Refused on plane due to Isis or Quran Tattoo....

[abumuslim82]

Salaam all Muslims,

This is only one incident, in the past year so many muslims have been asked to get off airplanes before take off, in some instances it was families with small kids.

inshaALLAH victory is on its way for the ummah of Rasulullah SAW.

oh ALLAH, please give the Muslims victory, ameen ameen ameen.

 

[muslimah_B]

I feel something odd in this case. If someone has tattoo of ISIS flag, he would not show it because he must be know the risk. Probably that tattoo is just a logo with Arabic letter that not relate to Qur'an verse.

Isis flag is the shahada

As to why someone would have a tatoo with Quran on them is beyond me [emoji15]

 

[muslimah_B]

When Muslims get discriminated, it would actually be an opportunity for entrepreneurs to start a Muslim-specific and Muslim-friendly service. In fact, people should see these occurrences as opportunities instead of problems. Every problem is actually an opportunity to solve it. I wonder what it would take to start an airline? You would not need to buy airplanes, because you could just lease them. Such lease may of course NOT be riba/interest-infested. Concerning the staff, I would actually try to hire Muslim flight attendants, wearing headscarves and hijab. Of course, it would only serve halal food and no alcohol whatsoever.

By the way, it could make sense to organize the seating that the men are sitting on the right, and women and children on the left of the plane? Instead of "indiscriminately mixing"? I suspect that this should be investigated in terms of requirements for a real Islamic service. I somehow suspect that the typical seating in airplanes nowadays may actually not be halal, but I am not completely sure about that.

How about "Quranic Airlines"? Would that be an acceptable name? I guess I would also have to ask the ulema to weigh in on that, because you'd never know. Maybe another name would be better? You see, what Richard Branson did with Virgin Airlines is not impossible. By making everything halal in and around the airline, you would automatically get lots of passengers of Islamic extraction who would openly prefer your service. Achieving this would be much harder for non-Muslim entrepreneurs, because they would not be able to count on a captive market. Therefore, it would be much easier for "Quranic Airlines" than it was for "Virgin Airlines" to snowball beyond the miminum critical mass of passengers and flights needed to make the service financially viable. I think that there are lots of opportunities to halalize particular products or services, and automatically feed from a relatively large captive market that actually desires halalized products and services. Of course, given the fact that Muslims are the home audience for such service, they would not need to worry about discrimination at all. That would be another plus, of course.

Thats a really good idea, i think it would be extremely helpfull, not just for muslims but also christian & jewish believers who wish to be segregated, away from alcohol & haram meat & would prefer a more peacefull environment than being around drunk people.

The thing is, if we are going to have segregated sections, i think we would need areas for husband & wives & for families, some people find flying quite terrifying so being seperated from family/husband could make the flight more uncomfortable for them.
We could make use of booth type seats where they face eachother & on the aisle theres a curtain to give them privacy & also seperates the brothers side & sisters side

We also have to think about the destinations the planes would go aswell, what size airplanes, the prices of tickets, wether to include economy, business class, 1st class or have them all the same, what food to serve, entertainment for long haul flights, if enough space for prayer, etc etc etc

Right whos gonna buy us an islamic airline

 

[Snow]

Wonderful idea! Hopefully some one will follow it asap.

One thing going bothers me, why do flight attendants need to be females? There can be bearded flight attendants too ?

I fly fairly regularly and the male ones are pretty common.
Even ones with beards haha.

 

[kritikvernunft]

Right whos gonna buy us an islamic airline

It would need some initial seed capital to start, but that can to an important extent be solved using crowdfunding. The two top crowdfunding sites, www.gofundme.com, and kickstarter.com managed to collect 470 and 444 million USD from the public in general.

The BBC has researched exactly the issue of how much total capital it would take to do it. They are talking about as little as £5.5m ($10m). Others say that even that figure is a little high.

Therefore, this project could stretch the funding capacity of the existing crowdfunding platforms a bit, but it may still be possible. Not sure. We would need an insane amount of word-of-mouth in the Islamic community to get lots of individuals to part with $50-$250 each or so, and get the project actually funded.

It would be useful -- but not an absolute requirement -- to get 3 to 5 larger core shareholders who would own at least half a million dollars each in the airline. There are obviously enough Muslims who would have that kind of spare change, if the plan sounds credible. It would bring a bit of stability to the board. Otherwise, there is the risk that the board would be too unstable with people incessantly moving and in and out. That is not good.

One possibility is to make use of something like the StartupBoeing service. They insist on the following plan documents for a new airline:

1. BRAND & NICHE: Analysis of the market and competition, Brand positioning, Description of the business and opportunity, Brand development
2. CAPITAL: Pro forma financial statements/projections, Capitalization plan
3. RISK: Discussion of risks and obstacles
4. PEOPLE: Management team biographies
5. DOING IT: Details about the operation, Implementation strategy

If Boeing has an airline startup service, you can safely assume that Airbus has one too, and would be asking the same questions about the project plan.

Concerning BRAND & NICHE, I think a lot of people would agree that the Western European Muslim population is sufficiently large to form a credible core home audience for a new airline. If the airline is staunchly halal, I think that you should be able to count on this audience, on the condition that everything else is comparable to other airlines: security, price, service, reach, and so on.

Concerning CAPITAL, I somehow suspect that between half a million and one million dollar in initial crowdfunding pledges would attract larger investors and fill up the remaining capital requirements.

The main problem will be to find PEOPLE with credibility at the executive level of the airline industry, preferably people of Islamic extraction. It would be a bit weird to use non-Muslims as champions for a project that has strong religious undertones. It would almost be like non-Muslims starting a mosque. In my impression, it will require to poach executives somehow from existing airlines such as Qatar or Emirates. In fact, it does not need to be done in a hostile way. These other airlines may even agree to this, if people talk them into doing that. They may even see it as an opportunity to partner up in other ways.

Therefore, the first step would be to onboard people with credibility -- in any field actually -- in something like a Western European Islamic Airline Construction Organization, WEIACO, which would be some kind of Decentralized Autonomous Organization similar to the original DAO. We would need Muslim people from all walks of life to join this organization and help giving critical mass and credibility to the plan. In the DAO, it is much more about head count than about money/capital. It is obviously the head count itself that will attract the money/capital.

In the DAO, we do not need people to bring money, but bring enthusiasm and their belief that this would be a good thing. They would really have to come online to the project in large numbers. If we fail to mobilize interest and gather head count, we would not stand a chance at the other parts either.

A heavily-populated DAO would automatically attract PEOPLE and CAPITAL, and validate the BRAND & NICHE.

In other words, we need some kind of organized discussion forum like this one, where people would regularly log on to tell other people that they have made dua for this airline to materialize out of the fricking blue. As you can imagine, it is obviously our Beloved Master, Allah himself, who would start directing interesting resources to the WEIACO, on grounds of hearing so much dua for it, and on the condition that our most Beloved Master also believes that it is a good idea, of course. But then again, we will never know, if we do not try it out. It is clear that it will only work, if it is the One God himself who endorses the idea.

So, my point of view is that it is a requirement to gain the ability to brag about how many people are member of the WEIACO in order to get the next steps going, that is, to attract CAPITAL and PEOPLE, to a project of which everybody would be able to see that it is obviously serious, if only, in terms of head count and number of members. So, we need to start the WEIACO discussion forum first.

 

[muslimah_B]

It would need some initial seed capital to start, but that can to an important extent be solved using crowdfunding. The two top crowdfunding sites, www.gofundme.com, and kickstarter.com managed to collect 470 and 444 million USD from the public in general.

The BBC has researched exactly the issue of how much total capital it would take to do it. They are talking about as little as £5.5m ($10m). Others say that even that figure is a little high.

Therefore, this project could stretch the funding capacity of the existing crowdfunding platforms a bit, but it may still be possible. Not sure. We would need an insane amount of word-of-mouth in the Islamic community to get lots of individuals to part with $50-$250 each or so, and get the project actually funded.

It would be useful -- but not an absolute requirement -- to get 3 to 5 larger core shareholders who would own at least half a million dollars each in the airline. There are obviously enough Muslims who would have that kind of spare change, if the plan sounds credible. It would bring a bit of stability to the board. Otherwise, there is the risk that the board would be too unstable with people incessantly moving and in and out. That is not good.

One possibility is to make use of something like the StartupBoeing service. They insist on the following plan documents for a new airline:

1. BRAND & NICHE: Analysis of the market and competition, Brand positioning, Description of the business and opportunity, Brand development
2. CAPITAL: Pro forma financial statements/projections, Capitalization plan
3. RISK: Discussion of risks and obstacles
4. PEOPLE: Management team biographies
5. DOING IT: Details about the operation, Implementation strategy

If Boeing has an airline startup service, you can safely assume that Airbus has one too, and would be asking the same questions about the project plan.

Concerning BRAND & NICHE, I think a lot of people would agree that the Western European Muslim population is sufficiently large to form a credible core home audience for a new airline. If the airline is staunchly halal, I think that you should be able to count on this audience, on the condition that everything else is comparable to other airlines: security, price, service, reach, and so on.

Concerning CAPITAL, I somehow suspect that between half a million and one million dollar in initial crowdfunding pledges would attract larger investors and fill up the remaining capital requirements.

The main problem will be to find PEOPLE with credibility at the executive level of the airline industry, preferably people of Islamic extraction. It would be a bit weird to use non-Muslims as champions for a project that has strong religious undertones. It would almost be like non-Muslims starting a mosque. In my impression, it will require to poach executives somehow from existing airlines such as Qatar or Emirates. In fact, it does not need to be done in a hostile way. These other airlines may even agree to this, if people talk them into doing that. They may even see it as an opportunity to partner up in other ways.

Therefore, the first step would be to onboard people with credibility -- in any field actually -- in something like a Western European Islamic Airline Construction Organization, WEIACO, which would be some kind of Decentralized Autonomous Organization similar to the original DAO. We would need Muslim people from all walks of life to join this organization and help giving critical mass and credibility to the plan. In the DAO, it is much more about head count than about money/capital. It is obviously the head count itself that will attract the money/capital.

In the DAO, we do not need people to bring money, but bring enthusiasm and their belief that this would be a good thing. They would really have to come online to the project in large numbers. If we fail to mobilize interest and gather head count, we would not stand a chance at the other parts either.

A heavily-populated DAO would automatically attract PEOPLE and CAPITAL, and validate the BRAND & NICHE.

In other words, we need some kind of organized discussion forum like this one, where people would regularly log on to tell other people that they have made dua for this airline to materialize out of the fricking blue. As you can imagine, it is obviously our Beloved Master, Allah himself, who would start directing interesting resources to the WEIACO, on grounds of hearing so much dua for it, and on the condition that our most Beloved Master also believes that it is a good idea, of course. But then again, we will never know, if we do not try it out. It is clear that it will only work, if it is the One God himself who endorses the idea.

So, my point of view is that it is a requirement to gain the ability to brag about how many people are member of the WEIACO in order to get the next steps going, that is, to attract CAPITAL and PEOPLE, to a project of which everybody would be able to see that it is obviously serious, if only, in terms of head count and number of members. So, we need to start the WEIACO discussion forum first.

What if we was to make a survery/questionaire and see if people would be interested/willing to use the service and even put their own money foward as a donation to get the idea across.
And from that we can gather the types of people who would be interested, ie
what country they are from
Where they would travel to
Would they use this service
What would they expect
What would they like
Would they donate towards it
Would they pay more money for these types of seats
How would they feel about a fully islamic airline
Etc etc etc

questions like this to see where the idea stands, if the idea can move beyond being an idea and move onto paper and plans and lots of writing, etc etc
I mean we cant start anything unless we know there are people who want or are demanding such a service, without demand there would be no customers and no customers means no money

(Id leave the writing to you though, )

(Sorry i cant think properly my brain is fuzzled)

 

[kritikvernunft]

What if we was to make a survery/questionaire and see if people would be interested/willing to use the service ...

A survey as a method would possibly fail in terms of Islamic purity. We would be using methods that are not particularly Islamically accredited. The scriptures recommend dua, that is, supplications.

and even put their own money forward as a donation to get the idea across.

We would be mixing charity and alms with for-profit business. That also sounds too much like a no-go zone. We must be utterly careful in how to handle any monies. We have no infrastructure -- certainly not initially -- to account in detail or allow members to inspect what is going on with their funds. We would need that infrastructure first. But then again, we need members. Otherwise, there would be no point in setting up that kind of infrastructure.

And from that we can gather the types of people who would be interested, ie what country they are from, Where they would travel to, Would they use this service, What would they expect, What would they like, Would they pay more money for these types of seats, How would they feel about a fully islamic airline, Etc etc etc

It almost looks like that this cannot be done without severely infringing on the privacy of these people. I can see great dangers in going down that road. Formally collecting data on people is something NOT to do when you can avoid doing it. We have had extreme issues over the last two decades with collecting data, privacy, and abuse of honeypots of information. In my impression, it is not even needed to ask people this kind of things ...

Questions like this to see where the idea stands, if the idea can move beyond being an idea and move onto paper and plans and lots of writing, etc etc I mean we cant start anything unless we know there are people who want or are demanding such a service, without demand there would be no customers and no customers means no money (Id leave the writing to you though, )

The accredited mechanism in Islam to desire something is dua. This is the theme and the method that we must use. If people start collectively expressing dua, and their desire is legitimate and feasible, it will unstoppably become a self-fulling prophecy.

From standard Game Theory, you can easily derive that when you describe the self-countering n-tuple to the players, and the players believe you, that they will feel the urge to enter this self-countering n-tuple, which will then automatically materialize as a Nash equilibrium in reality. This airline will materialize out of the fricking blue simply because enough people staunchly believe that it will.

They will only staunchly believe that it will, because they staunchly believe that Allah endorses the idea, and that this plan is in accordance with the will of our Beloved Master.

On paper it looks easy enough to do, but in the real world you will see almost insurmountably obstacles arise. It will take insane amounts of will power to overcome these obstacles. Therefore, if the plan is not tied to firm belief and deep motivation, the whole thing will simply fail to pan out. Hence, if the plan does not galvanize existing Islamic beliefs, it may not work. It is the deep desire, the incessant supplications, the dua itself, that will unstoppably force this game-theoretical equilibrium into reality.

Every real-world manager can tell you concerning his staff that motivation is key. What is motivation else than belief? If people truly believe, it will work. If they don't, it won't. So, everything must revolve around belief. That is why it all has to revolve around dua.

 

[Serinity]

An Islamic Airline would be amazing.

All we need are some specialists in managing a plane, fueling it with fuel, and repairing it, maintaining it, piloting it.

And Allah :swt: knows best.

 

[kritikvernunft]

All we need are some specialists ...

These specialist will automatically be attracted by a large number of people who badly want and desire such airline, even to the point that these believers are making dua for it to the One God.

It is obviously the aggregate belief itself that the desired statement (a=b) should become true that will automatically cause the decrease in the gap (a-b)² between the desired situation (=a) and the situation in reality (=b).

Therefore, all you need to prove is that you can get a large enough number of believers to make dua for this.

As I have said before, Islam is as much a goal as an instrument to attain that goal.
Therefore, you will simply need to make use of the instrument in order to attain the goal.
If you really do that, what you want, will simply unstoppably happen.

 

[Serinity]

All I need is to rely on Allah alone, and do my best. If I make dua all day and do nothing, then Allah :swt: won't grant that dua.. afaik.

So one makes dua and relies on Allah, and then one does their effort, and instead of thinking of the end result, one does his best, leaving the results to Allah.

you make no sense, no offence. Idk what those fancy math statements are. But I disagree. so you are saying if I believe I can fly, that by just doing dua, I will get to fly? Nah. Just because someone believes something is true, doesn't make it true, or reaity.

Things won't always go the way we want it to go anyway. I respectfully disagree with your hypothesis tho. for you everything is just beliefs, nothing is certain in your world.

and if I believe I can succeed, my reliance is not on any fancy math, rather it is on Allah. Everything is decreed and willed by Allah.

 

[kritikvernunft]

Idk what those fancy math statements are. But I disagree. so you are saying if I believe I can fly, that by just doing dua, I will get to fly? Nah. Just because someone believes something is true, doesn't make it true, or reaity. Things won't always go the way we want it to go anyway. I respectfully disagree with your hypothesis tho. for you everything is just beliefs, nothing is certain in your world.

Look at this. John Nash published literally just this paragraph in 1950 and he received the Nobel prize for it in 1994:

JOURNAL OF MATHEMATICS, VOL.36, 1950, EQUILIBRIUM POINTS IN N-PERSON GAMES, By JOHN F. NASH, JR., PRINCETON UNIVERSITY

One may define a concept of an n-person game in which each player has a finite set of pure strategies and in which a definite set of payments to the n players corresponds to each n-tuple of pure strategies, one strategy being taken for each player. For mixed strategies, which are probability distributions over the pure strategies, the pay-off functions are the expectations of the players, thus becoming polylinear forms in the probabilities with which the various players play their various pure strategies. Any n-tuple of strategies, one for each player, may be regarded as a point in the product space obtained by multiplying the n-strategy spaces of the players. One such n-tuple counters another if the strategy of each player in the countering n-tuple yields the highest obtainable expectation for its player against, the n-1 strategies of the other players in the countered n-tuple. A self-countering n-tuple is called an equilibrium point. The correspondence of each n-tuple with its set of countering n-tuples gives a one-to-many mapping of the product space into itself. From the definition of countering we see that the set of countering points of a point is convex. By using the continuity of the pay-off functions we see that the graph of the mapping is closed. The closedness is equivalent to saying: if Pi, P2, ... and Qi, Q2, .... Qn, ... are sequences of points in the product space where Qn->Q,Pn->P and Qn counters Pn then Q counters P. Since the graph is closed and since the image of each point under the mapping is convex, we infer from Kakutani's theorem that the mapping has a fixed point (i.e., point contained in its image). Hence there is an equilibrium point.

That paragraph has pushed John Nash into the all-time top five for mathematics.

Through Kakutani's theorem it chains all the way back to the fundamental axioms of number theory.

I just make use of this theorem, to claim that if you describe your project plan to the players, as an equilibrium point for the associated game, and the players believe you, that the players will automatically jump into the Nash equilibrium, and hence materialize the project into reality out of the fricking blue. Of course, the beliefs of the players must obviously be highly compatible with the belief in that what powers reality itself, summarized by the belief in the One God, the very creator of this reality.

You can add a twist to this process. It will be part of the game itself to further seek to describe the equilibrium point. It is therefore, the game itself that will describe what the game should be, pretty much guaranteeing that the description required of the equilibrium point of the game will materialize from the game itself. Therefore, all that is left to feed as an input into the process, is the belief itself by the players, that the game will materialize the object desired, into reality.

 

[kritikvernunft]

so you are saying if I believe I can fly, that by just doing dua, I will get to fly? Nah. Just because someone believes something is true, doesn't make it true, or reaity.

The first problem that you would have to deal with, is that nobody, but absolutely nobody will believe you. If you are not good at dealing with this, their disbelief may very well destroy your faith.

James M. Cox, publisher at that time of the Dayton Daily News expressed the attitude of newspapermen —and the public— in those days when he admitted years later, "Frankly, none of us believed it."

Therefore, you will need to learn of how to feed off the disbelief of others, in order to bolster your own belief. The more they disbelieve, the more you should feel vindicated, and staunchly believe. Then, you will indeed fly:

The Wright brothers, Orville and Wilbur, were two American brothers are generally credited with inventing, building, and flying the world's first successful airplane. They made the first controlled, sustained flight of a powered, heavier-than-air aircraft on December 17, 1903, four miles south of Kitty Hawk, North Carolina.

You should always be happy that they do not believe you, because that is exactly the reason why you are on to something. The less they believe you, the more true it is what you are doing. I personally find so much confirmation in everybody else's disbelief -- you would not believe it. The biggest resource of the entrepreneur is to embrace and turn other people's disbelief into the fuel needed to turn their belief into reality.

I believe exactly because you disbelieve! ;-)