Religion and atheism "the everlasting battle"

[Mohammed Bilal]

Islam and atheism have been in an everlasting battle on "how the earth was created?"
The Debate
I asked my friend how was the earth created he replied " Cells created energy and eventually made molecules which made craters, asteroids, planets, suns and stars collide otherwise known as the "big bang theory" from Charles Darwin.

Then i asked him how was space and planets and suns/stars created he again went back to the moving of cells and molecules which creates heat energy. Then i asked him where did the cells and molecules come from? He replied from dark matter. Then i asked where did dark matter come from and he said the universe and finally i asked where did the universe come from? He said "from cells, the cells, universe and dark matter are a cycle and come from each other"

So i said where did all 3 of those substance come from?
But cleverly he dodged the question and said where did Allah (swt) come from. I didn't know what to say obviously Allah (swt) was there from the first place but then he would say that the 3 substances were there from the first place so i paused for a moment. Then I said this question your asking the wrong person go to scholars in case i say something incorrect.

Then he began to say that he won the debate whereas we actually neutralised each other. Later on i tried to make him understand that we equalised each other out and he began making racist remarks so i just walked away. In the end he asked for fogiveness.

If anyone has a comeback for " where did Allah (swt) come from please inform me. Thankyou :brother:

 

[Eric H]

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Greetings and peace Mohammed Bilal;

If anyone has a comeback for " where did Allah (swt) come from please inform me. Thankyou :

Forget trying to prove the existence of God to an atheist, it can’t be done.

Atheists have to want God to exist before they find him, sounds kind of daft.

Later on i tried to make him understand that we equalised each other out and he began making racist remarks so i just walked away. In the end he asked for fogiveness.

I think you may have one other way of putting Islam over to your friend, by saying it teaches you to be slow to anger, not to retaliate, and you are able to forgive.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

 

[Cheb]

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Very true Eric.
However, I do have a response that I would give anyone who asks me this questions.
I explained it in another thread but I will copy it here too. The part that most relates to this thread is in bold:

Greeting to everyone on this forum. I am a first time viewer and poster. I am glad that this discussion is taking place in a civilized fashion despite having 2 opposite views.
I was not able to see every post about this issue so if I repeat anything someone else had said then I apologize.
Now to get my view in.

I would like to say that despite what some may think, there is much more evidence that suggests that there is a God than not. Therefore if we are going to use an Atheists logic (please correct me if I am wrong) that if we cannot prove it then we dont believe in it, then it would be a more logical decisions to believe that there is a God. I mean can you prove that he doesnt exist? No you cant. So why not go with the logical decision?

Here are some things that I found very interesting in science. I would like to briefly talk about Einstein's general theory of relativity. A very interesting point that the theory supports is that Space and time are finite. This means that there is an end to time and space. It suggests that all time already exists. The past and future at one time. Think of it as if we are in a huge box were both time and space exist in a finite form. Now we know that God has already written what is going to happen to us. We also know that God is also seeing things that are happening in both the present and the future. I dont believe that it is a simple coincidence that one of the world's best scientists of all time has a theory that supports the existence of God (Even though he may not have thought about it in that way).
I hope that you guys would read about this carefully because it is very interesting.
Another point I would like to make is my own so I dont have anything to support it. I always hear the question "if God exists then who created HIM, what existed before God?" My answer to that is that the question itself is false. We believe that God has created all things. I am not only talking about living or physical things. God also created emotion, our conscious, and also time! Yes I do not believe time is something that has always existed. It is God who created time. Therefore it is not God who did not exist in the beginning of time; it is time that did not exist. These things are hard to understand because our brains have their limits, we simply cannot think in the 4th dimension and therefore refuse to accept anything within it.

HeiGou "I think that being good makes you happy. And conversely whatever makes you happy, in the sense of really happy and in the long run, must be good. It seems obvious to me that it is better to love, and be loved, by one woman than have sex with many you hardly know. It seems better to me to work hard, earn your own money, live in your own house, than to steal. It seems obvious to me that drinking to excess or taking drugs is only going to impair your mind and ruin your life.

Now I do not need God to believe any of those things. They seem self evident and clear to me. Do you think they are irrational and can only be supported by an appeal to the divine?"

I disagree with this. If you recall "civilized" people did not exist until religion was found. People use to burry their kids alive sometimes, and it was religion that stopped that. Just like it stopped many other wrong things that we do. That fact is, the reason why you think it comes naturally now is because religion and God has taught us that this is the right way. There are billions of people that believe in God and it is through them that these "good" qualities come from. You were not born an atheist. You were born a human being taught these good qualities that have been passed on through generations of believers.
To support my point I would like to point out the African tribes that follow medieval beliefs that have little to do with what any of the three main religions believe. Not all, but many have regular sacrifices and rituals that they view as right. They have not been touched by religion and therefore are stuck in ancient times. That is what happens when religion is not introduced to a community. They only seem self evident and clear to you because it is religion that made them that way. If not for religion you we would still not know how to differentiate clearly between right and wrong. With all due respect, I believe you have turned your back on what has given you those good qualities that you posses.

 

[Mohammed Bilal]

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

But then he will say i am dodging the question won't he. :ws:

 

[root]

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Islam and atheism have been in an everlasting battle on "how the earth was created?"

I disagree, atheists woke up in the modern world knowing the knowledge gained through science did not match what religion tried to tell us......

As far as the formation of the universe goes we are still learning though reasonably confident on how Galaxies and solar systems were able to form. New information is discoverd everyday such as recently:

Physicists have confirmed that neutrinos, which are thought to have played a key role during the creation of the Universe, have mass.

This is the first major finding of the US-based Main Injector Neutrino Oscillation Search (Minos) experiment.

The findings suggest that the Standard Model, which describes how the building blocks of the Universe behave and interact, needs a revision.

Neutrinos are believed to be vital to our understanding of the Universe.

As for the origins, we cant say for sure. We just don't accept the creationist view since it has not and does not require any supporting evidence, and it don't have any........

 

[HeiGou]

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

I would like to say that despite what some may think, there is much more evidence that suggests that there is a God than not. Therefore if we are going to use an Atheists logic (please correct me if I am wrong) that if we cannot prove it then we dont believe in it, then it would be a more logical decisions to believe that there is a God. I mean can you prove that he doesnt exist? No you cant. So why not go with the logical decision?

But why is that the logical decision? We can't prove that He does exist. We can't prove He doesn't. Surely Occam's Razor suggests we should reduce complexity where possible and so assume, pending further research, God does not exist? What is the evidence that suggests he does?

Now we know that God has already written what is going to happen to us.

No we do not know that. As a Muslims you may believe that, you may even know it in a religious sense, but "we" do not know it.

We also know that God is also seeing things that are happening in both the present and the future. I dont believe that it is a simple coincidence that one of the world's best scientists of all time has a theory that supports the existence of God (Even though he may not have thought about it in that way).

Exactly how does that prove the existence of God? God by definition is not bound by the laws of nature. It would not matter what Einstein found, your God would be able to exist in that Universe.

Another point I would like to make is my own so I dont have anything to support it. I always hear the question "if God exists then who created HIM, what existed before God?" My answer to that is that the question itself is false. We believe that God has created all things. I am not only talking about living or physical things. God also created emotion, our conscious, and also time! Yes I do not believe time is something that has always existed. It is God who created time. Therefore it is not God who did not exist in the beginning of time; it is time that did not exist. These things are hard to understand because our brains have their limits, we simply cannot think in the 4th dimension and therefore refuse to accept anything within it.

So the question is not false, it is actually a very good one, your answer is simply that it is all too difficult to think about and we cannot understand?

I think that being good makes you happy. And conversely whatever makes you happy, in the sense of really happy and in the long run, must be good. It seems obvious to me that it is better to love, and be loved, by one woman than have sex with many you hardly know. It seems better to me to work hard, earn your own money, live in your own house, than to steal. It seems obvious to me that drinking to excess or taking drugs is only going to impair your mind and ruin your life.

Now I do not need God to believe any of those things. They seem self evident and clear to me. Do you think they are irrational and can only be supported by an appeal to the divine?

I disagree with this. If you recall "civilized" people did not exist until religion was found. People use to burry their kids alive sometimes, and it was religion that stopped that. Just like it stopped many other wrong things that we do.

Actually I do not agree with this at all. Civilised people existed before religion or at least before Christianity and Islam as we know it.

 

[------]

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Forget trying to prove the existence of God to an atheist, it can’t be done.

Atheists have to want God to exist before they find him, sounds kind of daft.

Exactly. Thats the point. God exists and athiests know that he exists. They simply refuse to believe it. Which to me, seems kinda dumb I'm sorry to say.

 

[HeiGou]

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Islam and atheism have been in an everlasting battle on "how the earth was created?"

Well that's not fair - the battle has not been everlasting. It is only 1400 years old or so.

I asked my friend how was the earth created he replied " Cells created energy and eventually made molecules which made craters, asteroids, planets, suns and stars collide otherwise known as the "big bang theory" from Charles Darwin.

Charles Darwin came up with the theory of evolution, not of the Big Bang. The Big Bang theory says that the entire Universe was once a singularity - a single point of mass and then it exploded into a cloud of incredibly hot plasma out of which, eventually, the Galaxy as we see it cooled and formed.

Then i asked him how was space and planets and suns/stars created he again went back to the moving of cells and molecules which creates heat energy. Then i asked him where did the cells and molecules come from? He replied from dark matter. Then i asked where did dark matter come from and he said the universe and finally i asked where did the universe come from? He said "from cells, the cells, universe and dark matter are a cycle and come from each other"

Actually the atoms and molecules of the Universe were created in that first Big Bang or were subsequently created through the process of fusion in later Stars. There is a theory that the Universe contains large amounts of Dark Matter but that has not been proven, Presumably that too, if it exists, was created in the Big Bang.

So i said where did all 3 of those substance come from?
But cleverly he dodged the question and said where did Allah (swt) come from. I didn't know what to say obviously Allah (swt) was there from the first place but then he would say that the 3 substances were there from the first place so i paused for a moment. Then I said this question your asking the wrong person go to scholars in case i say something incorrect.

The matter in the Universe all comes from the Big Bang ultimately.

 

[czgibson]

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Greetings,

Exactly. Thats the point. God exists and athiests know that he exists. They simply refuse to believe it. Which to me, seems kinda dumb I'm sorry to say.

Atheists know god exists? What on earth gives you that idea?

If I knew god existed then I clearly wouldn't be an atheist!

Peace

 

[HeiGou]

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Exactly. Thats the point. God exists and athiests know that he exists. They simply refuse to believe it. Which to me, seems kinda dumb I'm sorry to say.

You know, at some point, if you deal with non-Muslims for any extended period of time, you may have to accept that we are not all pretending. We are actually real people and we have real opinions. Just because you do not understand us doesn't make us stupid.

God may or may not exist. But I certainly do not know either way. And I am not pretending just to annoy you. I am happy to respect your opinion, but I think you ought to respect mine too.

 

[Cheb]

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

But why is that the logical decision? We can't prove that He does exist. We can't prove He doesn't. Surely Occam's Razor suggests we should reduce complexity where possible and so assume, pending further research, God does not exist? What is the evidence that suggests he does?

Actually if you are going to choose the simple path, it is much easier to believe that God does exist. Science does not have the answers of how the earth started and likely never will. We already know how all came to existence and therefore it saves quite a lot of time trying to figure it out.

No we do not know that. As a Muslims you may believe that, you may even know it in a religious sense, but "we" do not know it.

Now come on it does not take a genius to figure out that I was talking about Muslims. I am making a point.

Exactly how does that prove the existence of God? God by definition is not bound by the laws of nature. It would not matter what Einstein found, your God would be able to exist in that Universe.

I am not trying to prove that God exists!! If it were that easy, you would be a believer by now. Read Eric's post and you would understand better. What this does is support the existence of God. I don’t see how you got that I was saying God would be bound by laws of nature. Please explain.

So the question is not false, it is actually a very good one, your answer is simply that it is all too difficult to think about and we cannot understand?

If you choose to see that is the answer so be it. The part you are addressing is me pointing out that there is a 4th dimension that God has not given us the ability to understand. For example when I said time did not exist, can you imagine how time wouldn’t exist? Of course not, neither can I. That part, we cant understand. However, that was not my answer. I am giving you my view from an Islamic perspective just like you are giving your view from a Atheists perspective. I don’t expect you to believe but I would expect you to understand. My actual answer was that God created time just like everything else. The question was "What was there before God?". Notice the word before. The word 'before' means previous to in time. This means that the question is implying that time existed. But that is why I pointed that the question was false. You can’t use the word 'before'. There was no before, there was no time, there was God the creator of all.

Actually I do not agree with this at all. Civilised people existed before religion or at least before Christianity and Islam as we know it.

No, man without laws (in most cases) is by default bad (opinion). Religion and the sense that there is a greater being watching over us is what make us good.

 

[HeiGou]

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

But why is that the logical decision? We can't prove that He does exist. We can't prove He doesn't. Surely Occam's Razor suggests we should reduce complexity where possible and so assume, pending further research, God does not exist? What is the evidence that suggests he does?

Actually if you are going to choose the simple path, it is much easier to believe that God does exist. Science does not have the answers of how the earth started and likely never will. We already know how all came to existence and therefore it saves quite a lot of time trying to figure it out.

Well that is the simplest - the "everything is just too hard to understand" solution - but it is not the least complex because you have taken a highly complex Universe and added a Being of infinite more complexity on top of that. Science has more of the answers now than we did 50 years ago, and a lot more than we did 500 years ago. What makes you think that will we not have all the answers one day? Moreover science is useful knowledge. Sure, religious knowledge may come on handy on the Day of Judgement, but in the meantime it is pretty darn useful and provides things like cures for polio. Saving time should not be the measure of any paradigm.

Exactly how does that prove the existence of God? God by definition is not bound by the laws of nature. It would not matter what Einstein found, your God would be able to exist in that Universe.

I am not trying to prove that God exists!! If it were that easy, you would be a believer by now. Read Eric's post and you would understand better. What this does is support the existence of God. I don’t see how you got that I was saying God would be bound by laws of nature. Please explain.

I am not saying he is. I am saying for any given definition of the Laws of Nature, your God would exist because you take the easy way out and say He is so infinitely great He is unknowable.

So the question is not false, it is actually a very good one, your answer is simply that it is all too difficult to think about and we cannot understand?

If you choose to see that is the answer so be it. The part you are addressing is me pointing out that there is a 4th dimension that God has not given us the ability to understand. For example when I said time did not exist, can you imagine how time wouldn’t exist? Of course not, neither can I. That part, we cant understand. However, that was not my answer. I am giving you my view from an Islamic perspective just like you are giving your view from a Atheists perspective. I don’t expect you to believe but I would expect you to understand. My actual answer was that God created time just like everything else. The question was "What was there before God?". Notice the word before. The word 'before' means previous to in time. This means that the question is implying that time existed. But that is why I pointed that the question was false. You can’t use the word 'before'. There was no before, there was no time, there was God the creator of all.

Except that God must have existed before time. He must be in some way outside the Universe as we know it and hence able to look forward and back in time. So if God existed before time as we know it did, why couldn't some other Being of even more Infinite Greatness?

Actually I do not agree with this at all. Civilised people existed before religion or at least before Christianity and Islam as we know it.

No, man without laws (in most cases) is by default bad (opinion). Religion and the sense that there is a greater being watching over us is what make us good.

That is an opinion and not one that I share. Are you sure that the sense that there is a Greater Being over us makes us good? Because some people cut the heads off some schoolgirls in Indonesia the other day and I suspect it is because they thought there was some Greater Being watching over them. To prove your point you would have to show that everything your Greater Being commanded was for the good, or at least better than what was there before.

 

[Eric H]

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Greetings and peace Brother Cheb;

Faith in God seems very strange, God does not seem to put any pressures on us to believe in any particular way, but rather it seems we put pressures on each other to believe in some way.

It seems strange that you should find your faith in God through Islam, my faith is through Christianity and there seems thousands of other ways to God. We need to pray for each other that God will grant us all salvation.

Faith seems to be a journey always one day at a time and we never really get to a final destination until death.

I never really found a faith in God until I was about fifty; it seems that God works in mysterious ways.

May God bless you all.

Eric

 

[Ghazi]

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Salaam

Theres no battle between atheism and islam any atheist is doing him self harm noone else.

 

[Skillganon]

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Well that is the simplest - the "everything is just too hard to understand" solution - but it is not the least complex because you have taken a highly complex Universe and added a Being of infinite more complexity on top of that. Science has more of the answers now than we did 50 years ago, and a lot more than we did 500 years ago. What makes you think that will we not have all the answers one day? Moreover science is useful knowledge. Sure, religious knowledge may come on handy on the Day of Judgement, but in the meantime it is pretty darn useful and provides things like cures for polio. Saving time should not be the measure of any paradigm.

Science is usefull, knowledge I hold in high regard, but it never necissitate that God does not Exist. I been studying science most of my life, and I never came across any proof of such notion.
If anything it does, it make's my belief more concrete!

I am not saying he is. I am saying for any given definition of the Laws of Nature, your God would exist because you take the easy way out and say He is so infinitely great He is unknowable.

Nope, You got it wrong. It is because we don't base God as a form, or any part of nature. We don't put God in the realm of creation. His is the creator of everything created. You and me!

Except that God must have existed before time. He must be in some way outside the Universe as we know it and hence able to look forward and back in time. So if God existed before time as we know it did, why couldn't some other Being of even more Infinite Greatness?

Can you elaborate to what you exactly saying?

That is an opinion and not one that I share. Are you sure that the sense that there is a Greater Being over us makes us good? Because some people cut the heads off some schoolgirls in Indonesia the other day and I suspect it is because they thought there was some Greater Being watching over them. To prove your point you would have to show that everything your Greater Being commanded was for the good, or at least better than what was there before.

Do you know why they did that? it's because of you! You told them to do it!

 

[czgibson]

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Greetings,

Theres no battle between atheism and islam any atheist is doing him self harm noone else.

What harm do you think I'm doing myself, out of interest?

Peace

 

[Ghazi]

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Greetings,


What harm do you think I'm doing myself, out of interest?

Peace

Salaam

being a non-muslim possability of dying in that state.

 

[HeiGou]

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Science is usefull, knowledge I hold in high regard, but it never necissitate that God does not Exist. I been studying science most of my life, and I never came across any proof of such notion.
If anything it does, it make's my belief more concrete!

It does not demand that God does not exist, but it removes Him as a working hypothesis. You cannot say, scientifically, this is this way because God wants it to be so. You have to find a scientific explanation.

Nope, You got it wrong. It is because we don't base God as a form, or any part of nature. We don't put God in the realm of creation. His is the creator of everything created. You and me!

Which is what I said. Your definition of God is independent of the Natural World. He is reconcilable with any model of that world because He is above and apart from it.

Can you elaborate to what you exactly saying?

I think I am moving forward to the Invisible Pink Unicorn argument - how do you know the that IPU did not create the entire Universe including any other Gods that may or may not exist, last Tuesday?

Do you know why they did that? it's because of you! You told them to do it!

I think if I muster enough character I can forgive you for saying that. Have you seen the pictures of those dead girls? It is not funny.

 

[Eric H]

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

Greetings and peace HeiGou;

Because some people cut the heads off some schoolgirls in Indonesia the other day and I suspect it is because they thought there was some Greater Being watching over them. To prove your point you would have to show that everything your Greater Being commanded was for the good, or at least better than what was there before.

I think we have to be very clear in our own mind as to who was responsible for the girls being killed.

If there is no God it seems very clear that the killer killed for his own motives.

If there is a God, why should God want a man to kill girls, God is eternal and surely he can wait another hundred years for the girls to die?

To me it seems that when someone kills and then says in his defence God told me to kill these evil people, then he is really saying don’t blame me blame God.

I sense that God has given us the freedom to do as we choose in this world so that when we stand before God we are then accountable for our own actions. We won’t be able to stand before God and say you told me to kill those school girls.

It is the final judgement that counts.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

 

[Skillganon]

Re: Islam and atheism "the everlasting battle"

It does not demand that God does not exist, but it removes Him as a working hypothesis. You cannot say, scientifically, this is this way because God wants it to be so. You have to find a scientific explanation.

It remove's him as a working hypothesis?
When and where? How?
No, You see everything is govern by natural law of nature,e.t.c so if I say, this happen's because of this law of nature, it does not remove God! This happen's because God created it this way to happen's that everything to follow this law or that!
You see nature is at God's whim and not God at nature's whim.
I agree that one's need to find a scientific explanation, but noway it removes God.

Which is what I said. Your definition of God is independent of the Natural World. He is reconcilable with any model of that world because He is above and apart from it..

Yes, and ?

I think I am moving forward to the Invisible Pink Unicorn argument - how do you know the that IPU did not create the entire Universe including any other Gods that may or may not exist, last Tuesday?

What does IPU mean?
CAn you elaborate?
What's Tuesday got to do with it :?

I think if I muster enough character I can forgive you for saying that. Have you seen the pictures of those dead girls? It is not funny.

Hey. Yeah I seen many picture's and you know what they said, "Atheist's told them to do it". One of them pointed at you?