Hey [MENTION=38783]iqmdublin[/MENTION]
Nice to see you back!
Sorry for not replying sooner, I didn't know you replied!
''The Quran is the exact same even if it's passed down through "oral tradition"..which, actually, it wasn't. '' - ok, first of all its universally accepted it was written down years later. But leaving aside that point, it was written in ancient arabic, which most muslims dont even understand today, let alone the rest of the world. So there is a need for translation.
''IF there is proof that there's an older Bible that is very different than today's Bible, what implications would it have on the whole of Christianity? It would be a huge problem, so whether there is proof that it exists or not, it would never be brought to light that easily.'' - There are thousands of manuscripts containing the exact same message as the Bible today. Its not even questioned, except by muslims wishing to write off the Bible?
''Copying a Bible would cause a lot of mistakes, why? because no one has it memorized and there's different versions. If just getting the "gist" of the message is ok with you, then all power to you my friend. '' - It was a profession in ancient times to copy God's word (research the Masoretes), they didn't just count the words but counted the letters to make sure there was accurate copying of the original texts. This doesn't leave us with a 'gist', but incredibly accurate. The only difference between manuscripts that are thousands of years old and copies from today are minor spelling errors, such as coloured/colored. This is a common misconception among Muslims who haven't researched this point properly. I would fully accept that a 50% accutate copy isn't reliable, but when the copies are 99.9% accurate it is completely reliable.
Ancient Arabic?? The Arabic used in the Quran is actually considered the universal Arabic, so it's WIDELY used today.
Since the Quran has been memorized by young and old and people of various ethnicities and backgrounds, I'd say that even if it was never written down, it would still be alive and preserved. You would think that through oral tradition words could have been forgotten or replaced, but the method of the memorization preserves it in a remarkable way, of course Allah has made the Quran like this. It was memorized and written down during the time of the Prophet pbuh, but it wasn't compiled and put together til after his death.
There's 3 abrahamic faiths, the things that don't match up with the Quran in Christianity and Judaism is what we consider altered. If the original of the Bible was destroyed or was never preserved, and instead the version of today was the one that replaced it, then there's not going to be much evidence that it's been altered except when we compare our faiths. There are some similarities but there are huge differences, and it's those differences that show that there's been alterations done.
''What's the purpose of life then? Why not just be born into paradise? If you want god to have that strong of a hand in our lives, then there's no such thing as CHOICE. We're wouldn't be choosing His path, and life wouldn't be a test. '' - The purpose of life is to serve God and life a good life, enjoy his creations. How is having God's word in a language I can understand a bad thing? Does God wish us all to be scholars and study ancient Hebrew or ancient Arabic? Think about the practicality of that. We have accurate copies, we have accurate translations, BUT we have to spend years of study in order to read the original language even though it'll never reach our heart and it will always be a struggle to comprehend whats its saying?
There's no feeling like having the Quran (which we consider God's words) memorized by heart. I don't have to reach for the Quran to recite God's exact words. I can be anywhere at all and the way the words are put together are soothing to the soul. I don't know if that's something you can understand, but translations aren't God's word, they are other people's words. It's like Shakespeare..the modern translation of Shakespeare may mean the same thing, but what makes Shakespeare Shakespeare is the way he put words together, his poetry, the words he used. You don't get the same vibe reading the modern translation or "notes" as you would when you go back and read the actual way it was written in its original form. The Quran is kinda like that simply put. The brain comprehends it in a completely different way than the heart. It's not just a logical connection, it's an emotional one as well. It activates different senses. So yes we should study our religion in depth, because if we don't then we're only followers by name?
'Because God wasn't done with His message. The messages of all the prophets before Muhammed (pbuh) were to guide particular tribes/groups of people, only Islam was sent down for the entirety of mankind. And unlike in Christianity, in Islam, all of the prophets had the same message so no one contradicted the other. The people just wanted to follow their desires and change the religion for their own pleasures.'' - The message was complete in the first century? There was no need for anything additional? in fact in Galatians 1:8 it mentions that if any angel or anyone else is to declare something beyond what was already revealed - let him be accursed. Mohammed comes along 550 years later and re-writes everything? From Adam all the way to Jesus, Mohammed re-wrote his own version of history.
''Christianity adopted the concept of the trinity because they didn't want to leave their Pagan traditions. I actually learned this in an Art History class, actually, but you can search the significance of halos in art and their relation to paganism. '' - Mainstream false Christianity adopted the Trinity even though its not a Bible teaching. And sure, its roots are completely Pagan. Adherents to the Bibles message can clearly see that its not a Bible teaching and avoid it. Christians and Bible students have nothing to do with Catholicism for example or any other group that twists the word of God.
''In Islam, the story is different. It's basically ok there's a tribe doing a lot of wrong things, every tribe had a different issues. So Allah sends a messenger from among them to help guide them. As the population of the world grew, and different events took place, people get misguided again and commit atrocities, and messengers come in with the same message (to believe in the oneness of Allah) to fix the problems in these societies. The last message is the one for all of mankind and it was the same message as the previous ones, except this time it was preserved because the messaging has been completed. - This makes no sense at all? Sure, societies change, but God doesn't. His message was altered by Mohammed who claimed to be the Last Prophet, and who contradicted all the other Prophets before him?
Angels in Islam do not have choice like humans, so they can't disobey God, they're not created to have that ability at all. Humans on the other hand have desires and differences and will change things, so HUMANS changed God's word for their own pleasure..choosing what to keep and leave out. Nothing was rewritten differently, the message was always the same from Adam til Muhammed, which is the message of monotheism, and Muhammed's message does not contradict the messages of the prophets before him. Allah preserved the message of Islam as the final message, so that's why there hasn't been any prophet since Muhammed pbuh and also that's why it hasn't changed like the scriptures before.
It's interesting that you don't believe in what you call the "mainstream Christianity." I'd love to hear more about what you believe and why they're considered wrong.
''Ok, so according to your beliefs where does Hitler go?? Eternal paradise? How about rapists that do it for pleasure? Athiests who completely reject God and insult him..where do they go?? What about murderers? Politicians who wage wars for no reason? People who live in gluttony while their neighbors starve?? If someone doesn't get baptized and dies before that, what happens to them? Are they carrying the sins of everyone? Sorry but nothing about your concept of justice makes any sense. '' - As far as I understand God justice, it would seem that sinners of all varieties are going to be left in non-existance. The Bible speaks of a resurrection of both righteous and unrighteous (those who didn't serve God but maybe never had an opportunity), but in relation to wicked people, they receive no resurrection, and miss out on eternal life. So for me, I serve God and hope to be in paradise. My 3 brothers don't. I don't believe in God's justice they will be tortured for countless billions of years, burned alive for eternity, I have reason to believe they simply won't exist while those who serve God get to enjoy enternity.
If you can imagine someone being burned with fire for a minute, its pretty horrible. The idea of putting anyone in a fireplace or throwing them into a fire pit to die, its just such a horrible way to kill someone. But the idea that God would not only put his disobedient children in a fire, but keep them there suffering - not just the 30 seconds it would normally take to die, but countless billions of years.....its a pretty screwed up idea of Gods justice, and does not portray a God of love, who is fair and balanced.
If you want to keep asking questions or debating, it's no problem lol. Just be respectful about it. there's nothing wrong with inquiring and asking questions, its how we learn, right? '' - Have been studying the Bible my entire life actually, and have only recently finished reading the Quran. I've been studying Islam for a few years now to try to make sense of it. Thats why I'm here, just asking a few questions, not with the idea of insulting anybody, just to see how Muslims react to different questions.
It bothers me that very few have taken the time to investigate the Bible's authenticity, and instead lazily claim its been changed and Mohammed is the key to eternal life. Have you ever studied the Bible?
So a wrong doer can commit a lot of attrocities his entire life, basically making Earth his paradise, and you're saying the only punishment for him is nonexistance? Why would he even care about what he did if he doesn't believe that he will exist or suffer if he's already had all his fun? That's not justice.
I know it's difficult to think about your own family going to Hell because they don't believe in the same as what you believe in, but aren't you sugarcoating it? Matthew 25:46 speaks of eternal punishment, so in Christianity there is punishment for sins. Unless you believe otherwise, in which case tell me more, but that's what it says in the bible.
As Muslims we believe in hellfire and punishment, and we have to do everything we can to spread the message and help guide our brothers and sisters. God gave us rules and he sent us a prophet to show us how to live, and he gives us blessings everyday, so to reject all of that and slander him as so many people do, I think He will be very Just in the afterlife because he knows what's in their hearts and their deeds more than any other human. If you loved God, wouldn't you trust Him to be Just when punishing the wrong doers? To think that your brothers or anyone for that matter doesn't deserve something, you're only speaking through your emotions and what you see, but God sees more than you and I and so therefore no one will get anything less than they deserve.
I read the Bible a while ago, and when I'd ask questions about it (eg. the concept of original sin) no one really had clear answers or could answer them in a sufficient and logical way. Since you believe in a different version of christianity (nonmainstream) it will be nice to hear more about what you follow, and I wouldn't mind learning more about the differences between your beliefs and theirs.
The criteria for something to be from Allah, is that it has 0 contradictions, mistakes etc. 100% perfect, and it can not be replicated. The only book that can't be imitated is the Quran.
- Which contradictons do you mean? and sure, for a book to be from God you would want it to be accurate - The Quran isn't? Claims the earth is flat, and theres hundreds of contradictions which are excused as abbrogations, even though we don't know which one comes first or second.
The Bible accurately describes the earth as a sphere when others thought it was flat or held up by animals. The Bible speaks of the earth hanging upon nothing, not on someones shoulders or on pillars. And when it comes to science, its completely accurate?
If you're referring to the verse which says that the Earth is spread out like a carpet, then it doesn't contradict that the Earth is round. When I look at the earth it doesn't look round it looks flat and there's a vanishing point just like if you were to look at a laid out carpet. There could be more to that verse than we know, but there's nothing in the Quran that contradicts scientific evidence. Actually as more scientific discoveries are made, the Quran has confirmed them, such as that ants communicate with one another through sound when for the longest time scientest believed that ants communicated through scent, and the barrier between salt water and sweet water, and the pegs underneath mountains, etc.
Didn't the church burn people back in the day for claiming the Earth was round?
I'd like to know what scientific evidences you are referring to which are ruled out in the Quran, and which are accurate in the Bible.
