[sur]

I am in need of some references quoting Ismaeel(a.s) by name that it was ismaeel who was taken for sacrifice by Ibraheem(a.s).....

Thanks.

 

[sur]

:bump1:

 

[Zamtsa]

In Bukhari we could see that Hajar 'alaihi Salaam was given by Namrudz to Ibrahim 'alaihi Shalawatu wa Sallam after he released Sarah 'alaihi Salaam from his trying to make her as his new wife, so this means that Sarah 'alaihi Shalawatu wa Sallam was young.

Allahu Tabaraka Ta'ala quoted what Sarah 'alaihi Shalawatu wa Sallam said:

Hud(11):72 She said: "Alas for me! Shall I bear a child seeing I am an old woman and my husband here is an old man? That would indeed be a wonderful thing!"


Assalamu'alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh.

 

[Banu_Hashim]

“Ibrahim said: "I am going to take refuge with my Lord, He will surely guide
me. O Lord! Grant me a righteous son. So We gave him the good news of a
forbearing (and patient) son. When he reached the age to work with him,
Ibrahim said to him: "O my son! I have seen a vision that I should offer you as
a sacrifice, now tell me what your view is." He replied: "O my father! Do as
you are commanded: you will find me, if Allah so wills, of the patient. And
when they both submitted to Allah and Ibrahim laid down his son prostrate
upon his forehead for sacrifice; We called out to him: "O Ibrahim stop! You
have fulfilled your vision." Thus do We reward the righteous. That was indeed
a manifest test. We ransomed his son for a great sacrifice and We left his
good name among the later generations. Salutations to Ibrahim. Thus We
reward the righteous. (37:99-110)

 

[sur]

In Bukhari we could see............

“Ibrahim said: ....... (37:99-110)

i asked for references mentioning Ismail by name.
Thank You for ur effort.

"After these things God tested Abraham, and said to him, ‘Abraham!’ And he said, ‘Here am I.’ He said, ‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering upon one of the mountains of which I shall tell you’." (Genesis 22:1-2, R.S.V.).

"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was ready to offer up his only son ..." (Hebrews 11:17, R.S.V.).

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up his son Isaac upon the altar?" (James 2:21, R.S.V.).

Actually truely speaking, according to bible, "The Only Son" was Ismail as he was born of Ibraheem's "seed"(sperm), while Isaac was born of "promise". Isaac was just a miracle & Ibraheem's sperm might even have nothing to do with Isaac's birth, coz Sarrah was barren & 83 years old.

More below........

Muslims believe that scribes later corrupted the original reading from Ishmael to Isaac.

Quran:5:13 But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.

Isaac was the only promised child of Abraham, a fact which the Quran agrees with (cf. Genesis 17:15-21; Surah 11:69-73, 37:112-113, 51:24-30). Ishmael was never a promised child.

True..... But the "promised" doesn't mean he was the ONLY child that was Ibraheems.... It means that he was born as a result of a "promise"(Miracle), while Ismail was born of actual "Seed" of ibraheem.

God promised that it would be Isaac's descendants who would inherit the land given to Abraham. (Genesis 13:14-18, 15:18-21, 28:13-14). Ishmael had no part in the inheritance

False.... & based on mis-interpretations..........
Genesis 13:14-16 14The LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him, "(A)Now lift up your eyes and look from the place where you are, (B)northward and southward and eastward and westward; 15(C)for all the land which you see, (D)I will give it to you and to your descendants forever. 16"I will make your descendants (E)as the dust of the earth, so that if anyone can number the dust of the earth, then your descendants can also be numbered.

The son who was to inherit, was to become a nation like "Dust of earth/Stars in the sky"(Gen:14:16 & 15:5), & this was Hajar's son Ismail:-
Gen:16:10.(Hagar)I will multiply thy seed(ishmael) exceedingly(Like stars).



Also "descendants" are thru "seed"....that's commom knowledge.... who was thru "seed" ....???Ismaeel:-

GEN 21:13 And also of the son of the bondwoman(Hajar) will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
GAL 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman(Hagar/Agar) was born after the flesh;....

God promised that it would be Isaac's descendants who would inherit the land given to Abraham

False......It would be Ismaeel's descendents who would inherit "the land"....Who was born of Ibraheem's own "seed"??? Ismaeel.

GEN 21:13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.

GEN 15:4 ....but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels(ishmael) shall be thine heir.

& "The Land" was promised to...??? Ismaeel (thy seed)...
GEN 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger(also GEN 15:13), all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

So THE SEED was going to be a stranger in "the land".....
Was Ibraheem a stranger in Egypt? No was living in Egypt ..... Was he stranger in Palestine? No his wife Sarah was from Palestinian area...... Was Hajar, bearer of The Seed a stranger in Egypt? No she was from Egypt(GEN 16:1&21:9).... Then what was this place "strange" to Ibraheem.. & to his seed, Ismaeel..?

It was Arabia.

GAL 4:25 For this Agar(the seed bearer) is mount Sinai in Arabia,...(also 4:25)

=============================
To summarize:-
"The Land" was promised to "the seed"(GEN 17:8)>>>>"The Seed" was born to bondswoman Hajar(GEN 21:13) so he was Ismaeel, NOT Isaac>>>>Same "Seed" born of Ibraheem's "own bowel" will be "The Heir"(GEN 15:4)>>>> "the seed" will be in land "strange" to them(GEN 15:13)>>>>>For Hajar,The Seed bearer, is Arabia(GAL 4:25)>>>>In Beer-Sheeba in Arabia, Hajar was left with few supplies(GEN 21:14)>>>There's a place Paran(Faraan) where she dwelt(GEN 21:21)>>>>In Arabia where "the seed" Ismaeel settled, his son Kedar was born(GEN 25:13)>>>>Same land of Kedar was to receive GOD's "loved one", GOD's "elect", A "man of war", a Prophet(IS 42:1-11)
=============================

All of above prove that bibilically "The Only Son" was actually Ismail, as he was born of seed & was promised the land.

So verses in 1st quotation box, about "the only son being taken for sacrifice" r actually refering to Ismaeel, but jews changed the words & replaced him by Isaac.

 

[Zamtsa]

Alhamdulillahi rabbil 'aalamiin.

 

[glo]

I was going to start a new thread, but then I remembered this one, so I will post my question here.

I was browsing through books on Islam in the local library, and I was surprised to come across the following statement with regards to Abraham and his son:

' For some centuries there was a debate among Muslim scholars, some saying it was Isaac whom Abraham was preparing to sacrifice, and others saying that it was Ishmael. It wasn't until centuries later that it became a fixed belief among Muslims that Ishmael was the subject of the story found in the Qu'ran (37:83-113). It is important to note, however, that the Qu'ran does not explicitely say that the son concerned was Ishmael.'

Although the verses Banu_Hashim quoted three posts down do mention Ishmael by name, my on-line version (The Meaning of the Holy Qu'ran by Abdullah Yusufali) does not.

I was going to ask whether the above statement was correct, and whether anybody could explain how Islamic scholars finally came to the conclusion that the boy in question is indeed Ishmael.
This thread has adressed my questions partially already, and from sur's and Civilsed's posts I understand that Muslims may have had to refer to the Bible to find the answer to the question of which son Abraham was willing to sacrifice.
Am I correct in thinking so?

If so, this leaves me with another question of how comfortable are Muslims with the concept of using the Bible (a 'corrupted book') to look for information which the Qu'ran doesn't provide?
Surely that's something which is only done as a last resort (i.e. when Qu'ran and hadiths don't offer a certain a piece of information), and which is done with the greatest of care?

I am interested in the historic process of scholars making the decision of discerning that it was Ishmael - if anybody has the knowledge to share with me.

Peace

 

[Zamtsa]

Ibrahim 'alaihi Salaam was having a children who is Ishaq 'alaihi Salaam when Sarah 'alaihi Salaam already old. While before that, he was marrying Hajar 'alaihi Salaam, and we know from Bukhari that Ibrahim 'alaihi Salaam was having Hajar 'alaihi Salaam when Sarah 'alaihi Salaam was still young, so naturally he got son from Hajar 'alaihi Salaam before got Ishaq 'alaihi Salaam from Sarah 'alaihi Shalawatu wa Salaam.

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings glo,

Although the verses Banu_Hashim quoted three posts down do mention Ishmael by name, my on-line version (The Meaning of the Holy Qu'ran by Abdullah Yusufali) does not.

Perhaps you misread - the verses quoted by brother Banu_Hashim don't mention Ismaeel by name.

I was going to ask whether the above statement was correct, and whether anybody could explain how Islamic scholars finally came to the conclusion that the boy in question is indeed Ishmael.

Personally, I don't think I've ever heard a scholar claim that it was Ishaaq who was to be sacrificed. Your book says, "It wasn't until centuries later that it became a fixed belief among Muslims that Ishmael was the subject of the story found in the Qu'ran", yet we find numerous reports from the Companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and early scholars saying in no uncertain terms that it was Ismaeel who was sacrificed. In one of the famous commentaries of these verses, it quotes such reports:

Sa`id bin Jubayr, `Amir Ash-Sha`bi, Yusuf bin Mihran, Mujahid, `Ata' and others reported from Ibn `Abbas that it was Isma`il, peace be upon him.

Ibn Jarir narrated that Ibn `Abbas said, "The one who was ransomed was Isma`il, peace be upon him. The Jews claimed that it was Ishaq, but the Jews lied.''

It was reported that Ibn `Umar said, "The sacrifice was Isma`il.''

Ibn Abi Najih said, narrating from Mujahid, "It was Isma`il, peace be upon him.''

This was also the view of Yusuf bin Mihran.

Muhammad bin Ishaq reported from Al-Hasan bin Dinar and `Amr bin `Ubayd from Al-Hasan Al-Basri that he did not doubt that the one of the two sons Ibrahim was commanded to sacrifice was Isma`il, peace be upon him.

Ibn Ishaq said, "I heard Muhammad bin Ka`b Al-Qurazi say, `The one whom Allah commanded Ibrahim to sacrifice of his two sons was Isma`il.' We find this in the Book of Allah, because when Allah finishes the story of the one of the two sons of Ibrahim who was to be sacrificed, He then says:

(And We gave him the glad tidings of Ishaq -- a Prophet from the righteous), and

(So, We gave her glad tidings of Ishaq and after Ishaq, of Ya`qub) (11:71).

He mentions the son and the son of the son, but He would not have commanded him to sacrifice Ishaq when He had promised that this son would in turn have a son. The one whom He commanded him to sacrifice can only have been Isma`il.''

Ibn Ishaq said, "I heard him say that often.''

`Abdullah bin Al-Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal, may Allah have mercy on him, said, "I asked my father about which son was to be sacrificed -- was it Isma`il or Ishaq'' He said, "Isma`il.'' This was mentioned in Kitab Az-Zuhd.

Ibn Abi Hatim said, "I heard my father say, `The correct view is that the one who was to be sacrificed was Isma`il, peace be upon him.''' He said, "And it was narrated that `Ali, Ibn `Umar, Abu Hurayrah, Abu At-Tufayl, Sa`id bin Al-Musayyib, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Al-Hasan, Mujahid, Ash-Sha`bi, Muhammad bin Ka`b Al-Qurazi, Abu Ja`far Muhammad bin `Ali and Abu Salih, may Allah be pleased with them all, said that the one who was to be sacrificed was Isma`il.''

Al-Baghawi said in his Tafsir, "This was the view of `Abdullah bin `Umar, Sa`id bin Al-Musayyib, As-Suddi, Al-Hasan Al-Basri, Mujahid, Ar-Rabi` bin Anas, Muhammad bin Ka`b Al-Qurazi and Al-Kalbi.'' This was also reported from Ibn `Abbas and from Abu `Amr bin Al-`Ala'.
​

This thread has adressed my questions partially already, and from sur's and Civilsed's posts I understand that Muslims may have had to refer to the Bible to find the answer to the question of which son Abraham was willing to sacrifice.
Am I correct in thinking so?

If so, this leaves me with another question of how comfortable are Muslims with the concept of using the Bible (a 'corrupted book') to look for information which the Qu'ran doesn't provide?
Surely that's something which is only done as a last resort (i.e. when Qu'ran and hadiths don't offer a certain a piece of information), and which is done with the greatest of care?

No, I don't believe you are correct in thinking this.

Let us first be clear that this is not a matter of the Qur'an "not providing information", because if one studies the matter a little more deeply, they will find many reasons to believe the verses are referring to Prophet Ismaeel, not Prophet Ishaaq. For example, see:

http://www.islamicboard.com/8336-post11.html

Moreover, the position of the Qur'an with regards to other scriptures should be understood. Ibn Jarir said, "The Qur'an is trustworthy over the Books that preceded it. Therefore, whatever in these previous Books conforms to the Qur'an is true, and whatever disagrees with the Qur'an is false.'' Consequently, the Qur'an is trustworthy, a witness, and dominant over every Scripture that preceded it. This Glorious Book, which Allah revealed as the Last and Final Book, is the most encompassing, glorious and perfect Book of all times. The Qur'an includes all the good aspects of previous Scriptures and even more, which no previous Scripture ever contained. This is why Allah made it trustworthy, a witness and dominant over all Scriptures.

It is permissible to quote Judaeo-Christian narratives if they do not contradict any verses of the Qur'an or hadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) - (although one can quote them to explain their falsehood). However, such narrations cannot be used as a source of knowledge because their authenticity is unknown. None of the Companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used these narrations as sources of knowledge. This is because the Qur'an is explicit that the Jews and the Christians tampered with their respective scriptures and changed the divine revelation. Therefore, it is impossible to ascertain which facts they added and which are still intact.

I think this pretty much answers your questions. Rather than having to look into another scripture to find answers for the Qur'an, the Qur'an is the criterion for judging what is correct in those scriptures.

And Allaah the Most Exalted Knows best.

Peace.

 

[doorster]

It is permissible to quote Judaeo-Christian narratives if they do not contradict any verses of the Qur'an or (authentic) hadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) - (although one can quote them to explain their falsehood). However, such narrations cannot be used as a source of knowledge because their authenticity is unknown. None of the Companions of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used these narrations as sources of knowledge. This is because the Qur'an is explicit that the Jews and the Christians tampered with their respective scriptures and changed the divine revelation. Therefore, it is impossible to ascertain which facts they added and which are still intact.

.... Rather than having to look into another scripture to find answers for the Qur'an, the Qur'an is the criterion for judging what is correct in those scriptures.

^^ Melikes it!

JazakAllah khair

http://www.islamicboard.com/compara...explain-sacrificial-system-2.html#post1052512

 

[- Qatada -]

Was Isaac or Ishmael to be sacrificed ?




As you know, Kedar is a descendent of Ishmael {Genesis 25:13}, and Ishmael is the the base for the Family Tree of Prophet Muhammad (sal Allahu alaihi wasalam) through Kedar.


An important Fact that I would like you to observe now is how the scribes switched names to illegitimize Ishmael.

The scribes and commentators say that Ishmael is not a legitimate son of Abraham and therefore the covenant was only with Isaac.



Now I will show you in the Scripture that it was Really Ishmael who was to be sacrificed and the covenant was first done with Ishmael and Ishmael was a legitimate son of Abraham even after Abraham's death.



1. The covenant was first made with Abraham and Ishmael;


Genesis 17:10 This [is] my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.


Genesis 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.


Note:-

So it's basically mentioned that the covenant [contract] between Prophet Abraham and God will continue through his family tree. That the future male children through his family will be circumcised. And that the covenant will be in his flesh (through his blood lineage) forever till the end of time.


The covenant is so special because the Jews claim that the covenant is in their family lineage only, whereas we as Muslims believe that the covenant was with the Jews so long as they stuck with their side of it, however - they continuously rejected it and Allah replaced them with another people who would submit to Allah, and since Ishmael was part of the covenant as mentioned before - the covenant would be with the 'Arabs, and after Muhammad (peace be upon him) - with those who followed him.




2. It was really Ishmael and not Isaac who was going to be sacrificed and the Jewish scribes because of vanity, switched the names;


Genesis 16:16 "and Abram [is] a son of eighty and six years in Hagar's bearing Ishmael to Abram."

So Abram/Abraham is 86 when he had a son called Ishmael (Isma'il) through Hagar/Hajar.



Who's son? Abraham's "son". Now as far as the sacrifice is concerned,


Genesis 17:24 "Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin."

That makes Abraham's son Ishmael, 13, how old is Isaac at this time?

Genesis 21:5 "Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him."


Abraham circumcised himself at the age of 99 (when Ishmael was 13), but he was 100 years old when Isaac was born to him.






that means during the circumcision/sacrifice, Abraham's only "begotten" son is Ishmael (and not Isaac as the Bible says.)

KJV Hebrews 11:17 "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac (???!): and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,"


Therefore we see that Isaac was not the only son (since Ishmael was older than Isaac), as a matter of fact, Isaac was not even born yet and Abraham's Only begotten son was Ishmael. Therefore further confirming that it was Ishmael who would be sacrificed by Abraham as a test from Allah (but he wasn't because Allah stopped it from occurring when Abraham passed the test in showing his sincerity to Allah.)


​

It also shows that the one who was going to be sacrificed (Ishmael) was special in the rank of Allah, he was the forefather of the Arabs, and Muhammad (peace be upon him, who is Arab.) Which further strengthens the Legitimacy of Prophet Muhammad which God says I will make great Nations from Ishmael.

Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

​

The Arabs are multiplied exceedingly compared to the Jewish population, they are plenty in number and are blessed to have the final revelation (Qur'an & Sunnah) in the Arabic language. They were also a great nation which spread Islam from Arabia to the different corners of the globe, to the extent that there are Muslims in every part of the world.





3. Ishmael was a legitimate son even after Abraham died;

Genesis 16:3 "And Sarai Abram's wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife."

Genesis 25:9 "Then his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him (Abraham) in *the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, facing Mamre,"

Genesis 25:12 "Now these are the records of the generations of *Ishmael, Abraham's son, whom Hagar the Egyptian, Sarah's maid, bore to Abraham;"


This shows that Hagar/Hajar was truly the wife of Prophet Abraham and the true, legitimate wife (of Abraham) and mother of Ishmael.




And Allah knows best.
​

 

[rpwelton]

Ultimately, only Allah knows for sure, and we do not know.

It is not worth getting into debate with People of the Book over this matter, because it is not one that makes much of a difference.