or has a comment on it?

Bart

I wasn't familiar with it, but then again I'm a baby in Christ, and not well developed, for varying reasons. But here's a quote from a gentlemen on Christian-Thinktank:

For some reason, these arguments don't ever seem to be satisfied. If we have N witnesses to a event, they want "N+1"...And if EVERY SINGLE WRITER talks about the event in EXACT detail, they are accused of "collusion" and "conspiracy". And if EVERY SINGLE WRITER talks about the event, but uses different vocab, style, levels of precison, of selection of details, THEN the antagonists complain about 'contradictions' and 'disagreements'! What's a mother to do?!!!!

(I am always amused at these 'argument from silence' literary positions and the ability to spoof it are difficult to resist: "Since Jesus never spoke his own name in the Gospels, he must not have known it!").

But more seriously, there is no reason at all why ANY event has to be in EVERY gospel...even if it WAS important to the church. These authors knew about the others' works; the "synoptic problem" is ample witness to this!

 

[جوري]

The arguments are not satisfied simply because you are not giving any sound answers-- from the lowest denominator illogical, and are not in concert with the notion of an omniscient originator!
Basing faith on the dreams and visions of charlatan who were known nemesis to Christ doesn't cut it with reasoning people to be a viable rationale to subscribe to a religion.. Christianity can't pull its weight least of which when measured against itself.. glad the above quoted apologists had enough good sense to at least mention that in his closing statement..


cheers

 

[mkh4JC]

The arguments are not satisfied simply because you are not giving any sound answers-- from the lowest denominator illogical, and are not in concert with the notion of an omniscient originator!
Basing faith on the dreams and visions of charlatan who were known nemesis to Christ doesn't cut it with reasoning people to be a viable rationale to subscribe to a religion.. Christianity can't pull its weight least of which when measured against itself.. glad the above quoted apologists had enough good sense to at least mention that in his closing statement..


cheers

Here I gather you must be referring to Paul's conversion. You have to understand, that Paul did all that he did in ignorance. It was common in the Old Testament days to put to death those who ventured from the faith, and worshipped "strange Gods" and that is what he and certain Jews perceived Chrisitianity to be.

But God had mercy on Paul, and revealed himself to him. Here's a good scripture, it's source a quote from the Old Testament:

'For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.' Romans 9: 15. Paul even laments somewhere in the New Testament how that he is not as worthy as the other Apostles because he persecuted the church. I know it's written somewhere, I just can't find it right now.

And I don't think we (as Christians) have to base our faith just around Paul's writings. We have (in terms of major New Testament authors) the works of Peter, James, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and the author of Hebrews, to go along with Paul's writings.

 

[جوري]

It is inconsequential really what you believe, considering none of the folks you mention were actually acquaintances of Jesus -- Paul did what he did out of calculation the man managed to do away with most of the commandments and the covenant between God and Abraham -- Let's put it this way, go be happy praying to Jesus or eating or drinking his blood in church while clapping and cheering and leave us in peace-- not every thread is in need of your irrelevant input!

cheers

 

[Zamtsa]

wa alaikm salaam wa rahamatullah wa barakat

point out mention of Injil please

• 70. they said, "Call upon Your Lord for us to make plain to us what it is. Verily to us All cows are alike, and surely, if Allâh wills, we will be guided."
• 71. He [Mûsa (Moses)] said, "He says, 'It is a cow neither trained to till the soil nor water the fields, sound, having no other colour except bright yellow.' " they said, "Now You have brought the truth." so they slaughtered it though they were near to not doing it.
• 72. and (remember) when You killed a man and fell into dispute among yourselves as to the crime. but Allâh brought forth that which You were hiding.
• 73. so we said: "Strike Him (the dead man) with a piece of it (the cow)." Thus Allâh brings the dead to life and shows You his Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) so that You may understand.
• 74. then, after that, Your hearts were hardened and became as stones or even worse In hardness. and indeed, there are stones out of which rivers gush forth, and indeed, there are of them (stones) which split asunder so that water flows from them, and indeed, there are of them (stones) which fall down for fear of Allâh. and Allâh is not unaware of what You do.
• 75. do You (faithful believers) covet that they will believe In Your Religion inspite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the word of Allâh [the Taurât (Torah)], Then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?
• 76. and when they (Jews) meet those who believe (Muslims), they say, "We believe", but when they meet one another In private, they say, "Shall You (Jews) tell them (Muslims) what Allâh has revealed to You [Jews, about the description and the qualities of Prophet Muhammad Sal-Allaahu 'alayhe Wa Sallam , that which are written In the Taurât (Torah)] , that they (Muslims) may argue with You (Jews) about it before Your Lord?" have You (Jews) Then no understanding?
• 77. know they (Jews) not that Allâh knows what they conceal and what they reveal?
• 78. and there are AMONG them (Jews) unlettered people, who know not the Book, but they trust upon false desires and they but guess.

Now, when you see that being capitalised by me, will you include PAUL or not? Because he was a Jew, Hellenis and a Christian, or more precise to say that he was a Zindiqah(Hypocrite), these were the people who claimed themselves as BIBLE WRITERS, and they said that these books were from Allahu Ta'ala (Taurat and Injil).

Eventhough they weren't from Jew ethnicity, but they believed on the OT as ones of their religion scriptures, and that's also why there is so called "Judeo-Christian."

These people were Kafir and did not care about the facts that they were trading mercy with torture and guidance with falsehood.

This one is the verse for Paul and people like him:


QS.Al Baqarah(2):118 Say those without knowledge: "Why speaketh not Allah unto Us? Or why cometh not unto Us a sign?" So said the people before them words of similar import. Their hearts are alike. We have indeed made clear the signs unto any people who hold firmly to faith (in their hearts).


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh.

 

[doorster]

okay! Lets agree to disagree, you stick to your version and I shall stay with mine

Ma'asalaama