Qur'an and the Trinity

[Grace Seeker]

That is true ,the fact that neither you nor anyone else would understand it..
it is a mystery but been solved by the Quran !!
as the best way to solve this trinity mystery is not to understand what trinity is, but to understand what trinity isn't.

The Quran(and common sense too) tells what trinity isn't,but you and those alike prefer to live in such mystery...

You would not accept the testimony of an athiest in describing what God is or is not, because one who does not believe in God is incapable of describing a god or God that he is completely unfamiliar with.

Likewsie, since the Qur'an does not believe that any trinity exists, it is incapable of explaining what the trinity is for it knows it not. It can of course present its own opinion that there is no such thing. And you, believe that it is the word of God, can choose to accept it as true. But if something does not exist, then it cannot be described. Not even God can describe that which is not. Thus, beyond saying that the Trinity simply isn't, the Qur'an cannot speak with any degree of authority on the Trinity, for it knows nothing about it.

And it shows its ignorance regarding the trinity in that in those few places where it does address it, the trinity that the Qur'an says one is not to believe in is also something that Christians do not believe with regard to the trinity either. The Qur'an never once (I'll modify that to, never once that I can recall, for I haven't memorized the Qur'an) speaks with regard to the concept of Trinity that orthodox trinitarian Christians actually believe.

 

[Grace Seeker]

God is omniscient:

having and being fully aware of all knowledge of all things actual and possible from the infinitesimal to the infinite in every realm at all times. Acts 15:18: All His works are known to God from eternity. Psalm 139:16: Thine eyes did see mine unformed substance; And in thy book they were all written, Even the days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was none of them.1Jo 3:20 God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.

Jesus Not:

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father

Mark 11:12-14, 19-25

The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.

that is just a sample of the attributes of God that Jesus obviously lacked,proving your statement (all that is true of God is true of Jesus) to be false.....

Ah, you got me on that one. My mistake. I spoke too hastily.

Yes, Jesus was limited in these ways. IMO, he probably also was no more aware of the larger world, the size of the universe, or the properties of the atom than your typical 1st century Galilean peasant.

If according to the trinitarians Jesus and God are from the same material then God dwelled literally in Jesus....

But of course God is not made out of matter at all. The "substance" of God, the Greeks used the word "essence" is, according to Jesus, spirit (John 4:24).

 

[Imam]

Likewsie, since the Qur'an does not believe that any trinity exists

Correction,
The Quran believes that its components exist (yhwh or Allah,Jesus,The holy spirit) but such components don't make one God..

in other words,It believes its slogan (one God ,which cover the three gods therein )exists but only in the mind of trinitarians..

the Qur'an cannot speak with any degree of authority on the Trinity, for it knows nothing about it.

The Quran has all the authority not only on the trinity but the whole biblical structure as long as It is proved to be divine,miracelous,inerrant ,the bible not.

when it comes to the trinity ,such hopeless muddle that only to be taken on pure faith,whose almost all adovocates ready with the word (mystery beyond human comprehension) whenever to be critisized, the trinty is not above criticism not only from the Quran but also from the whole non-christian world including the non-trinitarians christians as well....

The Qur'an never once speaks with regard to the concept of Trinity that orthodox trinitarian Christians actually believe.

which un-orthodox trinity the Quran is talking about?

It seems ,you want to take your turn after, Follower

but this time you need some documentation to do better than him....

It would be amazing if you provide me internal(Quranic) or external(common traditions surrounding the author of the Quran) evidence to support the argument that the Quran condemns other trinity than the one believed by the christians who lived in and by Mecca during the time of Mohamed (pbuh) .

 

[Follower]

OK imam - you have me convinced the Quran is saying that the Trinity is Mary, Jesus and GOD.

We see the command from the Quran to not say three in this verse- So who are the three and what are the three?

4:171
You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on God except the truth , but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son God's messenger and His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with God, and His messengers, and do not say: "Three." Stop best for you, but God one God, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what in the skies/space and what in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with God guardian/protector.

We don't know until this verse that it is three gods we aren't to speak about and they are Mary, Jesus and GOD:

5:116
And when God said: "You Jesus Mary's son, did you say to the people 'Take me and my mother two gods from other than God?' He said: 'Your praise/glory, is not to be for me that I say what is not for me with right/truth, if I was said it, so You had known it, You know what in my self, and I do not know what in Your self, that You, You all knower the unseens/hidden.'"

 

[Grace Seeker]

which un-orthodox trinity the Quran is talking about?

It seems ,you want to take your turn after, Follower

but this time you need some documentation to do better than him....

It would be amazing if you provide me internal(Quranic) or external(common traditions surrounding the author of the Quran) evidence to support the argument that the Quran condemns other trinity than the one believed by the christians who lived in and by Mecca during the time of Mohamed (pbuh) .

You show me the passages in which you think the Qur'an is speaking about the Trinity that we Christians actually believe in and I'll show you those that do not speak of the Trinity that we believe in. They are the very same passages, for I haven't seen a good description of the Trinity in the Qur'an.

(Now, admittedly, as I've said before, I haven't memorized the Qur'an and may not be recalling something correctly. So, I could be wrong. But if I am, I would actually like you to show me. Not because I am daring you to show me up. But because I would like to find those passages so that I can better understand what it is that you believe that I don't -- or maybe in this case I should say that I believe that you don't.)

Anyway, it is true I have not seen a good description of the Trinity in the Qur'an. It is only the passages like those that Follower is pointing out where I find mention of any sort of trinity at all. And you know that Follower is right, we Christians don't believe in a trinity of Mary, God, and Jesus. But you and I also both know that this was not written as a reference to the Trinity that Christians actually believe, and only poor commentators have made that unnessecary link. So, where in the Qur'an does it speak of the Trinity that orthodox trinitarian Christians do believe in? I don't recall ever seeing it.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Imam, I just found this posted on another thread:

While the Quran does condemn both trinitarianism (the Quran 4:171; 5:73)[2] and the worship of Jesus and his mother Mary (the Quran 5:116)[3], nowhere does it identify the actual three components of the Christian Trinity.

You will note that Abd-al Latif makes the same point that I did: nowhere does the Qur'an identify what it is that is the Christian Trinity. The Qur'an doesn't actually discuss what it is that we believe. But it does say that one should not say "Three." And you will note that not one Christian on here ever says that we believe in Three. No we claim to believe basically what the Qur'an confirms -- read it with new eyes for yourself rather than the interpretation passed down to you from others:
"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word..." As I understand it if a person is referred to as "a word" from Allah, it means that he is a Messenger or a Prophet of Allah and Jesus does fulfill that role. But to say "a word" of Allah means that he is himself a message of Allah, and not just a messenger. Notice that here in 4:171 Jesus is both.


The text continues, "The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him." Is this text not saying that the Messiah, Jesus, is a spirit from Allah? I can't see how it can be read any other way. Yet, we know that Jesus was a mortal being of flesh and blood. So, how can it be that Jesus is a spirit? This would make Jesus both human and spirit. It would mean that he has two natures. And again, this is exactly what Christians have said all along.


So the only thing we have left to find in the Qur'an that is an essential teaching of Christianity is that when we refer to God and Jesus and the spirit that we are NOT talking about three. And if we complete the thought in the verse in question it makes that very statement: "So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not 'Three'."

Notice again, the Qur'an actually tells you not just to believe in Allah, but also in his messengers. And these messengers have just been identified for you in the verse as Jesus and his spirit. Believe in them. Not just believe in the message they brought. But actually believe in them, themselves. However, a word of caution when you do this, don't say "Three!" for we are not believing in three. No, in harmony with orthodox Christian teaching, Muslims are asked to believe that though we believe in God and in Jesus and in the Spirit - Allah is only One God. So, if any are saying that they are three, they should, according to 4:171 at least, cease doing so, for there is only one God whom we worship be we Christian or Muslim. Nothing could be more trinitarian than that.

 

[GreyKode]

So the only thing we have left to find in the Qur'an that is an essential teaching of Christianity is that when we refer to God and Jesus and the spirit that we are NOT talking about three. And if we complete the through in the verse in question it makes that very statement: "So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not 'Three'."

How do you interpret his messengers to include the holy spirit?
Even if you do so, the the three that you identified here supposedly ALLAH, Jesus Holy spirit are obviously distinct/separate/different unlike the trinity.

Is this the teaching of christianity? Don't you say that Jesus is GOD/part of the trinity/Co-equal to GOD?

Are you aware of this verse
"They have blasphemed those who say the messiah is ALLAH"

 

[islamdunk.123]

[The text continues, "The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him." Is this text not saying that the Messiah, Jesus, is a spirit from Allah? I can't see how it can be read any other way. Yet, we know that Jesus was a mortal being of flesh and blood. So, how can it be that Jesus is a spirit? This would make Jesus both human and spirit. It would mean that he has two natures. And again, this is exactly what Christians have said all along.
]

That is an excellent point to bring up, brother. The following is a video of Zakir Naik, a scholar, supplimenting your argument:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHgKhxc73Zo&feature=related

 

[Grace Seeker]

How do you interpret his messengers to include the holy spirit?

"The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him."

So, Jesus is a spirit from Allah. How many spirits come from Allah?

And was it not by this spirit that Jesus (and Muhammad too) received the Gospel that they were to share with people? So, surely the spirit is a messenger.

Is this the teaching of christianity? Don't you say that Jesus is GOD/part of the trinity/Co-equal to GOD?

And, No. Not exactly.

 

[wth1257]

Likewsie, since the Qur'an does not believe that any trinity exists, it is incapable of explaining what the trinity is for it knows it not. It can of course present its own opinion that there is no such thing. And you, believe that it is the word of God, can choose to accept it as true. But if something does not exist, then it cannot be described. Not even God can describe that which is not. Thus, beyond saying that the Trinity simply isn't, the Qur'an cannot speak with any degree of authority on the Trinity, for it knows nothing about it.

That just is non-sense.

I don't know exactly where to start except to ask how you explain the substantial scientific investigations and descriptions of phlogiston?

the concept of Trinity that orthodox trinitarian Christians actually believe.

I know some Islamic thinkers state the the Qur'anic rebukes are to specific local Christian sects and not Christians in general.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I know some Islamic thinkers state the the Qur'anic rebukes are to specific local Christian sects and not Christians in general.

If true, that would fit much better with my interpretation of 4:171, above. I do know that Nestorian Christians were criticized because they so emphasized the distinctiveness of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and the subjugation of the Son and the Spirit to the Father that they treated them as if they were three different beings and were tri-theistic rather than true trinitarians. Though as an organized sect Nestorians had ceased to function by the time of Muhammed, Nestorianism and some of the ideas they espoused still live on even to this day. It is hightly probably that in his travels Muhammad might have run into some of the decendants of these folk who had migrated to the southern end of the Arabian pennisula centuries before. He would be quite right in telling them to cease saying "three," for that is one of the biggest reasons that orthodox Christianity saw (and continues to see) Nestorianism as a heresy.

 

[Imam]

You will note that Abd-al Latif makes the same point that I did: nowhere does the Qur'an identify what it is that is the Christian Trinity.

If the verse tells christians to stop saying three,and it is not a scientific discovery to know which three the trinitarians say,and no other Quranic verse identifies the three as other three,then your point is irrelevant ...

what other three the word refers to,if not the trinity?!
what are you looking for?!

The Qur'an doesn't actually discuss what it is that we believe. .

The Quran discuss what you believe in better terms ....
what is the best trinitarians ever offered to discuss their believe in the trinity?

A word (It is a mystery)..

The quran discussed the trinity,putting its members each in his right position

1-Its first person(mask) ,is put in his right position ,from mere a mask according to trinitarians to the only divine being,who has no persons shares him fully in this so called trinitarians Godhead.

2-its second person was put in his right prophetic chair,no more and no less.

3-its third person such great strong angel..


the trinity is discussed in the quran and in terms makes more sense than that of trinitarians....

If you want to learn something about the trinity,read the quran ..better than reading the stupid Nicene Creed,which teaches man nothing.

But it does say that one should not say "Three." And you will note that not one Christian on here ever says that we believe in Three. .

Christians never say three?!!!
christians say three as long as you able to count

God the father
God the son
God the holy spirit

The quran tells that Christians say three

(and say not, Three).

and Christians say three

God the father
God the son
God the holy spirit

whatever you would call such three eg,persons,masks etc.... is not the point.
The point is that the Quran does refer to some formula the Christians would claim to have 3 components ....It doesn't require great deal of wisdom to realize what is it ...
you can argue that you don't believe in three gods,but you wouldn't claim you never say three.


Quran 4:171
So believe in God and His messengers and don't say three, stop, that is better for you - God is only one God.


the message of the verse is very clear:

If you know that God is only one God
then stop saying three.


or may be you would prefer the text :

Quran 4:171
So believe in God and His messengers and don't say three persons, stop, that is better for you - God is only one God.


If the text like that we would find persons who argue ...no no

we think that better if it says
don't say three masks.

others would prefer

don't say three manifestations .

the Quran closed the door on their faces and told them saying three in any form you wish(persons,manifestations,masks) is to be condemned and violates the basics of true monotheism...

The Quran not only affirms that the concept of triune God is false,but also ,for the sake of argument,if the idea of triune God to be imagined,it would never be the Christian formula ,as the quran clearly affirms that Jesus is not God or a person of any trinity of any kind,the same case with the holy spirit..

you may argue that it is still ok to say three divine persons and yet claiming true monotheist etc...
well as you wish, but you got the Quranic warning ,take it or leave it..

To be continued

peace

 

[Grace Seeker]

what other three the word refers to,if not the trinity?!
what are you looking for?!

Again, you simply don't get what it means to say "Trinity".


To say trinity is NOT the equivalence of saying "Three". I see the trinity speaking of the unity of God, and therefore, properly understood, it speaks of God's Oneness.

Note that when in the Qur'an it says:
"So believe in God and His messengers and don't say three, stop, that is better for you - God is only one God."
that is doesn't name Christians as being the ones who say "three".

Now if you were to suggest that there were some Christians who did this, as I indicated above, I would agree that there was a group of Nestorian Christians who did this, and their descendants where still around at the time of Muhammad (some are still around even now) and he might have been referring to them. But he isn't referring to orthodox trinitarian Christianity.

You can count and add all you want, but that doesn't make it so. The orthodox Christian understanding of trinity is that there is one and only one God. To say God the father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit is not to speak of three beings, but one. You either accept this or you don't, but that is the reality.

Quran 4:171
So believe in God and His messengers and don't say three persons, stop, that is better for you - God is only one God.


If the text like that we would find persons who argue ...no no

we think that better if it says
don't say three masks.

others would prefer

don't say three manifestations .

the Quran closed the door on their faces and told them saying three in any form you wish(persons,manifestations,masks) is to be condemned and violates the basics of true monotheism...

But the Qur'an itself doesn't actually use the word "persons" or "masks" or "manifestations" or anything else. You are the one inserting those terms, not the Qur'an.

The Quran not only affirms that the concept of triune God is false,but also ,for the sake of argument,if the idea of triune God to be imagined,it would never be the Christian formula ,as the quran clearly affirms that Jesus is not God or a person of any trinity of any kind,the same case with the holy spirit..

Not so. Please find me where in the Qur'an it makes any declaration at all about the nature of the triune God. It doesn't. It says, "don't say 'three'." But the triune God is not three; the triune God is one. You want to emphasize the "tri-" portion because that matches your preconceived notions, but we are more interested in the "-unity" of God's triuneness.


If you continue to assert that 4:171 is referring to is the Christian concept of God then you are left with one of two options, neither of which do I expect you to appreciate, but they are all that remains.

Either
1) you misunderstand the Qur'an, for you assume it refers to orthodox trinitarian Christianity when it really is referring to something else
or
2) the Qur'an itself is wrong in suggesting that Christians say "Three." That is not our understanding of what we are saying. And we who are Christians get to be the ones who define our faith.


Non-Christians (not even the Qur'an) don't get to tell us what it is that we believe, we do.

 

[Imam]

such argument is typical of one Nazi guy who would believe in the peaceful Nazism ideology!, and one day after listening to a speech of Hitler that filled with his threats of attacks and war ,after all that he concluded his speech that all that he does is for peace and his ideology is peaceful!!! ..

The man goes ahead and as Grace-seeker says:

To say trinity is NOT the equivalence of saying "Three". I see the trinity speaking of the unity of God, and therefore, properly understood, it speaks of God's Oneness..

The man typically argues:


To say Nazism is NOT the equivalence of saying "war and intolerance". I see Nazism speaking of peace, and therefore, properly understood, it speaks of peace.


and as Grace-seeker blames me :

You want to emphasize the "tri-" portion because that matches your preconceived notions, but we are more interested in the "-unity" of God's triuneness..

the man blames:

You want to emphasize the "war-" portion because that matches your preconceived notions, but we are more interested in the "peace" words that our leader Hitler concluded the speech with !!!!

Now if you were to suggest that there were some Christians who did this, as I indicated above, I would agree that there was a group of Nestorian Christians who did this

Look how many problems with such understanding:

Anyone who would say three(trinity) whether the so called orthodox trinitarians ,Nestorians, orthodox Ethiopians,copts, Najran Yemeni Christians(whom the prophet discussed with them face to face) , is to be condemned.....

you try to resort to the Nestorians issue to white washing the so called orthodox trinitarians, unfortunately both Orthodox and Nestorians are 2 faces of the same coin .....

Just one say three while talking about God's nature ,and be condemned immediately ,no matter if he thinks that the two individual natures of Christ, the human and the divine, are joined in conjunction ("synapheia") or in hypostatic union..

Jesus isn’t God or divine in the Quran ,there wasn’t anytime that he had a divinity joined in conjunction with his humanity nor there was a time a divinity joined his humanity in hypostatic union…….


No way for the so called orthodox trinity to be skipped from the criticism

5:72 “They do blaspheme who say: “Christ the son of Mary is God .”

If you continue arguing that the verse may be directed at so called unorthodox cult ,I can live with that .....

but I have showed you where your so called orthodox group is condemned.... Or may be you gonna argue next time that the believe that Jesus is God is a cult hearsay?

we who are Christians get to be the ones who define our faith.

And we who criticize how you define your faith ,just as Nazism though had peace slogans still to be criticized for being intolerant,aggressive

typically the same trinity,though has monotheistic slogan still to be condemned in terms of true monotheism ....


well,I think nothing more to be said in the issue which I call the backdoor issue (the trinity),anything more will be nothing but repeating and circular reasoning...

well ,that was my last post here ...


more on the trinity,
http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...-same-substance-god-he-crea-2.html#post861698

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/134279215-let-me-see-if-i-have-right-2.html


peace and best wishes for all ....

 

[Grace Seeker]

Jesus isn’t God or divine in the Quran ,there wasn’t anytime that he had a divinity joined in conjunction with his humanity nor there was a time a divinity joined his humanity in hypostatic union…….


No way for the so called orthodox trinity to be skipped from the criticism

5:72 “They do blaspheme who say: “Christ the son of Mary is God .”


If you continue arguing that the verse may be directed at so called unorthodox cult ,I can live with that .....

but I have showed you where your so called orthodox group is condemned.... Or may be you gonna argue next time that the believe that Jesus is God is a cult hearsay?

I would agree with your assessment that Christianity is condemned in the Qur'an because it equates Jesus with God (though you may have trouble convincing brother Grenville that the Bible teaches this). And though you didn't quite accept my argument that 4:171 isn't properly directed at orthodox trinitarian Christianity, I can live with what you can live with on that issue.




A side point -- I try not to make parallels between Islam and groups that I don't think are fair comparisons (i.e. Nazis). Christianity abhors what Nazism was about just as much as Islam abhors what Al-Qeida is about. The difference is that, to the best of my knowledge, the Nazis never claimed that what they did they did in the name of Christianity nor shout praise to God while doing their horrific acts. I don't believe that you really think that Nazism and Christianity can be compared; so please don't.