[therebbe]

Re: When help is required ...

He, himself, was criticised by the religious leaders of the day, when he broke what they considered to be important laws,

In Judaism you are obligated to break the Sabbath to save a life. What the Rabbi's were angry at Jesus for was his complete negation of the Sabbath in all circumstances.

 

[glo]

Re: When help is required ...

In Judaism you are obligated to break the Sabbath to save a life. What the Rabbi's were angry at Jesus for was his complete negation of the Sabbath in all circumstances.

I wasn't criticising Jewish law, theRebbe.
At the risk of taking this thread off topic - what do you mean by 'complete negation'? Allowing his disciples to pick a few grains because they were hungry? Healing the sick? Instructing a lame man to 'take up his bed and walk'?

If I don't reply, it's because I am logging off shortly. I'll try and catch up tomorrow.

peace.

 

[therebbe]

Re: When help is required ...

what do you mean by 'complete negation'? Allowing his disciples to pick a few grains because they were hungry? Healing the sick? Instructing a lame man to 'take up his bed and walk'?

Complete negation means not following the laws of the Sabbath ever. He decided to make the ruling that the laws of Shabbat no longer apply. When it clearly says in the Torah no man can ever do that. Look at Christianity today.

Not many people following the Sabbath laws are there?

That is because Jesus judged that they are no longer nessesary, which is one of many reasons he could never have been a Prophet or Messiah according to Jewish law.

 

[evangel]

Re: When help is required ...

In Judaism you are obligated to break the Sabbath to save a life. What the Rabbi's were angry at Jesus for was his complete negation of the Sabbath in all circumstances.

Can we move this to a new topic, this is a very interesting all to itself.

 

[glo]

Sabbath Laws

Not many people following the Sabbath laws are there?

I know of no Christian who follows the Sabbath laws, as they are written in the Old Testament, no.

That is because Jesus judged that they are no longer nessesary, which is one of many reasons he could never have been a Prophet or Messiah according to Jewish law.

I am tempted to simply deny that that is the case.
But rather than doing that glibbly, perhaps we should go through all the laws that refer to the Sabbath?
Perhaps we can start by comparing Torah and Old Testament on the matter?

(I am drinking my first coffee of the morning, and will get ready for work soon - so it's over to you guys for now! :thankyou: I'll try and do some reading up of the old laws when I can)

I agree with evangel - this is a very interestig topic!

Peace.

 

[E'jaazi]

Re: When help is required ...

That is because Jesus judged that they are no longer nessesary, which is one of many reasons he could never have been a Prophet or Messiah according to Jewish law.

I am sorry to inform you that you are wrong. It was not Jesus who said it was not necessary, but Paul. Although Paul claimed to have been taught by Jesus, Jesus himself said that the Law would be in effect until Heaven & Earth pass away (as in the book of Revelations) and that has not happend yet. You can refer to the Book of Matthew 5:17 for the quote.

On the other hand, you are right that most (not all) Christians do not follow the law. That is because the prefer to follow the teachings of Paul over the teachings of Jesus. That quote in Matthew 5:17 is very clear.

 

[therebbe]

The Jewish tradition of "The Messiah" has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands "The Messiah" to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as "The Messiah".

First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)
He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)
To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)
The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)
Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus?
He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)
At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was DESTROYED! Just the opposite of this prophecy!

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)
Have you seen a newspaper lately? Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?

He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)
The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)
there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold.
All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.
​

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.
Certainly NOT Jesus.

 

[QuranStudy]

Do Jews believe in the virgin birth?

 

[therebbe]

Do Jews believe in the virgin birth?

No.

am sorry to inform you that you are wrong. It was not Jesus who said it was not necessary, but Paul. Although Paul claimed to have been taught by Jesus, Jesus himself said that the Law would be in effect until Heaven & Earth pass away (as in the book of Revelations) and that has not happend yet. You can refer to the Book of Matthew 5:17 for the quote.


On the other hand, you are right that most (not all) Christians do not follow the law. That is because the prefer to follow the teachings of Paul over the teachings of Jesus. That quote in Matthew 5:17 is very clear.

Read this:

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

​

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

 

[glo]

Re: When help is required ...

Hi Blackjubba

I have been itching to reply to your post all day. Finally, I am at home and can do so at my leisure.

What the Rabbi's were angry at Jesus for was his complete negation of the Sabbath in all circumstances.

I am sorry to inform you that you are wrong. It was not Jesus who said it was not necessary, but Paul.

Can you tell me where Paul stated that the Jewish laws were not necessary? It's just that I cannot think of any specific passages referring to that.

Although Paul claimed to have been taught by Jesus, Jesus himself said that the Law would be in effect until Heaven & Earth pass away (as in the book of Revelations) and that has not happend yet. You can refer to the Book of Matthew 5:17 for the quote.

When you look at Jesus' actions throughout his mission years, he clearly broke certain laws!
He broke the Sabbath laws by allowing his disciples to pick grain for their own consumption, by healing the sick, and by encouraging a healed man to carry his mat home.
He broke the dietary laws (according to Christian understanding), when he said "What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean.'" (Matthew 15:11)

Yet you are right that Jesus said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. " (Matthew 5:17-20)

So what about that discrepancy???
Does he or doesn't he abolish the laws???

If you read further in Matthew 5, you will find that Jesus imposes greater commandments on humans than the old laws: "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
He talks about it not being enough to not commit adultery, but not even to think any such thoughts!
Not enough to not kill somebody, but to not even think angry thoughts about them!
Not enough to demand repayment in kind when a wrong has been committed (an eye for an eye), but instead to turn the other cheek!

Do Christians follow these laws??? - I don't think so!
Why not?? - Because that would be almost humanly impossible!
We cannot fulfill the laws to such an extend - but we can work towards that goal.

I believe what Jesus was saying was that rather than plodding through life, obeying the laws God gave us, we need to look deeper!
Not just look to 'be good' according to the law, but to seek to cleansing ourselves in our hearts of hearts!
It is not enough to look good and holy and religious on the outside ... unless we strive to be all those things on the inside too.

To me that is one of the most important messages of Jesus Christ, and one that speaks very much to my heart. :statisfie

And boy, am I glad I finally wrote this post ... I have been pondering it all day!:rollseyes
Sorry for any rambling. :giggling:

peace.

 

[Link]

All Prophets (as) came to call people to the light.

Musa (as) established an outer cover, if followed with heart, would lead to that.

When people and scholars became so corrupt inside and wore the outer cover of Musa (as) while accepting tyrants as rulers, scholars hugging money for themselves, abandoning the revelation, corrupting it, oppressing poor, while accepting some trival outer laws all while abandoing the Prophets (as) and doing nothing about the tyrants who killed them (like when Yahya (as), Isa (as) cousin, was killed by the king because he would not say it's ok to do indency and the scholars just sat and watched by while his holy head was carried infront people!), Isa (as) had to destroy this building all together and build a new temple. Show the inward path by destroying the outercloack that became a source of destruction and blindness. He was the holy one, the close one to God, the path to God, and only those who were of God would hear him. He healed the sick aswell as the humble sick hearted. He revided the dead aswell the humble dead souls. He saved who he can, who believed in him live and who denied perished and was cursed, and he was the light of God as long as he was on earth. When he (as) was taken up, Shamoon (Simon) (as) was the light and the way.

Whoever is blind to him will remain blind in the next. Those who denied him and those who made him God while he (as) said God is greater then him, both did so for the same reason, they are blind following their desires and people who followed their desires and remained in darkness, so in this condition, they wish to extinguish God's light.

They are blind like Iblees (LA) was blind, they followed his path in arrogance and denial of God's light. They will remain in darkness for their love of world and prefering it to that of God's signs and communications.

 

[glo]

Thank you, Link

Your posts explains the Muslim position very well.

I am touched by how positively Islam speaks of Jesus Christ. :statisfie

Just one question: who is Iblees? Thanks.

 

[Fishman]

Thank you, Link

Your posts explains the Muslim position very well.

I am touched by how positively Islam speaks of Jesus Christ. :statisfie

Just one question: who is Iblees? Thanks.

Iblees=Satan.

 

[glo]

Iblees=Satan.

Thanks, Fishman! I should have guessed ...

 

[evangel]

In the old testament the Lord says many times that He is tired of and does not want the people's sacrifices, He wants their obedience. He wants them to look to Him and not themselves for right living. Now as I see it, through Moses, God set out very precise and strict instructions as to the way these sacrifices were to be done (BTW therebbe how long since you've burned a bull without blemish on an altar of stone and who has discontinued that in the temples and synagogues). So when God says through many of the prophets "I don't want your sacrifices, I want you." He says worship Me not the Law. He wants the Law to be written on our hearts, not our back up plan. therebbe, you mention that you don't see Christians observing the sabbath. God says of His law abiding people, "These people will not enter my Sabbath rest" because of disobedience, mistreatment of the poor, widows and orphans and various other things that He found offensive. We do observe the Sabbath and have entered His Sabbath rest because of Jesus. Our lives are given over to Him as living sacrifices to be used as He sees fit. Our Sabbath rest is everyday because there are no works that we can do to have eternal relationship with the Lord, the work was finished on the cross.

Hebrews 3:7-9
Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says,
"Today, when you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
on the day of testing in the wilderness,
where your fathers put me to the test
and saw my works for forty years."

 

[Joe98]

All Prophets (as) came to call people to the light.

There is so much confusion and uncertainty it must be time for the next prophet.


-\

 

[Umm Yoosuf]

Do Jews believe in the virgin birth?

No.

^o) you don't? I always though jews believed the virgin birth....so what do you believe in then , with regards to Jesus's birth?

 

[QuranStudy]

you don't? I always though jews believed the virgin birth....so what do you believe in then , with regards to Jesus's birth?

Jews believe Jesus was born just the way all other humans are born. His birth was nothing miraculous.

 

[glo]

Jews believe Jesus was born just the way all other humans are born. His birth was nothing miraculous.

Neither his life, nor his death.

 

[Umm Yoosuf]

Intresting. Can someone provide me with a link regarding what actually Jews say about Jesus's birth, life etc